Is Vader's redemption really much of a change?

[suarezguy]

He supposedly redeems himself by sacrificing himself to save Luke. But wouldn't he have been willing to sacrifice himself in Revenge of the Sith to save Padme (except for right when he thinks she betrayed him)?

If so does his character really change or improve much? Was he pulled back to the light side by attachment to Luke and is that ironic that it brought about both his fall and redemption when Lucas intended to make the saga especially the prequels against attachment? Or is selfless love something really different from the negative attachment?

And/or, while he was willing to save Padme through most of RotS, did he in the years after it become completely selfish and cruel, to where sacrifice to save someone else was a big improvement over what he became?

 

[Xerxes82]

It isn't about his actions. It's about his INTENTIONS.

Saving Padme isn't actually about Padme at all. It's about Anakin. He's being completely selfish. It's not about saving her from pain or death, it's about saving himself from the pain of losing her. Padme only matters in so far as she impacts him. His thoughts are never actually for her.

Jedi serve others. Anakin appears to serve others by his actions, but if you look past them to his intentions you'll see that he never serves anyone but himself.

He's perfectly willing to throw himself into danger, bodily. But only because he doesn't believe he is actually in any real danger. His confidence (arrogance) is such that there is no real or meaningful risk to his person. When he acts the hero, it's false. A veneer. A real hero sacrifices for others. Anakin does everything he does for himself and himself alone. For thrills, for glory. Because he believes himself chosen. During the Clone Wars it all has positive outcomes and looks like heroism. Anakin does great things, no question. But he never actually does them out of a real sense of duty or sacrifice.

The thing about Vader is that he is Anakin without the pretense of heroism. It's Anakin's true face. No more hiding behind a mask of duty or morality. It's his selfishness unbound and on full display. The tragedy of Darth Vader isn't that he is what Anakin became, it's that he's what Anakin always was and nobody around him was able to recognize it.

When Anakin sacrifices himself for Luke it's a true, selfless act. For probably the first time in his life. He KNOWS, with absolute certainty, that it will mean his death. That there is a real risk, that helping Luke can only hurt him And yet he does it anyway. Saving Luke is the first truly heroic act of Anakin Skywalker's life. It is the moment he finally becomes a true Jedi.

 

[Sketcher]

Even as a child Anakin displayed an extreme amount of arrogance - "I'm the only human who can do it", "Nobody can kill a Jedi", "Wouldn't have lasted long anyways if I wasn't so good at building things". He might have a good heart and want to be selfless, but Anakin's been falling prey to his more arrogant and selfish traits his entire life.

I'm sure Qui-Gon saw this and thought he could quell that arrogance, especially when he told Anakin when he learns to quiet his mind he'll be able to understand things more. Granted he was talking about midichlorians, but I think it can also be taken as Anakin being able to become wise as well. Unfortunately, Qui-God died, and Obi-Wan, as good of a person as he is, was also another arrogant and impulsive Jedi that didn't have the skillset to temper Anakin, and tragically probably enabled him.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

It isn't about his actions. It's about his INTENTIONS.

Saving Padme isn't actually about Padme at all. It's about Anakin. He's being completely selfish. It's not about saving her from pain or death, it's about saving himself from the pain of losing her. Padme only matters in so far as she impacts him. His thoughts are never actually for her.

Jedi serve others. Anakin appears to serve others by his actions, but if you look past them to his intentions you'll see that he never serves anyone but himself.

He's perfectly willing to throw himself into danger, bodily. But only because he doesn't believe he is actually in any real danger. His confidence (arrogance) is such that there is no real or meaningful risk to his person. When he acts the hero, it's false. A veneer. A real hero sacrifices for others. Anakin does everything he does for himself and himself alone. For thrills, for glory. Because he believes himself chosen. During the Clone Wars it all has positive outcomes and looks like heroism. Anakin does great things, no question. But he never actually does them out of a real sense of duty or sacrifice.

The thing about Vader is that he is Anakin without the pretense of heroism. It's Anakin's true face. No more hiding behind a mask of duty or morality. It's his selfishness unbound and on full display. The tragedy of Darth Vader isn't that he is what Anakin became, it's that he's what Anakin always was and nobody around him was able to recognize it.

When Anakin sacrifices himself for Luke it's a true, selfless act. For probably the first time in his life. He KNOWS, with absolute certainty, that it will mean his death. That there is a real risk, that helping Luke can only hurt him And yet he does it anyway. Saving Luke is the first truly heroic act of Anakin Skywalker's life. It is the moment he finally becomes a true Jedi.

Solid analysis, one that I've shared since the PT were originally released. Anakin was astoundingly self-centered (and thick-skulled), and his efforts in any campaign always had his personal life as the end-goal of concern. Obi-Wan served not just for duty, but a need to address and correct the larger ills of the galaxy, while not being motivated by what [he was going to get out of the situation. His 11th hour rescue of Luke can also be seen as a selfish act, as he--despite his reservations about bringing Luke to the Emperor--was perfectly content to serve the empire, and intended to continue doing so if the Endor campaign had been a success for the imperials.

The "fallen hero" PT plotting never worked, as most of Anakin's issues were usually his own fault, which he--automatically--shifted the blame to others.

 

[BillJ]

Vader still deserves to burn in Force Hell. He has a massive death toll to atone for, saving one person doesn't do that.

 

[fireproof78]

Too bad he didn't.

 

[Reverend]

I think what rubs people up the wrong way about this, is the very Abrahamic and I suppose Kemetic notion of objective judgment and incurring guilt as a debt to be paid after death. That "force heaven" (which btw, is not a thing) should be barred to him until he atones for each and every wrong done. Which is understandable given the kinds of preconceptions inherent in most of western culture thanks to the influence of those religions.

Lucas seems to have gone with a more eastern Taoist type philosophy. Meaning that The Force isn't some parental overlord of a deity, with a list of things it does not want you to do. It seems to be more amoral, an expression of nature and balance. That enlightenment and spiritual transcendence is something that comes from within, not a grace bestowed from without. It's a state of mind, or being. Not a reward to be earned, or a VIP pass into eternal paradise, or other such infantile nonsense some religions go in for.

Like it or not. Fair or not; In his dying moments, Anakin achieved true enlightenment and became one with the Force.

Believe it or not, this discussion came up during the making of 'Jedi'. Here's a snippet of an interview with Howard Kazanjian published in Rinzler's 'Making of Star Wars' books.

Ironically, a lot of religions talk about forgiveness, but it's probably the most difficult concept for people to wrap their brains around in actual practice.

Though if it makes you feel better, think of it this way: Anakin didn't get an eternity of bliss, or the release of nothingness that is his personality being annihilated as his energy re-joins the cosmic force to be born anew in different forms like everyone else. What he got was a timeless yet eternal existence as a true servant of the force's will. Eternal servitude, in other words.

Vader still deserves to burn in Force Hell. He has a massive death toll to atone for, saving one person doesn't do that.

Pretty sure he'd already constantly burned in a living hell every moment for half of his entire existence by the time he died, while sealed inside a walking sarcophagus.

 

[fireproof78]

Ironically, a lot of religions talk about forgiveness, but it's probably the most difficult concept for people to wrap their brains around in actual practice.

The quote from the book is interesting, but I love this statement. True forgiveness is an idea extremely foreign to humans that it is difficult to let go of. Fascinating.

 

[Tuskin38]

An upcoming novel seems to have Force Spirit Anakin saving Luke. The released snippet is out of the context, but the physical description of the figure is young Anakin.

 

[BillJ]

Pretty sure he'd already constantly burned in a living hell every moment for half of his entire existence by the time he died, while sealed inside a walking sarcophagus.

Still doesn't excuse the things that he did. And I'm not a religious person, so the whole "forgiveness" angle simply doesn't work on me.

 

[fireproof78]

Still doesn't excuse the things that he did. And I'm not a religious person, so the whole "forgiveness" angle simply doesn't work on me.

Like mind tricks

 

[Reverend]

Still doesn't excuse the things that he did.

Who said anything had to excuse anything?

And I'm not a religious person, so the whole "forgiveness" angle simply doesn't work on me.

And I'm an atheist. What's your point?

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

I think what rubs people up the wrong way about this, is the very Abrahamic and I suppose Kemetic notion of objective judgment and incurring guilt as a debt to be paid after death. That "force heaven" (which btw, is not a thing) should be barred to him until he atones for each and every wrong done.

The SW films certainly make the distinction that between Jedi and Sith, only the Jedi (the good) become one with the Force, as Maul, Dooku (evil) did not, so that was a clear value judgement about those who were essentially saved and those who were not. Obi-Wan hints to/mocks Vader with his "...I shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine" meaning he (Obi-Wan) knew there's a side / place for certain beings of a certain character / belief, while those that are seen as deviants (the Sith) have no place there. This is the reason some see Vader's 11th hour turn to save Luke born of a selfish nature, and not because he was truly redeemed. If Luke was on Endor, or high-tailed it to the other side of the galaxy, Vader would still be content to stand with Sidious and never lift a finger against him.

 

[suarezguy]

Anakin was astoundingly self-centered (and thick-skulled), and his efforts in any campaign always had his personal life as the end-goal of concern.

And I thought I was judgmental

Maybe, but doesn't that also apply to Luke and Han and most fictional characters?

Even as a child Anakin displayed an extreme amount of arrogance - "I'm the only human who can do it", "Nobody can kill a Jedi", "Wouldn't have lasted long anyways if I wasn't so good at building things". He might have a good heart and want to be selfless, but Anakin's been falling prey to his more arrogant and selfish traits his entire life.

The Nobody can kill a Jedi seems more reverential of others, the others about self but not really unreasonable for yes having those skills and survived.

Obi-Wan served not just for duty, but a need to address and correct the larger ills of the galaxy, while not being motivated by what [he was going to get out of the situation.

Obi-Wan and Anakin had very different upbringings and backgrounds although Anakin did still have a long time to absorb the different philosophy.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

Maybe, but doesn't that also apply to Luke and Han and most fictional characters?

Luke did not place his ambitions and ego above all else; he left his training on Dagobah knowing it was a trap that--if successful--he would lose his own soul / help bury the galaxy in the dark side's evil, but he acted on behalf of his suffering friends. Compare that to AOTC Anakin, who needed Padme to push him (by argument and Anakin just sitting on the ship as she took off) into an attempted rescue of Kenobi. Anakin's mentioning Windu's order was no more important than Luke being advised by Kenobi & Yoda in TESB (regarding the danger of leaving), but Luke always stepped up and it was never about himself.

Obi-Wan and Anakin had very different upbringings and backgrounds although Anakin did still have a long time to absorb the different philosophy.

That's the issue; he was only 9 or 10 when he joined the Jedi Order, and was completely exposed to the entire culture and beliefs of the Jedi, but he still steered--naturally--toward selfishness, arrogance and lacking the wisdom to know his tendencies / choices were never all that sound.

 

[fireproof78]

That's the issue; he was only 9 or 10 when he joined the Jedi Order, and was completely exposed to the entire culture and beliefs of the Jedi, but he still steered--naturally--toward selfishness, arrogance and lacking the wisdom to know his tendencies / choices were never all that sound.

Sounds about right given his history as a slave.

 

[Reverend]

The SW films certainly make the distinction that between Jedi and Sith, only the Jedi (the good) become one with the Force, as Maul, Dooku (evil) did not, so that was a clear value judgement about those who were essentially saved and those who were not. Obi-Wan hints to/mocks Vader with his "...I shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine" meaning he (Obi-Wan) knew there's a side / place for certain beings of a certain character / belief, while those that are seen as deviants (the Sith) have no place there. This is the reason some see Vader's 11th hour turn to save Luke born of a selfish nature, and not because he was truly redeemed. If Luke was on Endor, or high-tailed it to the other side of the galaxy, Vader would still be content to stand with Sidious and never lift a finger against him.

First off: I wouldn't characterise it that way. For one thing; Jedi = good, Sith = bad is a false dichotomy. Those are just organised belief systems and as such are incidental because the universe doesn't care about that crap. What does matter is what is an individual's spiritual outlook and centre from one moment to the next; selfless, or selfish. There's no score chart, no boxes to tick. One either is, or is not. Selfless or not. Enlightened or not. A Jedi can go their whole live diligently adhering to the code and every stricture to the very letter and still not come close to this state of mind. Conversely a Sith can go their whole lives as the most conniving, selfish creature that ever lived . . . and still (in theory) can be struck with revelation in their very last act.

Anyway it's all academic since the only evidence you need that Vader's act was selflessly motivated is the bare fact that he WAS there with Yoda and Obi-Wan at the end, restored to the good person that he was. If there was *anything* selfish in his heart in that moment then he would have just died and became one with the cosmic force without retaining his individuality, just like everyone else. He didn't, therefore there wasn't. QED.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

First off: I wouldn't characterise it that way. For one thing; Jedi = good, Sith = bad is a false dichotomy. Those are just organised belief systems and as such are incidental because the universe doesn't care about that crap.

Its the essence of how the film Jedi and Sith are categorized; the dialogue from both sides not only point out what they oppose about the other, but sell the merits of their place, beliefs, representation of the Light Side or Dark with strict definitions which separate them and their relation to the force--particularly after death.

What does matter is what is an individual's spiritual outlook and centre from one moment to the next; selfless, or selfish.

As structured in the films, force believers / practitioners do not live, perceive or act moment to moment. Theirs is a lifelong way of life and thought based on their understanding and particular application of their faith. There's no loose, "well, today, he might be evil, tomorrow, he might be good" at work, otherwise that flies in the opposite of the world and character building decisions (in the heart of the conflict between Luke and the Sith) made in the OT.

Anyway it's all academic since the only evidence you need that Vader's act was selflessly motivated is the bare fact that he WAS there with Yoda and Obi-Wan at the end

The reason that scene (Endor) has been discussed so often over the decades is the same reason explored by the opening post, and what I've said here: Vader was content to remain a servant of evil until it did not suit his personal needs. No Luke meant he was at the emperor's side 'till the end, so one "selfless" act is not atonement for decades of mass murder, subjugation and other crimes.

 

[suarezguy]

First off: I wouldn't characterise it that way. For one thing; Jedi = good, Sith = bad is a false dichotomy. Those are just organised belief systems and as such are incidental because the universe doesn't care about that crap.

It's interesting to me that the saga generally seems dichotomous sides conflict and yet Luke who ends up being pretty much the ultimate hero, and/or who wins Anakin back, is, while respectful to his mentors, is a pretty non-doctrinal, not-super-obedient, independently minded kind of Jedi, purposefully being his own kind of Jedi.

 

[Reverend]

It's interesting to me that the saga generally seems dichotomous sides conflict and yet Luke who ends up being pretty much the ultimate hero, and/or who wins Anakin back, is, while respectful to his mentors, is a pretty non-doctrinal, not-super-obedient, independently minded kind of Jedi, purposefully being his own kind of Jedi.

I mean the bad guys are a bunch of super-authoritarian space fascists, and the good guys are literally rebels. So it'd be weird if the main hero just meekly went along with whatever his elders told him to do, no?