Is there something wrong with me?

[cigol]

Hey everyone, I just signed up to this forum because I have been watching DS9 on Amazon, and I guess I'm a bit confused about a few things..

Firstly, I am not a typical Star Trek fan.. In fact, up until this year, I have only ever watched Star Trek Voyager! I started watching it late at night around 10 years ago or so, and just got addicted to the story, the characters, and the
general awesomeness of it all.

Well, when Netflix added the star trek series to the instant watching, I was excited to revisit the series. I watched every episode again, and it was great - but i wanted more. So I decided to give TNG a try.

I watched a lot of the first season, and it was pretty bad. but it was the 80's, so i tried the next season. It was just as bad. I then started hopping around various episodes from various seasons, and watched a few TNG movies. I just couldn't really get into it. It just wasn't as good as Voyager to me.

So I read some articles about Star Trek and everyone seemed to praise DS9 for their rich characters and dark themes, so i gave it a try on Amazon Prime (that actually sounds like a star trek planet, doesn't it?).

DS9 is great! I really like it. Sisko is awesome, and I really like O'Brien, Odo, and Quark. I am halfway through season 3, but something just doesn't sit well with me.

For a show that is almost universally touted for having really fleshed-out characters, they just don't seem to hold a candle to the Voyager crew. I mean, Sisko is great, and he is probably my favorite character in DS9, but he just doesn't seem to be as well-rounded as Janeway was.

In fact, at the risk of being thrown out of these forums ;p -

O'Brien and Quark seem to be the only two characters on the show (so far, for me) on par with the richness of the characters in Voyager.

Dax seems really fake to me, I can't believe her character for a second. In every episode she takes the oppurtunity to remind us that she's lived seven lives, and that just feels really shallow and insulting.

Bashir is ok sometimes, but more often he is just oblivious to everything and annoying. I could compare him to Neelix, but at least Neelix was consistant with his personality.. Bashir is top-notch brilliant doctor one second, then he's a hyper dog jumping around everyone else for affection the next.

Even Kira doesn't really feel real to me that often, although her performance in "Duet" (Season 1) was incredible.

Not to mention Jake, Nog, Rom, and most of the Bajoran visitors that frequently visit the station. Almost everyone feels way too one-dimensional.

That isn't to say I'm not enjoying the series - it is great, but nothing so far has come close to Voyager for me - does that mean there is something wrong with me?

 

[RoJoHen]

TNG is great, but it hasn't really held up well over time. Compared to a lot of shows today, even compared to DS9 and VOY, it's pretty dry. I can see a newcomer having a really hard time getting into it.

As for DS9, you've barely gotten started! The next few seasons will be some of the best of any TV show. Give it a little more time, and I think you will definitely start to see improvements with the characters.

That said, I too prefer the VOY characters over the DS9 ones. I just thought they were more fun. DS9 has a much richer story, though.

 

[xortex]

Middle child syndrome. Vgr also had many more much higher concepts yet solid character stuff because Micheal Piller was there and Ronald D. Moore wasn't though he tried but was too power hungry. He thought he could come in and take over just by writing character alone. Piller knew how to get out of his own way, and delighted in other's ideas where Moore got overbloated and full of himself. Stories do get better in DS9 due to Robert Hewitt Wolfe I guess but you'll eventually hit refried Grilka and Echieviera's emo crap.

 

[cigol]

That's good news, I read elsewhere that "DS9 was great until the Dominion War takes over the series", and I can tell that is creeping up soon from where I am in the series. I was a little worried about it, since I read that particular opinion on a few sites, but I think I'll really like to see an ongoing conflict like that. I can't really see how that *wouldn't* be interesting.

 

[RoJoHen]

I just think some people didn't like the idea of a war being the central theme in a Star Trek series. Personally, I think the Dominion War is fantastic.

 

[scotpens]

After you’ve thoroughly acquainted yourself with TNG, DS9 and Voyager, you might want to experience the original Star Trek from 1966–69. It may look like a creaky antique (I assume you’re fairly young) but remember — this is where it all started.

 

[You_Will_Fail]

I'd love to know how you think Janeway is a "well rounded" character. Her character had no place in reality, it made no sense.

DS9's characters are much more fleshed out than Voyager's, that's just fact.
Voyager had a lot more high concept shows than character shows (which is fine with me because I love high concept shows) and even when there IS a character show on Voyager, it doesn't really affect the character afterwards which is really the important thing to note.
"Barge of the Dead" from Voyager season 6 is one of my all time favorite Trek episodes but I don't think anyone can argue how any of that had a noticeable impact on the Torres character.
The lack of continuity and episode-episode progression and relation makes it harder to really feel that Voyager's character were real. We have traumatic things happening to characters or major life changing events but they're forgotten the next week.
And some Voyager characters just sit in limbo for most of the show because the writers aren't that interested. Who knows what Harry or Chakotay were doing for most of the journey home because we certainly didn't see them do much except work. And after Kes left, Neelix was just happy to fart about and occassionally panic about his dead relatives. The writers didn't take a holistic approach to the Voyager crew and treat them like they had lives. They were more interested in developing a lot of episodes that could easily be watched out of order (what UPN wanted) and that severely stymied how *REAL* the crew felt.

After you finish DS9, you WILL know much more about the characters than what we knew about the VOY characters, and they'll seem a lot more real for better or worse.

When it comes down to which show you prefer, Voyager had a much glossier sheen to it which some people prefer and dealt in a lot of high concept science fiction as opposed to story arcs and continuity. It just depends whether that's what you're after.
Personally I found DS9's long term approach to story-telling more nourishing but Voyager probably has more rewatch value due to the standalone "sci-fi concept of the week" nature of it and boy did it have a lot of great concept episodes.

That brings me to TNG. In my opinion, Voyager really took off where TNG season 6 and 7 left. And if you see a couple of episodes from those seasons, you'll probably see that Voyager was similar to them - a lot of high concept sci-fi and focus on a character trying to find their humanity - The Doctor/Seven of Nine.
DS9 on the other hand felt like a completely different show and approach altogether after the first couple of seasons.
The reason a lot of people say Voyager failed in my opinion is simply because it didn't exploit its premise and was happy enough to be a TNG-esque continuation of the series which gave us a lot more TNG season 6/7-esque stuff but not enough unique Voyager stuff.

I'd say give TNG another chance, seasons 1 and 2 are horrible but seasons 3 onwards is really great.

 

[xortex]

The detachment came from Braga. Berman was just detached from talent. No wonder why Enterprise bombed. They finally brought in the fat lady clown to sing at the end. I guess they were trying not to take themselves too seriously. Politics in hell.

 

[ngc7293]

I liked all the shows, but I can see where Voyager was lacking. Janeway takes in the Maki and puts them in command positions?
Harry Kim the Forever Ensign... Paris is promoted, then demoted and then promoted again.
The ship seems to have an endless supply of shuttles.
The ship is supposed to have rations, yet Paris is able to build an entire shuttle and as far as I have read there is no room for that shuttle.
The show's only consistency is that it is inconsistent.

And yet as has been said before (in rough terms) it is a watchable show.

 

[cigol]

I'd love to know how you think Janeway is a "well rounded" character. Her character had no place in reality, it made no sense.

Come on, you've never had a woman in your life like Janeway? Strong, warm, stern when need be, compassionate, overtly passionate about what she's doing? I admit, she did make a few seemingly out-of-character decisions, but Chakotay called her out almost every time and that is when they butted heads the worst. It isn't like her seemingly bad decisions weren't clearly defined by this opposition from her first officer. To me, this made her a very fleshed-out character. She wanted nothing more than to be the consummate captain, but she was often blinded by her gut.

After Caretaker, Janeway knew she made the right decision by destroying his array. But as the series progressed, she began to question that decision, and she obviously struggled with it. She also relaxed her position on Starfleet regulations and the way she conducts herself with the crew. This was a gradual change, and it is a realistic portrayal of what seven years lost in space can do to anyone, even a starfleet captain.

I see your point about Seven of Nine, but the Doctor started exploring his humanity very early on in the series at the urging of Kes. He slowly developed himself into what he was by season 7, and that is arguably the most human character on the whole ship. He did this slowly, for the most part. small steps.

I think the only characters in Voyager that weren't exactly "fleshed out" were Harry Kim and Chakotay (especially later on in the series). Also, a side note, Chakotay smiled too much. He always had that "your mom and i are amused by you children" smirk on his face. I may hate him.

And sure, Voyager episodes had little story-arc continuity, but they were traveling back from the Delta Quadrant. Species they saw in season 1 rarely showed up later in the series, and new species and events were constantly being introduced. Because of the nature of the series, a journey back home, a season-long conflict or anything like that would be ridiculous.

But that doesn't mean there wasn't continuity! Remember how Kes experienced the Year of Hell when she was going back in time? The next season, the Year of Hell happened. Remember when they entered Borg Space? the Borg were a constant threat during that time.

After watching some DS9, I do think Voyager was a little too squeaky-clean, but I still think they had the most interesting characters (at the moment).

 

[Kelthaz]

TOS is hard science fiction.
TNG is dry social and political commentary.
DS9 is a soap opera.
VOY is light and fluffy fun.
ENT is shit.

All the shows have their pros and cons that will appeal to different people for different reasons, so pick your poison.

 

[cigol]

I liked all the shows, but I can see where Voyager was lacking. Janeway takes in the Maki and puts them in command positions?
Harry Kim the Forever Ensign... Paris is promoted, then demoted and then promoted again.
The ship seems to have an endless supply of shuttles.
The ship is supposed to have rations, yet Paris is able to build an entire shuttle and as far as I have read there is no room for that shuttle.
The show's only consistency is that it is inconsistent.

And yet as has been said before (in rough terms) it is a watchable show.

What else could she have done with the Maquis? Leave them in the Delta Quadrant? Or maybe just have them on the ship as guests or prisoners? She was in a tough situation. Chakotay had previous Starfleet experience. He knew the drill. She needed Chakotay as her first officer to gain the loyalty of the Maquis. And even then, that was a point they returned to a lot early on in the series. It took a long time for the crews to actually work together and respect eachother. She didn't promote any other Maquis as far as I know, other than B'Elanna - and that took a whole episode to convince her to do *that*. It was the first time her and Chakotay really went at it. And besides.. any Maquis that had rank on Voyager only had a "provisional" rank. Even Chakotay.

Poor Harry Kim. Apparantly, Voyager had a limited number of actual rank promotions that could be given out. Janeway touched on this a few times. They can't have a ship full of lt commanders running around. This is the way it is on any ship, even today. Often times, a promotion on a ship means a transfer to another ship to accomodate your new position and duties. This would have been kind of hard to do with Voyager

My feeling about the promotion/demotion/repromotion of Tom Paris is that Janeway wanted him to be a Lieutenant all along, and the demotion was merely a temporary punishment for something she may have actually empathized with.

As for shuttles and rations and how can Tom create a ship out of thin air, I don't really know. I know they often traded with others for supplies and things, so it wouldnt be out of the question to overlook a few of these flaws. The shuttles issue does fluctuate, though, and is a bigger problem. Sometimes they have 5, sometimes 6, sometimes, 8, yadda yadda.

Every show has inconsistencies. The internet is full of sites devoted to pointing these out for all types of tv programs. Maybe one day we will have shows without these issues, but we aren't quite there yet

 

[GSnail]

TOS is hard science fiction.
TNG is dry social and political commentary.
DS9 is a soap opera.
VOY is light and fluffy fun.
ENT is shit.

All the shows have their pros and cons that will appeal to different people for different reasons, so pick your poison.

TOS is hard science fiction? I love TOS, don't get me wrong, but I'd say the later incarnations are so much harder. My view on TOS is that it is very goofy and charming, even though (and possibly because) the plots don't make sense. And fake accents.

 

[cigol]

Also, another pretty long story arc with lots of continuity I just remembered: the arc where jonas was feeding information to the kazons and seska, and tom paris acting like a jerk during that same period. That happened for more than a few episodes if i remember correctly.

And as has already been mentioned, Tom Paris' demotion and how he and others mentioned it a lot during that span of time: continuity

oh and project Pathfinder and how Voyager was ultimately able to communicate with Starfleet every 30 days, that was continuity, too.

I guess I could do this all day, so I'll just stop

 

[cigol]

Oh, and You_Will_Fail, I'll give TNG another shot after i'm done with DS9, I just hope you're right about Season 3 onwards

I did see "Generations" recently, and I really liked it (I don't think that is a very popular view, either). Even though I haven't seen most of the series, I do read a lot about the characters, and I think i have a general understanding of most of them (from TOS and TNG).

I watched Generations mostly as a curiosity after that Tuvok Flashback episode when he served on the Excelsior, btw. I was surprised to actually see Tim Russ on the Enterprise during what was that same situation! Talk about inconsistency..

 

[Kelthaz]

TOS is hard science fiction? I love TOS, don't get me wrong, but I'd say the later incarnations are so much harder. My view on TOS is that it is very goofy and charming, even though (and possibly because) the plots don't make sense. And fake accents.

TOS had this encountering strange new life and exploring the wonders of the universe thing going for it that the other series lacked. The other series used science fiction as a setting, while TOS fully embraced it as a concept.

 

[scotpens]

TOS had this encountering strange new life and exploring the wonders of the universe thing going for it that the other series lacked. The other series used science fiction as a setting, while TOS fully embraced it as a concept.

Nonetheless, TOS was created — and sold — primarily as action-adventure with a science fiction background. That didn’t stop it from having some great stories, a lot of mediocre ones, and some real stinkeroos.

 

[Bry_Sinclair]

I always think that when DS9 started they didn't really know what to do, since the station doesn't go anywhere they have to deal with the repercussions of their decision rather than just flying off and never looking back. So for me the first couple of series are a little weak (this is most evident with Dax, who starts off as a Spock-esque character, all calm and logical, before they made her relish in her past lives and experiences), but once they find their feet DS9 is simply amazing!

As for VOY, I quite liked the first few seasons, up until it became Star Trek: The Adventures Of Seven. Once she came on I lost interest and actually missed most of season 7. Voyager had the chance to become a good series if they had watched the continuity, had a natural progression of episodes, where events for one impacted on another, and if they had actually stated;
JANEWAY: B'Elanna we'll need a shuttle for this mission, get to the shuttlecraft replicator and ready a type-8 please.

In my humble opinion, Voyager can't hold a candle to Deep Space 9. But that is just my preference.

 

[xortex]

TOS had this encountering strange new life and exploring the wonders of the universe thing going for it that the other series lacked. The other series used science fiction as a setting, while TOS fully embraced it as a concept.

Nonetheless, TOS was created — and sold — primarily as action-adventure with a science fiction background. That didn’t stop it from having some great stories, a lot of mediocre ones, and some real stinkeroos.

Still it was plot driven. It didn't pretend to be a character oriented speculative fest like Vgr. It embraced and embodied true sci-fi where the others shyed away from it and were embarrased and ashamed of it for the sake of viewership I suspect. Of course. The producers didn't love sci-fi and that was reflected on screen. It was just a backdrop to them and was too silly and corny and hokey for their sophistocated take and approach to their more serious literature.

 

[GSnail]

TOS had this encountering strange new life and exploring the wonders of the universe thing going for it that the other series lacked. The other series used science fiction as a setting, while TOS fully embraced it as a concept.

Nonetheless, TOS was created — and sold — primarily as action-adventure with a science fiction background. That didn’t stop it from having some great stories, a lot of mediocre ones, and some real stinkeroos.

Still it was plot driven. It didn't pretend to be a character oriented speculative fest like Vgr. It embraced and embodied true sci-fi where the others shyed away from it and were embarrased and ashamed of it for the sake of viewership I suspect. Of course. The producers didn't love sci-fi and that was reflected on screen. It was just a backdrop to them and was too silly and corny and hokey for their sophistocated take and approach to their more serious literature.

But does that make it 'hard' sci fi? The way it was defined to me, hard sci fi is "science, science, science, science, teeeny bit of plot, science..." TOS had plots, not always realistic ones, but definitely entertaining nonetheless. What you are describing is simply the difference between well written sci-fi and 'badly' written sci-fi. In my opinion at least