Isn't it time we realize Rick Berman was the genius of the ST we love

[Warped9]

Re: Isn't it time we realize Rick Berman was the genius of the ST we l

Also don't forget Kirk prime lived in a reality where he had his father to Mentor him and mold him into the professional, brash Captain Kirk we know and love.

JJKirk didn't have his father. He had a possibly abusive step father whom Kirk resented enough to steal his car and drive it off a quarry. Without a father figure in his early years he developed differently. He didn't have a sense of discipline until he met Pike. Pike became his father figure and mentor and set him on the path to becoming a Starfleet officer.

A child with a good father and a child without a father can be very different people.

Agree, 100%.

nuKirk is different, is an "asshole", a jerk, and undisciplined, because of a different backstory. He isn't even in the Academy until Pike pushes him, and challenges him to "do better." The man has all the potential of Prime Kirk, and is wasting it. Yeah, he's a jerk.

Another scene that I absolutely enjoy, especially Pine's performance, is the palatable sense of pain when he asks Prime Spock if he knew his father, and Spock answers "Yes." nuKirk's face is one of pain and loss.

I don't necessarily like nuKirk, but, I understand him.

I prefer to like a hero rather than want to punch him in the mouth.

Its still no excuse for shitty writing. There's nothing established that Prime Kirk had a father growing up. Indeed, although not canon, Diane Carey in her novel Final Frontier had Prime Kirk lose his father at a young age. And there are lots of people who overcome tragedy when young to still be decent and well rounded people.

 

[BillJ]

Re: Isn't it time we realize Rick Berman was the genius of the ST we l

And there are lots of people who overcome tragedy when young to still be decent and well rounded people.

And there's no proof that this version of the character won't eventually become that. We're watching one possible evolution of the character as opposed to the fully-formed version we got in TOS.

 

[Kemaiku]

Re: Isn't it time we realize Rick Berman was the genius of the ST we l

Also don't forget Kirk prime lived in a reality where he had his father to Mentor him and mold him into the professional, brash Captain Kirk we know and love.

JJKirk didn't have his father. He had a possibly abusive step father whom Kirk resented enough to steal his car and drive it off a quarry. Without a father figure in his early years he developed differently. He didn't have a sense of discipline until he met Pike. Pike became his father figure and mentor and set him on the path to becoming a Starfleet officer.

A child with a good father and a child without a father can be very different people.

True, and Into Darkness having him lose another father figure just added to it. There was something more profound about seeing him learn to trust himself and become the Kirk we know in the wake of both loses, seeing how Pike's influence helped him be the captain he is.

The same as Spock learning to balance his human and alien halves while dealing with the death of Vulcan.

We're getting to the essence of who they are, just going about it a different route.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Re: Isn't it time we realize Rick Berman was the genius of the ST we l

Also don't forget Kirk prime lived in a reality where he had his father to Mentor him and mold him into the professional, brash Captain Kirk we know and love.

JJKirk didn't have his father. He had a possibly abusive step father whom Kirk resented enough to steal his car and drive it off a quarry. Without a father figure in his early years he developed differently. He didn't have a sense of discipline until he met Pike. Pike became his father figure and mentor and set him on the path to becoming a Starfleet officer.

A child with a good father and a child without a father can be very different people.

Agree, 100%.

nuKirk is different, is an "asshole", a jerk, and undisciplined, because of a different backstory. He isn't even in the Academy until Pike pushes him, and challenges him to "do better." The man has all the potential of Prime Kirk, and is wasting it. Yeah, he's a jerk.

Another scene that I absolutely enjoy, especially Pine's performance, is the palatable sense of pain when he asks Prime Spock if he knew his father, and Spock answers "Yes." nuKirk's face is one of pain and loss.

I don't necessarily like nuKirk, but, I understand him.

I prefer to like a hero rather than want to punch him in the mouth.

Its still no excuse for shitty writing. There's nothing established that Prime Kirk had a father growing up. Indeed, although not canon, Diane Carey in her novel Final Frontier had Prime Kirk lose his father at a young age. And there are lots of people who overcome tragedy when young to still be decent and well rounded people.

Sure there is. Spock says his father was present when Kirk took command of the Enterprise.

 

[Warped9]

Re: Isn't it time we realize Rick Berman was the genius of the ST we l

Agree, 100%.

nuKirk is different, is an "asshole", a jerk, and undisciplined, because of a different backstory. He isn't even in the Academy until Pike pushes him, and challenges him to "do better." The man has all the potential of Prime Kirk, and is wasting it. Yeah, he's a jerk.

Another scene that I absolutely enjoy, especially Pine's performance, is the palatable sense of pain when he asks Prime Spock if he knew his father, and Spock answers "Yes." nuKirk's face is one of pain and loss.

I don't necessarily like nuKirk, but, I understand him.

I prefer to like a hero rather than want to punch him in the mouth.

Its still no excuse for shitty writing. There's nothing established that Prime Kirk had a father growing up. Indeed, although not canon, Diane Carey in her novel Final Frontier had Prime Kirk lose his father at a young age. And there are lots of people who overcome tragedy when young to still be decent and well rounded people.

Sure there is. Spock says his father was present when Kirk took command of the Enterprise.

In a reboot film that has no bearing whatsoever on what was or wasn't established in TOS. People can believe what they want, but JJ's film is a reboot with no connection to what came before no matter what he might claim.

 

[CaptainMurdock]

Re: Isn't it time we realize Rick Berman was the genius of the ST we l

Its still no excuse for shitty writing.

That's your opinion.

There's nothing established that Prime Kirk had a father growing up.

Spock told Kirk in the Cave that he Knew his father and that he was his influence for joining Starfleet.

Indeed, although not canon, Diane Carey in her novel Final Frontier had Prime Kirk lose his father at a young age.

Irrelevant and you debunk it by saying it's non canon anyhow.

And there are lots of people who overcome tragedy when young to still be decent and well rounded people.

And some don't. We all handle grief differently. Were only human.

In a reboot film that has no bearing whatsoever on what was or wasn't established in TOS.

This comment seems more like a justification to ignoring a counter argument.

People can believe what they want, but JJ's film is a reboot with no connection to what came before no matter what he might claim.

The opening of the film takes place in the prime timeline, It stops being prime when Nero enters it. Say what you will, but it does feature a lot of nods to the original series continuity on purpose or by coincidence.

 

[Warped9]

Re: Isn't it time we realize Rick Berman was the genius of the ST we l

The opening of the film takes place in the prime timeline, It stops being prime when Nero enters it. Say what you will, but it does feature a lot of nods to the original series continuity on purpose or by coincidence.

Bullshit. Everything we see shows it's not the same universe. It bears zero resemblance to the same universe in any way whatsoever.

 

[CaptainMurdock]

Re: Isn't it time we realize Rick Berman was the genius of the ST we l

Bullshit. Everything we see shows it's not the same universe. It bears zero resemblance to the same universe in any way whatsoever.

Once again. That's your opinion.

 

[Warped9]

Re: Isn't it time we realize Rick Berman was the genius of the ST we l

Bullshit. Everything we see shows it's not the same universe. It bears zero resemblance to the same universe in any way whatsoever.

Once again. That's your opinion.

I make a point of keeping my eyes open and my mind turned on. I also don't bow to someone just because they might throw a few stale crumbs my way.

 

[Kemaiku]

Re: Isn't it time we realize Rick Berman was the genius of the ST we l

This comment seems more like a justification to ignoring a counter argument.

It is, an it's a typical tactic of those who criticise the new movies. But he in particular used to claim that everything (literally everything) after TOS was not canon.

Continuing to argue what is canon with him is a pointless exercise that many here grew very tired of a long time ago.

The new movies share the same "Old Spock" and are as connected as the people who own the property say. Regardless of what a few old codgers who cannot accept reality endlessly rant over.

And Warped9....

You used to have a much more convincing false civility with this topic. But in the last few months you have been given to ranting, swearing and generally far more openly agressive behaviour over these films simply at the mention of them.

You have repeatidly said you would not continue to discuss "those fucking films" (your words) more than once. Yet you travel out of TOS forums more often to behave this way.

It's not very becoming, it's not pleasant, it derails all the discussions the people of the board try to have about them and I can only assume from your several year long vendetta about them that this is what you want.

You have to accept sooner or later that these "fucking films" are the current Trek, will be until the next reboot, and are a softer reboot than was either expected or the next one likely will be.

Your are entitled to prefer one over the other, or both as I do, but your own attitude has become more hostile with each passing year, and this is not healthy for either side and certainly not a good reflection on you.

Either stay in TOS, take a more neutral, balanced tone to the other posters, or just keep being petulant and childish, and we can keep up this back and forth until one of us drops dead from it.

But really, what have you to gain from doing this for another 5 years?

 

[Warped9]

Re: Isn't it time we realize Rick Berman was the genius of the ST we l

This comment seems more like a justification to ignoring a counter argument.

It is, an it's a typical tactic of those who criticise the new movies. But he in particular used to claim that everything (literally everything) after TOS was not canon.

Continuing to argue what is canon with him is a pointless exercise that many here grew very tired of a long time ago.

The new movies share the same "Old Spock" and are as connected as the people who own the property say. Regardless of what a few old codgers who cannot accept reality endlessly rant over.

And Warped9....

You used to have a much more convincing false civility with this topic. But in the last few months you have been given to ranting, swearing and generally far more openly agressive behaviour over these films simply at the mention of them.

You have repeatidly said you would not continue to discuss "those fucking films" (your words) more than once. Yet you travel out of TOS forums more often to behave this way.

It's not very becoming, it's not pleasant, it derails all the discussions the people of the board try to have about them and I can only assume from your several year long vendetta about them that this is what you want.

You have to accept sooner or later that these "fucking films" are the current Trek, will be until the next reboot, and are a softer reboot than was either expected or the next one likely will be.

Your are entitled to prefer one over the other, or both as I do, but your own attitude has become more hostile with each passing year, and this is not healthy for either side and certainly not a good reflection on you.

Either stay in TOS, take a more neutral, balanced tone to the other posters, or just keep being petulant and childish, and we can keep up this back and forth until one of us drops dead from it.

But really, what have you to gain from doing this for another 5 years?

Satisfaction.

 

[CaptainMurdock]

Re: Isn't it time we realize Rick Berman was the genius of the ST we l

Bullshit. Everything we see shows it's not the same universe. It bears zero resemblance to the same universe in any way whatsoever.

Once again. That's your opinion.

I make a point of keeping my eyes open and my mind turned on. I also don't bow to someone just because they might throw a few stale crumbs my way.

I respectfully picked apart your argument and gave you proof. You just dismissed it because you don't like it. Even if you disagree with what I have to say, At least be civil. Just because I don't like a movie doesn't mean I have to ruin somebody else's enjoyment of that movie. Quite frankly that's petty and downright rude. I put up with enough of those kinds of people on facebook.

 

[Kemaiku]

Re: Isn't it time we realize Rick Berman was the genius of the ST we l

Satisfaction.

So, you're admitting that you have deliberately become as unpleasant as possible to anybody you doesn't bow to your interpretation of Trek, and making more of an effort to be so for some time now?

 

[doubleohfive]

Re: Isn't it time we realize Rick Berman was the genius of the ST we l

This comment seems more like a justification to ignoring a counter argument.

It is, an it's a typical tactic of those who criticise the new movies. But he in particular used to claim that everything (literally everything) after TOS was not canon.

Continuing to argue what is canon with him is a pointless exercise that many here grew very tired of a long time ago.

The new movies share the same "Old Spock" and are as connected as the people who own the property say. Regardless of what a few old codgers who cannot accept reality endlessly rant over.

And Warped9....

You used to have a much more convincing false civility with this topic. But in the last few months you have been given to ranting, swearing and generally far more openly agressive behaviour over these films simply at the mention of them.

You have repeatidly said you would not continue to discuss "those fucking films" (your words) more than once. Yet you travel out of TOS forums more often to behave this way.

It's not very becoming, it's not pleasant, it derails all the discussions the people of the board try to have about them and I can only assume from your several year long vendetta about them that this is what you want.

You have to accept sooner or later that these "fucking films" are the current Trek, will be until the next reboot, and are a softer reboot than was either expected or the next one likely will be.

Your are entitled to prefer one over the other, or both as I do, but your own attitude has become more hostile with each passing year, and this is not healthy for either side and certainly not a good reflection on you.

Either stay in TOS, take a more neutral, balanced tone to the other posters, or just keep being petulant and childish, and we can keep up this back and forth until one of us drops dead from it.

But really, what have you to gain from doing this for another 5 years?

Satisfaction.

Nice to see you being honest about your true intentions to troll others, Warped9. Stay classy!

 

[CorporalClegg]

Re: Isn't it time we realize Rick Berman was the genius of the ST we l

I've been a long-time defender of Berman. I think both he and Braga have been the targets of grossly undeserved vitriol. Do they deserver criticism? Of course. But most of the things Trek fans have said about them, goes way beyond criticism. That said, I don't know if I'd call him a "genius."

There are a lot of stylistic issues with 90s Trek that I don't particularly care for: the excessive technobabble, the shield percentage countdowns, the flat, uninspired droning music cues, the overbearing, beat-you-over-the-head sanctimony, that sort of thing. But he still put out a quality product (even when it was at its worst) under-budget and with high production value every week (and sometimes twice a week) for a decade and a half.

 

[Warped9]

Re: Isn't it time we realize Rick Berman was the genius of the ST we l

The proof is all over the damned screen. If folks choose to not see and grasp it then it's not my problem.

But for those who might need some help I'll give you but one small example. If Chekov is in his early 20s during the original 5-year mission of the Prime continuity then he would have been about 10 or less during the Pike era. Yet in JJtrek here he is at 17 (as stated onscreen) during the Pike era. So in this supposedly same continuity they've aged a prime character at least ten years (probably more) than he was originally. And other characters' ages are off as well such as Sulu and Uhura to name just two.

So how can it be the same continuity when characters' ages are already off? It can't be. They were borne earlier? All of them? Then that means a complex chain of events has to be distinctly different for all those people to have been born earlier. It means their parents lives would have had to be different. And from there you have a ripple effect where other things will be different as well.


So as long as some will crow about how awesome JJ is there'll still be a few to illustrate how monumentally stupid he really is when it comes to this franchise.

If someone wants to mount a reboot--fine, they can knock themselves out--but let them be honest about it rather than changing everything and yet claim it's still all the same.

 

[CaptainMurdock]

Re: Isn't it time we realize Rick Berman was the genius of the ST we l

The proof is all over the damned screen. If folks choose to not see and grasp it then it's not my problem.

Why are you so antagonistic? You shouldn't be so hostile to people who like things you don't.

But for those who might need some help I'll give you but one small example. If Chekov is in his early 20s during the original 5-year mission of the Prime continuity then he would have been about 10 or less during the Pike era. Yet in JJtrek here he is at 17 (as stated onscreen) during the Pike era. So in this supposedly same continuity they've aged a prime character at least ten years (probably more) than he was originally. And other characters' ages are off as well such as Sulu and Uhura to name just two.

So how can it be the same continuity when characters' ages are already off? It can't be. They were borne earlier? All of them? Then that means a complex chain of events has to be distinctly different for all those people to have been born earlier. It means their parents lives would have had to be different. And from there you have a ripple effect where other things will be different as well.

Nero's crossing into the timeline caused a new chain of events that changed the order of things. Kirk wasn't Born on Iowa. Checkov's parents probably waited to have a child in wake of the recent disaster. And Sulu and Uhura's age's were never established in the TOS and TOS Films so that's another irrelevant point. When you introduce an unstable element into the fray, things change. But after all. It's a movie. It's not real.

So as long as some will crow about how awesome JJ is there'll still be a few to illustrate how monumentally stupid he really is when it comes to this franchise.

I never said JJ was awesome. I like his contributions to Trek, But I also love TOS, TNG and DS9 more than I do the JJ Reboots. Just because I like his films doesn't mean I don't like the original shows and films that came before it. Some open mind you claimed to have.

If someone wants to mount a reboot--fine, they can knock themselves out--but let them be honest about it rather than changing everything and yet claim it's still all the same.

Yes, let's just remake something and not be original rather than reboot the franchise and wipe the slate clean in order to try out new ideas. Yes, let's stick to a formula. Trek was in need of something new.

 

[doubleohfive]

Re: Isn't it time we realize Rick Berman was the genius of the ST we l

Blah blah blah blah blah

Since we have now established that you are just getting off on trolling the people who do like anything produced after 1979, why don't we just put our cards on the table?

What is your deal dude? What part of "live and let live" so damn difficult for you to comprehend? Is it so egregious and terrible a thing that you simply cannot abide the fact that there are people who enjoy something you don't that you have to trample in over everyone every single time and make your displeasure known? What's the big deal? Why? This isn't about censorship because no mod has ever told you to change your schtick. It's not about personal taste because after nearly a decade of reading your spiel, I'm pretty sure we are all well aware of your tastes. So what festering cloying and irreparable childhood trauma has left you so indignant and impossibly unable to allow other people to just sit back and enjoy themselves?

 

[Warped9]

Re: Isn't it time we realize Rick Berman was the genius of the ST we l

If someone wants to mount a reboot--fine, they can knock themselves out--but let them be honest about it rather than changing everything and yet claim it's still all the same.

Yes, let's just remake something and not be original rather than reboot the franchise and wipe the slate clean in order to try out new ideas. Yes, let's stick to a formula. Trek was in need of something new.

Do you even know what you wrote? If one is to do a reboot then do it rather then pretending. JJ claimed to be wiping the slate clean and yet he tries to backdoor the whole thing and say, "Well, it's really pretty much as it was before."

It's bad enough he makes a lousy film, but he's also bald-faced dishonest about what it is.

blah, blah, blah, blah...

Back at you.

 

[CaptainMurdock]

Re: Isn't it time we realize Rick Berman was the genius of the ST we l

If someone wants to mount a reboot--fine, they can knock themselves out--but let them be honest about it rather than changing everything and yet claim it's still all the same.

Yes, let's just remake something and not be original rather than reboot the franchise and wipe the slate clean in order to try out new ideas. Yes, let's stick to a formula. Trek was in need of something new.

Do you even know what you wrote? If one is to do a reboot then do it rather then pretending. JJ claimed to be wiping the slate clean and yet he tries to backdoor the whole thing and say, "Well, it's really pretty much as it was before."

It's bad enough he makes a lousy film, but he's also bald-faced dishonest about what it is.

blah, blah, blah, blah...

Back at you.

So what? It's just a damn movie. Science fiction, Motion picture fakery, None of this stuff is real. None of these characters are real nor will they ever be real. Why are you so hostile when I'm trying to have a civil discussion with you?