Is Toxic "Star Wars" Fandom Imploding?

[CorporalCaptain]

Because it's not a word I would normally use.

I don't normally discuss trombonists, but on those rare occasions when I do, including this one, I don't put scare-quotes around the word for them, because it's a recognized word with an established meaning.

It sounds like you're calling into question the validity of the usage of the word in this case.

As a straight white man, I'm hardly ever the target of cyberbullying. Even though people don't know what groups I belong to unless I reveal that information, like I just did, there's just not a lot of cyberbullying against straight white men in the first place. Even when it happens, it doesn't indicate any kind of jeopardy to me in the real world in any statistically significant sense. It's nearly the best kind of privilege for this to be the case.

Sadly, many people in other groups aren't so fortunate, and hate speech is more than simply sticks and stones. It adds insult to the injury experienced by them in the real world. That corrodes the formation of interpersonal associations and makes it toxic. Vicious hate speech is a real thing. Others can perhaps express it more clearly than I.

 

[Refuge]

I think most people who didn't like the film don't know who Rian Johnson is, have never heard of Kathleen Kennedy and are unaware there's a "backlash". They just know they watched a really boring movie and have probably never posted on the internet about it because SW isn't that important to them.

This. Frankly why shouldn't people exercise their right to complain if they don't like a product?

 

[fireproof78]

I have to confess, I'm really looking forward to Rian's Star Wars trilogy. I really enjoyed The Last Jedi, and I can't wait to see what he does when he isn't hemmed in by being responsible for only the middle movie in the trilogy.

Especially when he has a little more creative freedom.

 

[johnjm22]

I don't normally discuss trombonists, but on those rare occasions when I do, including this one, I don't put scare-quotes around the word for them, because it's a recognized word with an established meaning.

It sounds like you're calling into question the validity of the usage of the word in this case.

As a straight white man, I'm hardly ever the target of cyberbullying. Even though people don't know what groups I belong to unless I reveal that information, like I just did, there's just not a lot of cyberbullying against straight white men in the first place. Even when it happens, it doesn't indicate any kind of jeopardy to me in the real world in any statistically significant sense. It's nearly the best kind of privilege for this to be the case.

Sadly, many people in other groups aren't so fortunate, and hate speech is more than simply sticks and stones. It adds insult to the injury experienced by them in the real world. That corrodes the formation of interpersonal associations and makes it toxic. Vicious hate speech is a real thing. Others can perhaps express it more clearly than I.

I don't like the word in this context. I think it's sounds corny so I avoid using it. That doesn't mean I don't think it's an accurate description.

It's just diction I guess.

 

[Locutus of Bored]

There's a lot of legitimate criticism of the movie that I think gets lumped in with the "toxic" complaints about it. I agree with the author of the OP article that the extremists should be ignored, but I don't think most of the dislike is coming from them.

Would that I could, but when they're pushing children like Jake Lloyd out of acting, driving Ahmed Best to the verge of suicide, forcing Kelly Marie Tran to delete her social media accounts because of a racist and sexist backlash, and attacking John Boyega, Daisy Ridley, and Kathleen Kennedy for racist and sexist reasons, respectively, it's incumbent on other fans to show that this is not okay and that we do not support the bigots and sexists, regardless of how one might feel about the quality of any particular film or performance or how the franchise is being run.

The scare-quotes are applicable.

Because it's not a word I would normally use.

I don't like the word in this context. I think it's sounds corny so I avoid using it. That doesn't mean I don't think it's an accurate description.

It's also a perfectly accepted and common usage of the word "toxic" in this context (see #3), so I'm not seeing the problem. If you even agree that it's an accurate description, what's the objection? If it's just your personal preference, no one is forcing you to use it. But your reaction and words here imply that you think it's inappropriate for others to use it in this sense as well.

It should also be pointed out that when I started this thread it was simply meant to be a parody of this shitposting thread by the TrekBBS king of toxic fans, right down to the title and format of the OP. It has since taken on a life of its own. So any hyperbolic language was done in mockery of the other thread's hyperbolic language, not to indicate that I'm giving the toxic elements of Star Wars fandom greater weight and influence than they actually have.

"Scare" quotes, lol.

It's a long-established term and an even older concept, so again, what's the issue?

This. Frankly why shouldn't people exercise their right to complain if they don't like a product?

Who said people shouldn't have the right to complain if they don't like a movie? I didn't care for TLJ for extensive structural and characterization and other reasons (which I've gone into here repeatedly) that have nothing to do with there being people of color or women as leading characters or a woman running the franchise. People whining about that are the problem, not people with legitimate complaints about the film.

Admittedly, some people do occasionally get overly defensive and can't handle any criticism of the film and try and discredit legitimate critics by conflating them with the toxic kind, and that's not right. But that doesn't mean we should bury our heads in the sand and not call out actual toxic fans who are doing actual harm to people by harassing them.

 

[Doc Mugatu]

That's not how Hollywood works. For the most part they don't give a damn what you have to say about their show. All they care about is whether you watch it or not. Therefore, if you want to apply your standards to signal Hollywood that they need to do better, then you should simply stop watching, not go online and complain about it all.

I disagree in general (but not totally). They don't care on a fan-by-fan basis, however, they do care when it comes to the totals. They do care if fans, en mass, stay away or only see it once or twice. Why? Because for it to hit their projections a certain percentage must be enthused enough to give it good "word of mouth" AND see it themselves 2 or 3 or more times in the theater. So, I can see it once, make my judgement and voice my opinion without it really being part of the problem.

Once again, TPTB's greatest ally is making folks feel their individual POV doesn't matter so they just go with whatever. I voice my opinion, you voice yours and so on. Those opinions in quantity becomes data. Data they can mine for answers when movies fail.

That's now how Hollywood studios tend to see it. If something is risky that puts profit at risk.

Totally agree. I don't think it's right. I do not believe that attitude is good for any creative endeavor. It is, however, the current reality. It ain't never going to change though if folks don't rail against the machine. Think of Kirk's final message to the Mirror-Universe Mr. Spock.

Holding ill will towards the films themselves is not (necessarily) the issue. It's when that ill will moves on to the people who make it, wishing them harm and all manner of hostility, that's not OK.

I admit to being guilty of that (to a degree). Berman and Bragga should be exiled to Gilligan's Island and receive a daily atomic wedgie for their crimes against the United Federation of Planets! WHAT?

Treating the films as though they have some how damaged a franchise also is not very rational, as Star Wars and Star Trek have obviously endured multiple poor outings.

Again, "fandom" comes from "fan" which is short for "fanatic." The "rational fan" is oxymoronic. As for the franchises endurance that is due to how the Hollywood game is rigged nowadays. They own the material, the production, the distribution. They own every aspect. Hollywood/Media Conglomerates need to be re-regulated and broken up … but that is a larger argument for elsewhere.

Regardless of personal expectations, the fact of the matter is that not every film is for every fan. I don't care for TWOK or ROTS as films, but I don't hold them to any sort of personal animosity. I just don't watch them. Period. It isn't worth the outrage, blood pressure rising or anxiety to me.

And if we had Universal Healthcare then you would have access to the help you obviously require … didn't like TWoK or RotS! [JOKE].

I can appreciate films even when they are not my cup of tea, but really EVERY Star Trek film now has to be a TWoK variant? … EVERY Disney Star Wars film has to be a re-imagining of EP's 4, 5 and 6? There comes a time when things are better off dead rather than becoming zombie-franchises as they are starting to turn into. Even Disney's MCU will not be immune … wait until they start their streaming service. The fandom you advocate will soon look like Malcom McDowell in "A Clockwork Orange" strapped into chairs with their eyes forcibly kept open.

I enjoy Star Wars. A lot. I still enjoy the Disney era because it means more Star Wars a ...

Quantity over quality is not rational.

 

[Refuge]

EVERY Disney Star Wars film has to be a re-imagining of EP's 4, 5 and 6? There comes a time when things are better off dead rather than becoming zombie-franchises as they are starting to turn into. Even Disney's MCU will not be immune … wait until they start their streaming service. The fandom you advocate will soon look like Malcom McDowell in "A Clockwork Orange" strapped into chairs with their eyes forcibly kept open.



Quantity over quality is not rational.

There is becoming a sameness with story telling in movies/TV. With character portrayal. With the landscape and representation of characters. Even with tone both in picture and sound. It's like being stuck in traffic and seeing that every 4WD looks the same. That that monstrosity in front of you is actually a Jag. Boxes need ticking and if that means the story seems forced and a character seems a Mary Sue, it doesn't matter. It's a product. Someone has done the market research and that's where the creation is developed.

 

[Doc Mugatu]

There have only been two Abrams/Orci Star Trek films, Trek XI and STID. Orci had no involvement at all with Beyond.

Robert Orci's name is credited on Star Trek Beyond as producer on the IMDb credits. He is also listed as one of the writers (uncredited). I leave it to you take it up with them as well as the unions involved.

 

[fireproof78]

Robert Orci's name is credited on Star Trek Beyond as producer on the IMDb credits. He is also listed as one of the writers (uncredited). I leave it to you take it up with them as well as the unions involved.

He submitted a draft and was the original producer but then left. He did enough work to net a producer credit.

 

[fireproof78]

I can appreciate films even when they are not my cup of tea, but really EVERY Star Trek film now has to be a TWoK variant? … EVERY Disney Star Wars film has to be a re-imagining of EP's 4, 5 and 6? There comes a time when things are better off dead rather than becoming zombie-franchises as they are starting to turn into.

This is where I disagree. Do I like the TWoK variant of Trek? No, but I can appreciate the work that is done on those films. Same thing with Star Wars. I don't think they are zombie franchises, because they allow production teams who grew up with the material the opportunity to put their mark on it. And I am always open to another person's interpretation of a work.

 

[Doc Mugatu]

He submitted a draft and was the original producer but then left. He did enough work to net a producer credit.

I don't know the specifics of what Orci did or didn't do on Star Trek Beyond. I was merely sourcing that he is officially associated with that project in order to refute a claim that I was incorrect in making such an association some posts back.

 

[Awesome Possum]

Any franchise that doesn’t try to innovate or grow is going to die, much like Star Trek by the late 90s and early 00s. Star Wars tried something different in TLJ and there were mixed reactions, but mostly positive. There’s a crowd that just hates any change, they found it at some stage and fell in love and now can’t imagine any difference. Although in reality, every show and movie is in a constant state of flux. Each Star Wars movie in the original trilogy feels different and are vastly different from the prequels. Mainly because they were made at different times and informed by different things. Treating the Disney films as something out of place is absurd.

The same goes with Trek. Some of the fans here treat Discovery as some vastly different show, but it’s a 10s era sci-fi show and fits in with the standards of the other shows of this era. Much like how TOS fit in with 60s sci-fi and TNG fit in with 80s sci-fi. There’s a language to film that changes from decade to decade, even year to year and you can’t go backwards unless it’s an intentional style which comes off as campy.

It’s likely not even an issue with the films and shows, but the people watching them. They want to feel the way they felt before and that’s impossible. You’re older and a different person now. It’s like any other relationship, it’s not going to ever feel like it did when it began and it’s foolish to even try. But you can find ways to appreciate it.

 

[Awesome Possum]

I don't know the specifics of what Orci did or didn't do on Star Trek Beyond. I was merely sourcing that he is officially associated with that project in order to refute a claim that I was incorrect in making such an association some posts back.

He didn’t make any creative decisions though. He wrote a draft and was supposed to direct, but dropped out and a new script was written. He got a producer credit because of various rules and contracts. A lot of producers in film have nothing to do with the actual film. They were just attached, paid for some part or was friends with the right person. Some are more engaged and others just get a check for nothing.

 

[johnjm22]

Would that I could, but when they're pushing children like Jake Lloyd out of acting, driving Ahmed Best to the verge of suicide, forcing Kelly Marie Tran to delete her social media accounts because of a racist and sexist backlash, and attacking John Boyega, Daisy Ridley, and Kathleen Kennedy for racist and sexist reasons, respectively, it's incumbent on other fans to show that this is not okay and that we do not support the bigots and sexists, regardless of how one might feel about the quality of any particular film or performance or how the franchise is being run.

Getting a reaction out of people is exactly what they want and keeps them coming back. Don't feed the trolls.

I also think the amount of this stuff that's out there is exaggerated.

It's also a perfectly accepted and common usage of the word "toxic" in this context (see #3), so I'm not seeing the problem.

That's why I used it.

If you even agree that it's an accurate description, what's the objection?

There is no objection. It's just diction. I think the word is corny. I also put "Backlash" in quotes because I think it's melodramatic.

I also avoid using the word "Narrative" and "Epic" when it was popular.

This is such minor thing. It's totally irrelevant.

your reaction and words here imply that you think it's inappropriate for others to use it in this sense as well.

Nope. Use it all you want.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

I disagree in general (but not totally). They don't care on a fan-by-fan basis, however, they do care when it comes to the totals. They do care if fans, en mass, stay away or only see it once or twice. Why? Because for it to hit their projections a certain percentage must be enthused enough to give it good "word of mouth" AND see it themselves 2 or 3 or more times in the theater. So, I can see it once, make my judgement and voice my opinion without it really being part of the problem.

Once again, TPTB's greatest ally is making folks feel their individual POV doesn't matter so they just go with whatever. I voice my opinion, you voice yours and so on. Those opinions in quantity becomes data. Data they can mine for answers when movies fail.

If you watch every episode, they do not give a damn what you say online. You're still watching every episode. They got their money.

And they really are not going to dig through internet forums to decide what's working and what isn't. They have their own methods for that.

Totally agree. I don't think it's right. I do not believe that attitude is good for any creative endeavor. It is, however, the current reality. It ain't never going to change though if folks don't rail against the machine. Think of Kirk's final message to the Mirror-Universe Mr. Spock.
...
Quantity over quality is not rational.

This risk averse, quantity obsessed attitude that is supposedly 'ruining' franchises now is the same attitude that created them in the first place. Especially in the case of Star Trek.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

This is such minor thing. It's totally irrelevant.

Attempted suicide is not a minor thing. It's a "minor" thing. See how that works?

And "totally irrelevant."

 

[Awesome Possum]

Saying “Don’t feed the trolls” is victim blaming in some cases. At a certain point it stops being trolling and becomes harassment.

 

[Locutus of Bored]

Getting a reaction out of people is exactly what they want and keeps them coming back. Don't feed the trolls.

That's very easy (and somewhat callous) for you to say as someone not directly affected by it, but those people who the trolls are attacking don't have the luxury of just ignoring it, nor should others, because it gives the impression of indifference or even tacit approval.

Plus, these aren't just garden variety trolls looking for a negative reaction with no actual convictions behind what they're doing, these are actual bigots and misogynists spreading their hate toward anyone different than them. They don't care whether you give them attention or not, they just want to hurt people they don't like.

I also think the amount of this stuff that's out there is exaggerated.

How nice for you. The various actors and actresses and production staff on the films who have had to deal with this shit disagree.

There is no objection. It's just diction. I think the word is corny. I also put "Backlash" in quotes because I think it's melodramatic.

I also avoid using the word "Narrative" and "Epic" when it was popular.

So we're on this stupid tangent simply because you have some weird hang-up with using commonplace words?

 

[The Wormhole]

Robert Orci's name is credited on Star Trek Beyond as producer on the IMDb credits. He is also listed as one of the writers (uncredited). I leave it to you take it up with them as well as the unions involved.

Orci had no involvement with the movie that was released in theatres, he has even admitted as much himself. His producer credit was because of the work he had done on the previous version of the film, which he had written and was going to direct. Indeed, he was going to have a writer's credit on the film, but he requested it be removed, because he had no input on the script that was filmed.

 

[Spot261]

I sincerely disagree. It is not a sense of entitlement. At least not on my part. More a sense of frustration built up over the long term. My philosophy is simply that I do not feel we are beholden not to have standards and that each new project should expand boundaries and justify it's existence by doing more than just treading water. I mean how many times are they going to use TWoK as the basis for their movies? I don't believe it is out a sense of entitlement that I look for new generations to be able to experience variety and relevance when enjoying new Star Trek adventures.

Up till this post I had been in agreement with a great deal of your postings, but this paragraph threw me a bit to be honest. You say "it is not a sense of entitlement", but flesh that out with what reads almost like an expanded definition of what entitlement means in this context. We aren't owed anything, no one in the relationship between creator and consumer warrants the word "beholden". You either like it, or you don't. That's really all there is to it.

So, I can see it once, make my judgement and voice my opinion without it really being part of the problem.

Once again, TPTB's greatest ally is making folks feel their individual POV doesn't matter so they just go with whatever. I voice my opinion, you voice yours and so on. Those opinions in quantity becomes data. Data they can mine for answers when movies fail.

The problem is this is no longer the case, people are being given platforms by which they can draw disproportionate attention to their views, leading to an arms race between rival viewpoints which will be won not by the most majority, or even the most eloquent. they are won by those most motivated, hence loudest, and that is always going to be those who wish to attack and destroy, not those who simply enjoyed a product.

STD and SW have both served recently to illustrate this, they have been by and large very successful and well accepted by the fans, but reading the larger conversations happening you would think they were spectacular failures whose catastrophic shortcomings and unpopularity need explaining, precisely because a few very vocal opinions have been thrust into the limelight in contrary to the evidence.

Saying “Don’t feed the trolls” is victim blaming in some cases. At a certain point it stops being trolling and becomes harassment.

Yup, I've always hated that phrase, including (no offence) when you yourself have used it. The idea that somehow you are responsible for the behaviour of the guilty party is unproductive and stifling to debate. It's creating a narrative by default where the odd spiteful or bigoted Youtuber is in fact the unchallangeable voice of the fans, regardless of how ridiculous they might be.