Thanks! But yours is more awesomer. Those Dune paintings by John Schoenherr rock, and that's one of the best ones.
Is TOS considered an integral part of pop culture?
- Thread starter Terran_Empire
- Start date
So what is your position? Bob Hope is or is not part of mainstream culture? What about Fred Astaire or Valentino?The comedian is different than the joke. Hope didn't build his career on telling jokes with references that people didn't get.People of what age?
Not all people are baby boomers.
Those things pass when new generations arrive.
Bob Hope was mainstream once as well.
807
Let me guess: all things before the 60's are "obviously" not part of pop culture while 60 and 70 items will forever be part of pop culture?
Seems like a case of "looking a the world through baby boomer glasses"
2995
There is a difference between being an integral component of pop-culture and being instantly recognized by any individual who belongs to that culture.
Anywhere in the United States and a few other countries, if you were in any group of people of any age, you could make the statement, "I'm going to warp out of here!" and although you might get a couple of quizzical looks, everyone within that group would understand what you meant. You are leaving and quickly.
If you were driving and others were in the car with you, you could be cut off by another driver and mutter under your breath, "Set phasers to kill" or "Fire photon torpedoes" and it would be understood that you meant that the driver of the other car deserved to be destroyed for their actions.
If you were exasperated within any group, even children, and rolled your eyes after a particularly annoying diatribe by someone and you said, "Beam me up Scotty, there's NO intelligent life down here" you would not have to explain either what you meant, nor where the reference originated.
By those measures, I believe that Star Trek and its various sequels have become an integral component to the American Culture, and possibly a measurable section of world culture.
Now, as a member of a diehard fan base of the originally broadcast version of Star Trek, I know I am a member of a dying breed. To me, the 1960's version of Star Trek is Star Trek. But that's me. Star Trek is much more and includes movies and subsequent television series and a new line of Star Wars-influenced movies by J.J. Abrams. And I think this is probably most telling of all.
Star Wars, for all of its lack of science-fiction is more pervasive within our culture now. In other words, even perception of Star Trek is now influenced by Star Wars. This is a wild shame in my opinion. Star Trek at least tried to be science fiction while Star Wars, for all of its hardware, is obviously blatant fantasy. I've seen people get wildly incensed by my observation, but it is just my observation after all. If someone wants to tell me why Star Wars is science fiction while even its creator called it "Space Opera" is fine by me, but the visual trappings of hardware don't put science in the fiction. Still, the blind and all-pervasive love of Star Wars is here and it seems here to stay as it has been around since the mid 1970's and is extremely popular and accessible to all ages.
Star Trek seems to appeal to a much smaller section of the population. I like to think that this is somehow a better, more intelligent, or perhaps a more-thinking section of the population, but since I also consider myself influenced by both series (yes, I like Star Wars) I cannot really say that I am unbiased in my opinion(s).
But in short, yes, I think Star Trek is still an important part of (at least) American pop-culture.
Anywhere in the United States and a few other countries, if you were in any group of people of any age, you could make the statement, "I'm going to warp out of here!" and although you might get a couple of quizzical looks, everyone within that group would understand what you meant. You are leaving and quickly.
If you were driving and others were in the car with you, you could be cut off by another driver and mutter under your breath, "Set phasers to kill" or "Fire photon torpedoes" and it would be understood that you meant that the driver of the other car deserved to be destroyed for their actions.
If you were exasperated within any group, even children, and rolled your eyes after a particularly annoying diatribe by someone and you said, "Beam me up Scotty, there's NO intelligent life down here" you would not have to explain either what you meant, nor where the reference originated.
By those measures, I believe that Star Trek and its various sequels have become an integral component to the American Culture, and possibly a measurable section of world culture.
Now, as a member of a diehard fan base of the originally broadcast version of Star Trek, I know I am a member of a dying breed. To me, the 1960's version of Star Trek is Star Trek. But that's me. Star Trek is much more and includes movies and subsequent television series and a new line of Star Wars-influenced movies by J.J. Abrams. And I think this is probably most telling of all.
Star Wars, for all of its lack of science-fiction is more pervasive within our culture now. In other words, even perception of Star Trek is now influenced by Star Wars. This is a wild shame in my opinion. Star Trek at least tried to be science fiction while Star Wars, for all of its hardware, is obviously blatant fantasy. I've seen people get wildly incensed by my observation, but it is just my observation after all. If someone wants to tell me why Star Wars is science fiction while even its creator called it "Space Opera" is fine by me, but the visual trappings of hardware don't put science in the fiction. Still, the blind and all-pervasive love of Star Wars is here and it seems here to stay as it has been around since the mid 1970's and is extremely popular and accessible to all ages.
Star Trek seems to appeal to a much smaller section of the population. I like to think that this is somehow a better, more intelligent, or perhaps a more-thinking section of the population, but since I also consider myself influenced by both series (yes, I like Star Wars) I cannot really say that I am unbiased in my opinion(s).
But in short, yes, I think Star Trek is still an important part of (at least) American pop-culture.
Agreed! TOS is the only Star Trek for me too! Although I do watch the others, TNG, DS9 and VOY it's the original that really counts!
JB
JB
Glad to hear it!
Nicely said JB. I also watch the others. Often, my favorite episodes have something to do with the original crew.
It was great to see Scotty on the bridge of both the Next Generation Enterprise D AND on the bridge of the original Enterprise inside the holodeck on the Enterprise D.
Even with the series Enterprise, the last season had a great two-part episode that showed a Constitution Class ship and tied in to two episodes from the original series, "The Tholian Web" and "Mirror, Mirror" and it was my favorite two episodes of the entire show.
Even DSN had "Trials and Tribble-ations" which integrated scenes from "The Trouble With Tribbles" to great effect!
So what is your position? Bob Hope is or is not part of mainstream culture? What about Fred Astaire or Valentino?The comedian is different than the joke. Hope didn't build his career on telling jokes with references that people didn't get.People of what age?
Not all people are baby boomers.
Those things pass when new generations arrive.
Bob Hope was mainstream once as well.
807
Let me guess: all things before the 60's are "obviously" not part of pop culture while 60 and 70 items will forever be part of pop culture?
Seems like a case of "looking a the world through baby boomer glasses"
2995
My point was the humor in the joke relies partial on the audience, not just the comedian. Star Trek jokes tend to cross generational boundaries because Trek was so heavily rerun in the 70s and 80s and was a first run presence on TV and film in the 90s. Plus two films in the 2000s. So the audience gets the references.
Well speaking as someone who was born in the latter half of the Baby Boom my "pop culture" goes back to the films of the 30s and 40s and up to the present day. So references to Fred Astaire,Fred Flintstone, Fred Durst and Fred Weasley all mean something to me.
I am not a baby boomer. While I've not tested on today's generation of kids, Today's college students and possibly high school students would know a joke using Scotty. Even if they only knew if as a reference of a reference. Kind of like how I learned about some comedians of the 1930s and 40s from watching Rich Little impersonating them, and those were even recordings from when I was a baby or even before I was born.
Groucho Marx. Some kids today might have no clue who he is, but they've likely seen his jokes used in any number of cartoons. And they would recognize the jokes in his style.
James Doohan gave Scotty a particular style for Scotty's complaining about his engines and that has remained, even if the audiance does not know who Scotty is. They will recognized that style as it has been repeated in parody, many, many times.
In High School, we were suppose to do some sort of histiorical skit for class. Richard Nixon had died not too long before, so I wanted to do his resignation speech. Well in the days before the Internet being wide spread on campus, I couldn't find it. So I made one up. The problem with that is, that I needed to simulate Nixon. I'd not seen a lot of stuff with him speaking, so I did the next best thing....impersonate Rich Little impersonating Richard Nixon. A toned down exaggeration. It worked.
Groucho Marx. Some kids today might have no clue who he is, but they've likely seen his jokes used in any number of cartoons. And they would recognize the jokes in his style.
James Doohan gave Scotty a particular style for Scotty's complaining about his engines and that has remained, even if the audiance does not know who Scotty is. They will recognized that style as it has been repeated in parody, many, many times.
In High School, we were suppose to do some sort of histiorical skit for class. Richard Nixon had died not too long before, so I wanted to do his resignation speech. Well in the days before the Internet being wide spread on campus, I couldn't find it. So I made one up. The problem with that is, that I needed to simulate Nixon. I'd not seen a lot of stuff with him speaking, so I did the next best thing....impersonate Rich Little impersonating Richard Nixon. A toned down exaggeration. It worked.
^^Now that is some creative and effective problem-solving, Ithekro! There is a Socio-Media Case Study in there, somewhere. Also, nice analysis of how some of our Cultural Mainstays and Überreferents get handed down/communicated to The Next Generation.
(Cue Theme Music - shave Beard)
Well Done, Ithekro!
(Cue Theme Music - shave Beard)
Well Done, Ithekro!
I'd say that there was a time when Trek was part of a 'zeitgeist' that it currently no longer is, but that isn't exactly the same as popular culture.
On reflection I'd say it *is* pop culture, by the very merit that everybody knows who Spock and Kirk are. And Khaaaaaaan.They're icons, and that's enough to make it pop cultural.
But that isn't quite the same as, say, how people treat Star Wars with a kind of never-ending reverence, even when new productions aren't being made. Star Wars is the juggernaut of pop culture.
Star Trek is, and always will be, something 'other' to a lot of people.
Of course people know Spock and Kirk and Khan and even Picard! hell even ST II was the most mainstream out of any ST movie before Nutrek and TNG touched lives of 80s kids like me as much as the OS touched the lives of 60s kids.
30+ people are pop culture nowI'd say that there was a time when Trek was part of a 'zeitgeist' that it currently no longer is, but that isn't exactly the same as popular culture.
On reflection I'd say it *is* pop culture, by the very merit that everybody knows who Spock and Kirk are. And Khaaaaaaan.
But that isn't quite the same as, say, how people treat Star Wars with a kind of never-ending reverence, even when new productions aren't being made. Star Wars is the juggernaut of pop culture.
Star Trek is, and always will be, something 'other' to a lot of people.
Of course people know Spock and Kirk and Khan and even Picard! hell even ST II was the most mainstream out of any ST movie before Nutrek and TNG touched lives of 80s kids like me as much as the OS touched the lives of 60s kids.
5130
Coming late to the party:
The fact that Nimoy's death was front-page news, and that multiple "tribute" magazines quickly flooded grocery stores, drug stores, dollar stores, and so on, displayed alongside the latest issues of PEOPLE or COSMOPOLITAN, indicates to me that Spock (and by extension STAR TREK) is still deeply entrenched in American pop culture.
Again, we're not talking comic-book shops here or the dealers room at a Trek convention. We're talking the check-out line at your neighborhood grocery store.
The mainstream media would not have treated Nimoy's passing as a Big Deal unless they thought that the whole world still remembered Spock . . ..
The fact that Nimoy's death was front-page news, and that multiple "tribute" magazines quickly flooded grocery stores, drug stores, dollar stores, and so on, displayed alongside the latest issues of PEOPLE or COSMOPOLITAN, indicates to me that Spock (and by extension STAR TREK) is still deeply entrenched in American pop culture.
Again, we're not talking comic-book shops here or the dealers room at a Trek convention. We're talking the check-out line at your neighborhood grocery store.
The mainstream media would not have treated Nimoy's passing as a Big Deal unless they thought that the whole world still remembered Spock . . ..
That's a very good point, Greg Cox. I concede that something is rising to the level of integral, if newspapers feel justified, if not obligated, to give it front page coverage.
On that note, I'm taking back all objections I had to considering TOS integral to pop culture.
On that note, I'm taking back all objections I had to considering TOS integral to pop culture.
No, it just proves the baby boomers are now the old age executives and decision makers.
Think when you were young were your parents white screen heroes your heroes?
No! Those folks were totally old hat!
Each generation has its new cultural icons and ideals.
The idea that the baby boomer era will be any different is just an illusion in the minds of people who look at the world through baby boomer glasses.
51675168
I don't think it was as much of a baby boomer thing as he thinks...it was at least as much a Gen-X'er thing thanks to syndicated reruns in the 70s and the TOS movies in the 80s.
Trek material in standup routines was definitely pretty mainstream in the 80s...Jay Leno, Eddie Murphy, and Kevin Pollak provided particularly noteworthy examples.
Trek material in standup routines was definitely pretty mainstream in the 80s...Jay Leno, Eddie Murphy, and Kevin Pollak provided particularly noteworthy examples.
... who weren't wasting print-space or airtime with the news ....
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