And, the Glasses. I sent in for all kinds of stuff off the cereal boxes and such, but I never saw an offer for "Baby Boomer Glasses" I gotta get me some!
Is TOS considered an integral part of pop culture?
- Thread starter Terran_Empire
- Start date
And, the Glasses. I sent in for all kinds of stuff off the cereal boxes and such, but I never saw an offer for "Baby Boomer Glasses" I gotta get me some!
No, it just proves the baby boomers are now the old age executives and decision makers.
Think when you were young were your parents white screen heroes your heroes?
No! Those folks were totally old hat!
Each generation has its new cultural icons and ideals.
The idea that the baby boomer era will be any different is just an illusion in the minds of people who look at the world through baby boomer glasses.
51675168
You are, of course, entitled to your opinion, newpbal, but may I suggest you do a little searching of the topic at hand, and see how many different places and different decades and different subsets of Culture Star Trek can be found. You might be surprised.
I can vouch for there being plenty in Generation X and Generation Y that will remember Nimoy as Spock. Generation Z might start not knowing, but they got the new films and reruns. Also even modern comedies parody Star Trek from time to time, even with only phrases.
Also the Internet is such that people will always find things. I remember being in elementary school and thinking I was the only one that knew about the Beatles because they were from the 60s and it was just a few albums my father had. Everyone knew about the Beatles, and they hadn't played together as a band for 15 years at that time.
Just because its old and famous doesn't mean it will vanish. Star Trek effected the culture. Pop or otherwise. Shakespear's been dead for centuries. Bob Hope's been dead for over a decade now. Groucho Marx has been dead for my entire life (he died a month before I was born).
Also the Internet is such that people will always find things. I remember being in elementary school and thinking I was the only one that knew about the Beatles because they were from the 60s and it was just a few albums my father had. Everyone knew about the Beatles, and they hadn't played together as a band for 15 years at that time.
Just because its old and famous doesn't mean it will vanish. Star Trek effected the culture. Pop or otherwise. Shakespear's been dead for centuries. Bob Hope's been dead for over a decade now. Groucho Marx has been dead for my entire life (he died a month before I was born).
People of what age?
Not all people are baby boomers.
Those things pass when new generations arrive.
Bob Hope was mainstream once as well.
807
True, but the Baby Boomer generation is roughly the 1946-1964 the post WWII period. Being part of the next Generation, Gen X I would get the referrence. But how many generations have to pass before people of that Generation don't get the referrence, would people of Gen Y get it?
I'm not sure about TOS specifically. With all the movies and TNG reruns and commercials, shout-outs and what not out there I'd imagine that "Star Trek" as an overall concept is probably recognized in some fashion within pop culture. I think if you show people in uniform on the bridge and the Enterprise that is understood to some extent to be Star Trek.
No, it just proves the baby boomers are now the old age executives and decision makers.
Think when you were young were your parents white screen heroes your heroes?
No! Those folks were totally old hat!
Each generation has its new cultural icons and ideals.
The idea that the baby boomer era will be any different is just an illusion in the minds of people who look at the world through baby boomer glasses.
51675168
I think you may be overstating the degree to which each generation has its own popular culture--and rejects the icons of the previous generation.
I grew up in the sixties and seventies and I was well aware of movie and TV icons that had their heyday well before I was born--and who were still household names. I knew who Bela Lugosi was, and Charlie Chaplin, and Abbott & Costello, and Humphrey Bogart, and Marilyn Monroe, and Shirley Temple, and so on. And, trust me, most everybody my age knew about King Kong and The Creature from the Black Lagoon and The Fly . . . even though they dated back to the fifties and thirties.
And when kids my age played "Robin Hood" in backyards and vacant lots, we were inspired by Errol Flynn in the old 1938 movie . . ..
In part, this was because the old b/w movies were still playing regularly on TV (the same way, say, the TREK movies are constantly being rerun on cable today), but it was also because we didn't automatically reject our parents' favorites as old hat.
And I would also question whether "pop culture" is exclusively defined by people under thirty, or whether it's a larger sea of shared cultural references that we all swim in, and sometimes inherit from our parents and grand-parents.
(It was my grandfather, in fact, who first hooked me on the original TARZAN novels by Edgar Rice Burroughs. When he gave me his battered old hardcovers to read, I certainly didn't react with horror: "Ugh! Old-people stuff!")
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Man, man, the world upside down! Now if we have to believe late baby boomers, the 60s and 70s generation was readily accepting their parent's culture.
8561
No, it just proves the baby boomers are now the old age executives and decision makers.
Think when you were young were your parents white screen heroes your heroes?
No! Those folks were totally old hat!
Each generation has its new cultural icons and ideals.
The idea that the baby boomer era will be any different is just an illusion in the minds of people who look at the world through baby boomer glasses.
51675168
I grew up in the sixties and seventies and I was well aware of movie and TV icons that had their heyday well before I was born--and who were still household names. I knew who Bela Lugosi was, and Charlie Chaplin, and Abbott & Costello, and Humphrey Bogart, and Marilyn Monroe, and Shirley Temple, and so on. And, trust me, most everybody my age knew about King Kong and The Creature from the Black Lagoon and The Fly . . . even though they dated back to the fifties and thirties.
And when kids my age played "Robin Hood" in backyards and vacant lots, we were inspired by Errol Flynn in the old 1938 movie . . ..
In part, this was because the old b/w movies were still playing regularly on TV (the same way, say, the TREK movies are constantly being rerun on cable today), but it was also because we didn't automatically reject our parents' favorites as old hat.
And I would also question whether "pop culture" is exclusively defined by people under thirty, or whether it's a larger sea of shared cultural references that we all swim in, and sometimes inherit from our parents and grand-parents.
Considering that I am of the generation after you, whilst I might only be somewaht aware of those actors you mention as well as the films, though I would be more familiar with later The Fly movie.
But could perhaps another reason be that we simply had less choice than we have today. I remember the days of 3 channel TV in the UK, so even though there was less choice perhaps there was better choice.
I know kids born in the 1980s and 1990s that know what Star Trek is enough to get references. I was born in the late 70s.
I don't know that many young teenagers born after 2001 (Generation Z), so I couldn't tell you what they know or don't know. Just that their parents would have prbably have been from my generation and thus they might be influenced by Generation X or Y ideas. Which would mean more leaning towards TNG era, but even that still references TOS era materials enough to remain cultural. Especially since the TOS films were still made until the early 1990s. Ask again when the Generation Z starts having families after the 50th Anniversary of Star Trek.
I know the graduating high school and college Classes of 2015 would still get references to TOS Star Trek.
I don't know that many young teenagers born after 2001 (Generation Z), so I couldn't tell you what they know or don't know. Just that their parents would have prbably have been from my generation and thus they might be influenced by Generation X or Y ideas. Which would mean more leaning towards TNG era, but even that still references TOS era materials enough to remain cultural. Especially since the TOS films were still made until the early 1990s. Ask again when the Generation Z starts having families after the 50th Anniversary of Star Trek.
I know the graduating high school and college Classes of 2015 would still get references to TOS Star Trek.
Man, man, the world upside down! Now if we have to believe late baby boomers, the 60s and 70s generation was readily accepting their parent's culture.
8561
Well, I am proudly Generation X and I must say I agree whole heartedly with Greg Cox's statements. It sort of goes like this in my experience (very generally obviously YMMV):
You become aware of pop culture around the age of 3 or 4, specifically material made for young kids, Disney, Pixar, Sesame Street, Doc McsStuffins (to give a mix of today's and previous generations experiences.)
Around age 8-9 you become aware of contemporary youth culture - pop singers, movies that are hitting the screens right now. Your parents try to introduce you to things they loved growing up. These include their contemporary culture (I would show my kids ET, for example, because I saw that when I was 10 or so) as well as "classics" of pop culture - The Wizard of Oz.
Around 13-15, you are deeply involved in contemporary culture and you start to get an inkling that there was some pretty cool stuff from your parents and grandparents ages. These things have retro cache. I have now seen my generation and 2 others learn to dig the Beatles at this age.
By 18-20, you are really exploring more of pop culture and its history. You might discover the Marx Bros, Billie Holiday, the first "adult" comics of the 80s-90s (Moore, Gaiman, etc), Bogie. They will be a small part of what you consume, pop culture-wise, but you'll definitely start to encounter and really become interested in some things not of the immediate era. These tend to be things that have stood some test of time and multiple generations get into them. I would put Star Trek into this category. Now you may or may not encounter it at this age - but at this age or older, you're more likely to have enough of an understanding of the history of pop culture and have developed the ability to see beyond your own contemporary culture to give it a try. I recall, myself, not tolerating any black and white movies or tv shows until 16-20 years of age. Then I began to understand the charm and aesthetic of them and find them interesting historically and for their entertainment value.
After this, in your 20s, 30s, 40s you start building your personal list of pop culture favorites, that may go back some ways. I got into the Arthurian Romances of the 12th century in my early 30s. Does this make them "integral to pop culture" - well, in a way. They were the beginning of material that perpetuates today and they were a key influence not only in an King Arthur stuff that came later, but they set a tone of all medieval stories that came later. They influenced how Game of Thrones looks and feels even if you have never even heard of Wolfram von Eschenbach's Parsifal.
Star Trek is like this. Some people, of many ages, know it intimately because it speaks to them personally and they consume it directly. Some people know it through references which have become commonplace. Some people have never seen it and never will, but they will consume many movies, books, comic books, etc which would not look the way they look or sound the way they sound without Star Trek.
Perhaps the better way to think of it is Star Trek is an integral part of pop culture history, certainly still influential - the top rated tv sit com at the moment is populated by nerds who love Star Trek and the franchise is still actively being produced featuring the iconic characters of Kirk and Spock. It's not dead and it's not Taylor Swift. There is plenty of space in between though.
Two anecdotes:
1. I went to the local public library a few months ago to pick up a Star Trek-related book that they'd borrowed for me from another library. As I was checking it out, the librarian gave me the Vulcan salute. She couldn't do it very well, but she tried, and she admired my (excellent, of course) Vulcan salute when I returned her greeting in kind. She called the other librarian over to look at my hand, and the second librarian told me to live long and prosper.
2. Some Random Business Student (henceforth "SRBS") from a nearby college called me and said that his class was doing a project about the company that I occasionally buy fudge from. That company had given him my contact information, and he wanted to know if I'd answer some questions about fudge. Since I had to get people to take all manner of surveys while I was a Psychology student, I figure I owe the universe a considerable amount of helping students with survey-type stuff -- plus it's a small, local company -- so I said sure.
SRBS proceeded to ask me a number of questions about who I'd bought fudge for, why I thought it was a good gift, what I liked about the fudge, and so on. Then he asked me "When you eat their fudge, how does it make you feel?" I said, "I try not to eat junk food very often, so I guess it makes me feel indulged." He wrote that down and asked how else it made me feel. I said that I'd already picked the right word for how it made me feel. He pressed me for another word, and I said I'd already told him the single best answer.
He pressed again and I said, "Y'know, Vulcans just don't have that many emotions about fudge." He cracked up, then moved on to the next question.
SRBS knew what I was talking about. Yes! We have successfully taken over the culture. :-)
1. I went to the local public library a few months ago to pick up a Star Trek-related book that they'd borrowed for me from another library. As I was checking it out, the librarian gave me the Vulcan salute. She couldn't do it very well, but she tried, and she admired my (excellent, of course
) Vulcan salute when I returned her greeting in kind. She called the other librarian over to look at my hand, and the second librarian told me to live long and prosper.2. Some Random Business Student (henceforth "SRBS") from a nearby college called me and said that his class was doing a project about the company that I occasionally buy fudge from. That company had given him my contact information, and he wanted to know if I'd answer some questions about fudge. Since I had to get people to take all manner of surveys while I was a Psychology student, I figure I owe the universe a considerable amount of helping students with survey-type stuff -- plus it's a small, local company -- so I said sure.
SRBS proceeded to ask me a number of questions about who I'd bought fudge for, why I thought it was a good gift, what I liked about the fudge, and so on. Then he asked me "When you eat their fudge, how does it make you feel?" I said, "I try not to eat junk food very often, so I guess it makes me feel indulged." He wrote that down and asked how else it made me feel. I said that I'd already picked the right word for how it made me feel. He pressed me for another word, and I said I'd already told him the single best answer.
He pressed again and I said, "Y'know, Vulcans just don't have that many emotions about fudge." He cracked up, then moved on to the next question.
SRBS knew what I was talking about. Yes! We have successfully taken over the culture. :-)
Great post.Man, man, the world upside down! Now if we have to believe late baby boomers, the 60s and 70s generation was readily accepting their parent's culture.
8561
Well, I am proudly Generation X and I must say I agree whole heartedly with Greg Cox's statements. It sort of goes like this in my experience (very generally obviously YMMV):
You become aware of pop culture around the age of 3 or 4, specifically material made for young kids, Disney, Pixar, Sesame Street, Doc McsStuffins (to give a mix of today's and previous generations experiences.)
Around age 8-9 you become aware of contemporary youth culture - pop singers, movies that are hitting the screens right now. Your parents try to introduce you to things they loved growing up. These include their contemporary culture (I would show my kids ET, for example, because I saw that when I was 10 or so) as well as "classics" of pop culture - The Wizard of Oz.
Around 13-15, you are deeply involved in contemporary culture and you start to get an inkling that there was some pretty cool stuff from your parents and grandparents ages. These things have retro cache. I have now seen my generation and 2 others learn to dig the Beatles at this age.
By 18-20, you are really exploring more of pop culture and its history. You might discover the Marx Bros, Billie Holiday, the first "adult" comics of the 80s-90s (Moore, Gaiman, etc), Bogie. They will be a small part of what you consume, pop culture-wise, but you'll definitely start to encounter and really become interested in some things not of the immediate era. These tend to be things that have stood some test of time and multiple generations get into them. I would put Star Trek into this category. Now you may or may not encounter it at this age - but at this age or older, you're more likely to have enough of an understanding of the history of pop culture and have developed the ability to see beyond your own contemporary culture to give it a try. I recall, myself, not tolerating any black and white movies or tv shows until 16-20 years of age. Then I began to understand the charm and aesthetic of them and find them interesting historically and for their entertainment value.
After this, in your 20s, 30s, 40s you start building your personal list of pop culture favorites, that may go back some ways. I got into the Arthurian Romances of the 12th century in my early 30s. Does this make them "integral to pop culture" - well, in a way. They were the beginning of material that perpetuates today and they were a key influence not only in an King Arthur stuff that came later, but they set a tone of all medieval stories that came later. They influenced how Game of Thrones looks and feels even if you have never even heard of Wolfram von Eschenbach's Parsifal.
Star Trek is like this. Some people, of many ages, know it intimately because it speaks to them personally and they consume it directly. Some people know it through references which have become commonplace. Some people have never seen it and never will, but they will consume many movies, books, comic books, etc which would not look the way they look or sound the way they sound without Star Trek.
Perhaps the better way to think of it is Star Trek is an integral part of pop culture history, certainly still influential - the top rated tv sit com at the moment is populated by nerds who love Star Trek and the franchise is still actively being produced featuring the iconic characters of Kirk and Spock. It's not dead and it's not Taylor Swift. There is plenty of space in between though.
Yes, I would agree with that.
I'd give it 5-10 more years and then the "Spock and Kirk" thing is definitely "grandfather" stuff for the new generations.
What always stuns me is the general lack of relativism that an aging generation exposes, they think their generation is some sort of center of everything that will remain eternally, their movies were best, their society was best, everything was better in the past.
Of course it seems so to them when the ever so sweeter memories of the past overwhelm the more and more alienating reality of the present. They effectively stand still and come to an end while new generations and reality moves on. It's normal, it's life but not to realize it is a great miss.
757
The Shatner and Nimoy versions, perhaps,but Pine and Quinto's or who ever comes after them might be their Star Trek.Yes, I would agree with that.
I'd give it 5-10 more years and then the "Spock and Kirk" thing is definitely "grandfather" stuff for the new generations
Generalize much?
Yeah, some think their "stuff" is the best. That's true of the current generation too. Their music is superior or the films they like are the best because it's their's. Both reactions are understandable as it's human nature. But its not true for everyone. Finding new stuff and old stuff that is "cool" happens in all generation too.
I think that view is a minority one. Most people live firmly in the present and only occasionally wax nostalgic
Yes, I would agree with that.
I'd give it 5-10 more years and then the "Spock and Kirk" thing is definitely "grandfather" stuff for the new generations.
What always stuns me is the general lack of relativism that an aging generation exposes, they think their generation is some sort of center of everything that will remain eternally, their movies were best, their society was best, everything was better in the past.
Of course it seems so to them when the ever so sweeter memories of the past overwhelm the more and more alienating reality of the present. They effectively stand still and come to an end while new generations and reality moves on. It's normal, it's life but not to realize it is a great miss.
757
Just what are you getting at anyway? You are typing like everyone on the board is a baby boomer, and that you will welcome the day when their tyranny ends or some other such fashion of denouncement. Is there a reason for this?
I'm cetainly not a baby boomer. I was born in the transition years between Generation X and Y. A lot of the board members that remember Trek being on when they were little kids are very early Generation X. The oldest members of the Baby Boomers are turning 70 next year.
I beg to differ. Yes, there may be be some out-of-touch older people who remain fixated on the pop culture of their youth (just as there are some callow young people who scorn anything made before they hit puberty), but most people can be nostalgic for their old favorites and be in tune with more modern stuff. It's not either/or.
Sometimes, depending on my mood, I'll watch an old show or movie on TCM or MeTV--or I'll watch some cutting-edge new drama on Showtime or FX. And sometimes, believe it or not, I can appreciate the "classic" version of some old property and the updated new reboot version.
Not everything is about generational warfare and chasms. You can like Doc Savage and Jason Bourne . ...
Judging by some of the song choices for advertising, I'd say GenX is taking control. The leading edge of that group is pushing 50 and are probably well established in the board rooms.Yes, I would agree with that.
I'd give it 5-10 more years and then the "Spock and Kirk" thing is definitely "grandfather" stuff for the new generations.
What always stuns me is the general lack of relativism that an aging generation exposes, they think their generation is some sort of center of everything that will remain eternally, their movies were best, their society was best, everything was better in the past.
Of course it seems so to them when the ever so sweeter memories of the past overwhelm the more and more alienating reality of the present. They effectively stand still and come to an end while new generations and reality moves on. It's normal, it's life but not to realize it is a great miss.
757
Just what are you getting at anyway? You are typing like everyone on the board is a baby boomer, and that you will welcome the day when their tyranny ends or some other such fashion of denouncement. Is there a reason for this?
I'm cetainly not a baby boomer. I was born in the transition years between Generation X and Y. A lot of the board members that remember Trek being on when they were little kids are very early Generation X. The oldest members of the Baby Boomers are turning 70 next year.
<respectful snip>
I'd give it 5-10 more years and then the "Spock and Kirk" thing is definitely "grandfather" stuff for the new generations.
What always stuns me is the general lack of relativism that an aging generation exposes, they think their generation is some sort of center of everything that will remain eternally, their movies were best, their society was best, everything was better in the past.
Of course it seems so to them when the ever so sweeter memories of the past overwhelm the more and more alienating reality of the present. They effectively stand still and come to an end while new generations and reality moves on. It's normal, it's life but not to realize it is a great miss.
757
<respectful snip>
There are points of excellence and pop/cultural influences from every generation.
Not sure what your post above has to do with,
"Is TOS considered an integral part of pop culture?"
Great Discussion on your original Post, however!
(Do you like Lionel Trains? I notice at the end of all of your posts is a sequence of numbers. The only thing I can find in common is that they are model numbers for various Lionel Train and Track products.)
Do you have to kill me now?
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