Is Vader's redemption really much of a change?

[Guy Gardener]

1. If Anikan accused Ben of sleeping with Padme, isn't he accusing Obi-Wan of fathering his twins? But he seemed to be over that by New Hope.

2. If you kill the Emperor in anger, and you are a Jedi, he freejack's your body and imprisons your soul in side his soul like eating a cookie. Therefore the force ghost Anikan at the end of return of the Jedi was probably Sheev.

3. If Jedi can also eat souls, then Obi-Wan took over Vader at the end of New Hope, and every time he talks about "his son" this is confirmation that Obi-Wan did sleep with Padme often enough to knock her up.

 

[Herbert]

Vader still deserves to burn in Force Hell. He has a massive death toll to atone for, saving one person doesn't do that.

Based on what we see on screen, it does.
Not sure why we need to superimpose real-world values, which vary widely depending on many factors, on what is a fictional story created as a form of entertainment.

 

[Reverend]

Also the very notion of "force hell" is anathema.
There's no heaven, there's no hell. No judgments, no rewards. When he finally croaked for good, Palpatine didn't go to some fiery pit of eternal torment, he went to the same place all living things go when they die; his energy returned to and became one with the cosmic force as his individuality was annihilated. Same thing that happened to all of his victims, save Anakin and Ben.

The Force is not vengeful. It's not benevolent either. It just is.

The only hell Palpatine experienced is the one he inflicted on himself, because he thought spending 30 years as a living corpse strapped to a mass of medical apparatus in a dusty tomb was preferable to not existing at all. Which is what the Sith believe; there is no cosmic force, only oblivion. Their need to keep living at all costs is at the heart of what drives them to accumulate power, and every Sith Lord ever thought they THEY were going to be the one to finally conquer death, even when they're surrounded by the tomb, mausoleums and necropoli of their predecessors.

Likewise Vader's hell was his own doing, and his enlightenment and redemption was his escape from it. Not because he earned it, or because some cosmic overlord said so, but because of his own actions and state of mind.

2. If you kill the Emperor in anger

Vader didn't kill him in anger though. That's kinda the whole point.

 

[Maurice]

ROTJ muddies this a bit because Vader knows he's toast the moment Palpatine tells Luke to "take your father's place at my side," so what's he got to lose? Minus that the "turn" would have been more powerful.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Also the very notion of "force hell" is anathema.
There's no heaven, there's no hell. No judgments, no rewards. When he finally croaked for good, Palpatine didn't go to some fiery pit of eternal torment, he went to the same place all living things go when they die; his energy returned to and became one with the cosmic force as his individuality was annihilated. Same thing that happened to all of his victims, save Anakin and Ben.

The Force is not vengeful. It's not benevolent either. It just is.

The only hell Palpatine experienced is the one he inflicted on himself, because he thought spending 30 years as a living corpse strapped to a mass of medical apparatus in a dusty tomb was preferable to not existing at all. Which is what the Sith believe; there is no cosmic force, only oblivion. Their need to keep living at all costs is at the heart of what drives them to accumulate power, and every Sith Lord ever thought they THEY were going to be the one to finally conquer death, even when they're surrounded by the tomb, mausoleums and necropoli of their predecessors.

Likewise Vader's hell was his own doing, and his enlightenment and redemption was his escape from it. Not because he earned it, or because some cosmic overlord said so, but because of his own actions and state of mind.


Vader didn't kill him in anger though. That's kinda the whole point.

Every Sith Lord that did not die prematurely as an Apprentice was the same guy.

Body hopping.

 

[Reverend]

Every Sith Lord that did not die prematurely as an Apprentice was the same guy.

Body hopping.

If that was true, Palpatine wouldn't have been all gloaty about shanking Plagueis in his sleep, he'd have been talking him up as the most handsome and intelligent Sith Lord ever. Also, it would mean that both Plagueis and Palpatine is actually Bane, and if anyone is in a position to be sure Bane is dead for real, it's the Force Priestess(es). She/they are, ergo, he is and therefore: no body hopping.

ROTJ muddies this a bit because Vader knows he's toast the moment Palpatine tells Luke to "take your father's place at my side," so what's he got to lose? Minus that the "turn" would have been more powerful.

He already knew that going in. His attitude the whole movie was one of resigned hopelessness and despair. He knows Palpatine is out to replace him and that his only options are to be killed and by and replaced with his own son, or kill his son and continue as Palpatine's apprentice. Gone are his ambitions of overthrowing Palpatine. Luke already rejected him and he can't take Sidious on alone and live.
So long as he's still Vader, he still values his own continued existence, no matter how painful and miserable, over any alternative, no matter how onerous.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

ROTJ muddies this a bit because Vader knows he's toast the moment Palpatine tells Luke to "take your father's place at my side," so what's he got to lose? Minus that the "turn" would have been more powerful.

Yes, it's before Yoda's "only two there are" line in TPM entered canon.

But since Luke refuses to slay him, Vader might have had new hope () that he could live to duel the next candidate for Emperor's apprentice.*

He's going to lose his son, though. Once frying Luke, would the Emperor have immediately turned on Vader too?

* - Vader can't be physically saved only after getting zapped by the Emperor's Force lightning, so I doubt it's just getting worn down by dueling Luke that does him in.

 

[Tuskin38]

Every Sith Lord that did not die prematurely as an Apprentice was the same guy.

Body hopping.

Uh no?

 

[Guy Gardener]

If that was true, Palpatine wouldn't have been all gloaty about shanking Plagueis in his sleep, he'd have been talking him up as the most handsome and intelligent Sith Lord ever. Also, it would mean that both Plagueis and Palpatine is actually Bane, and if anyone is in a position to be sure Bane is dead for real, it's the Force Priestess(es). She/they are, ergo, he is and therefore: no body hopping.

He already knew that going in. His attitude the whole movie was one of resigned hopelessness and despair. He knows Palpatine is out to replace him and that his only options are to be killed and by and replaced with his own son, or kill his son and continue as Palpatine's apprentice. Gone are his ambitions of overthrowing Palpatine. Luke already rejected him and he can't take Sidious on alone and live.
So long as he's still Vader, he still values his own continued existence, no matter how painful and miserable, over any alternative, no matter how onerous.

Uh no?

Have you seen the Rise of Skywalker?

Sheevs plan is to take over Rey's body, and inside his soul we see all the other Sith he had assimilated over the last several thousand years.

 

[Xerxes82]

Uh no?

I mean, it's Guy Gardener, so take it for what it is. But it's a perfectly valid reading of RoS. In fact, maybe the only one that actually lets that movie make any sense whatsoever beyond spectacle.