Is there any chance Trek XI is the real timeline?

[Magickthise]

And Trek as we know it until now is the alternate timeline?

I mean Trek as we know it has gangster planets & parallel earths galore, tribbles, Harry Mudd, Kirk talking computers to death, Spock's Brain, the outrageous Okuna and Voyager. Is it possible that Nero and Old Spock are hapless pawns in some unseen 24th century entity's attempt to restore the real timeline?

 

[Elysion]

Who knows what's on the writers mind...

 

[Garrovick]

Wait for part two.

 

[All Seeing Eye]

This thread needs sucking into a quantum singularity before the universe implodes in on itself.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

Neither of them are real. They are parallel constructions, though.

 

[Magickthise]

Wait for part two.

I have high expectations for Star Trek II, that's a fact.

 

[USS Renegade]

No, Star Trek XI is NOT in the Prime Timeline, and never was.

I was VERY poor and it took me a week to see ST: XI, and then I was very busy and I couldn't get on Trek BBS. I have been looking through threads, and I have not seen this brought up, but it caught my attention immediately.

Star Trek XI took place in a parallel reality. From beginning to end, it was NOT the universe that TOS, TNG, DS9, and VOY took place in.


And here is why...

BEFORE the temporal incursion by Nero, the crew of the U.S.S. Kelvin were wearing the Starfleet Delta insignia. This insignia was also worn by all the cadets at Starfleet Academy.

As shown in TOS, and stated in DS9: Trials and Tribbleations, each starship and starbase had their own unique insignia. The delta was this ship insignia of the Starship Enterprise, and because of the many legendary deeds of the Enterprise and her crew, the Enterprise Delta was adopted as the official insignia of the entire Starfleet.

Thus, as it relates to canon, the temporal changes caused by Nero had no effect on the Prime Star Trek universe. Not because the new movie uses a Quantum Theory of Time Travel, as opposed to a Linear Theory, but because it was always an alternate quantum reality to begin with.

If anything, this is the quantum reality that Enterprise existed in, which makes total sense. The newest Trek TV show is a prequel to the newest Trek Movie, and neither have any relation to the Prime Timeline of TOS, TNG, DS9, and VOY.

 

[Maxillius]

That is an acceptable theory

 

[Amaris]

Indeed. It is quite intelligent and well thought out.


J.

 

[Silent_Bob]

If anything, this is the quantum reality that Enterprise existed in, which makes total sense. The newest Trek TV show is a prequel to the newest Trek Movie, and neither have any relation to the Prime Timeline of TOS, TNG, DS9, and VOY.

Which also makes it the Quantum reality that the Enterprise E crossed over to when they pissed about with the events of First Contact, which is probably why the whole thing diverged in the first place. I can live with that.

It also explains the whole NX-01-A thing from Voyager, and why there is no NX-01 in the cabinet of ships on the E-E, because in the Prime Timeline the NX-01 was called Dauntless.

 

[Cky]

No, Star Trek XI is NOT in the Prime Timeline, and never was.

I was VERY poor and it took me a week to see ST: XI, and then I was very busy and I couldn't get on Trek BBS. I have been looking through threads, and I have not seen this brought up, but it caught my attention immediately.

Star Trek XI took place in a parallel reality. From beginning to end, it was NOT the universe that TOS, TNG, DS9, and VOY took place in.


And here is why...

BEFORE the temporal incursion by Nero, the crew of the U.S.S. Kelvin were wearing the Starfleet Delta insignia. This insignia was also worn by all the cadets at Starfleet Academy.

As shown in TOS, and stated in DS9: Trials and Tribbleations, each starship and starbase had their own unique insignia. The delta was this ship insignia of the Starship Enterprise, and because of the many legendary deeds of the Enterprise and her crew, the Enterprise Delta was adopted as the official insignia of the entire Starfleet.

Thus, as it relates to canon, the temporal changes caused by Nero had no effect on the Prime Star Trek universe. Not because the new movie uses a Quantum Theory of Time Travel, as opposed to a Linear Theory, but because it was always an alternate quantum reality to begin with.

If anything, this is the quantum reality that Enterprise existed in, which makes total sense. The newest Trek TV show is a prequel to the newest Trek Movie, and neither have any relation to the Prime Timeline of TOS, TNG, DS9, and VOY.

Actually I'm pretty sure that the whole badge of the Enterprise being the Starfleet symbol was retconned a while back because the badge is pretty much the defining symbol of Star Trek.

Also, it's been said many times before that the attack on the USS Kelvin exists within the "Prime" timeline, and those events (from the second the Kelvin saw the lightening storm in space) fractured off in to an alternate reality.

Oh, and a quick edit. We also have no idea where the symbol from the Enterprise came from, we have no clue what happened during the events of Enterprise and TOS, so it's perfectly logical to assume that the Kelvin had the universal symbol for the Federation, and then in TOS the Enterprise decided to adopt this as they were the flagship. You'll also notice the Kelvin didn't have the star in the centre, so it wasn't the same.

 

[erebus]

All the timelines have equal validity or they wouldn't exist. The timeline you are in is always the real one

 

[TrekGuide.com]

Thus, as it relates to canon, the temporal changes caused by Nero had no effect on the Prime Star Trek universe. Not because the new movie uses a Quantum Theory of Time Travel, as opposed to a Linear Theory, but because it was always an alternate quantum reality to begin with.

If anything, this is the quantum reality that Enterprise existed in, which makes total sense. The newest Trek TV show is a prequel to the newest Trek Movie, and neither have any relation to the Prime Timeline of TOS, TNG, DS9, and VOY.

Yes, with all the meddling with the timeline throughout "Enterprise," from the Borg Queen to FutureGuy, Daniels, the Suliban, the Sphere-Builders and the Xindi, many important changes to the timeline were created, so even before the start of "Star Trek XI," there could have been many changes to Federation history that the movie doesn't even address.

"Star Trek XI" is not a prequel to TOS. It is chronologically and causally the next episode of "Enterprise," and is the result of all altered timelines seen from "Star Trek: First Contact" and "Voyager" through "Enterprise."

After all that, I would not expect Stardate 2233.04 in the post-"Enterprise" timeline to remotely resemble Stardate 2233.04 in the un-altered pre-TOS timeline, regardless of Nero's presence.

 

[EnsignRicky]

A very logical theory. Also in this reality, Kirk in all likelihood doesn't have a much older brother either. Come what may, my biggest hope for the sequel is that before writing it they wheel a giant chalkboard into the room and jot down the following, NO F@C&I#G TIME TRAVEL!!

 

[USS Renegade]

Actually I'm pretty sure that the whole badge of the Enterprise being the Starfleet symbol was retconned a while back because the badge is pretty much the defining symbol of Star Trek.

Retconned a while back? That is pretty vague. Retconned by whom? When?

Oh, and a quick edit. We also have no idea where the symbol from the Enterprise came from, we have no clue what happened during the events of Enterprise and TOS, so it's perfectly logical to assume that the Kelvin had the universal symbol for the Federation, and then in TOS the Enterprise decided to adopt this as they were the flagship. You'll also notice the Kelvin didn't have the star in the centre, so it wasn't the same.

Whoah. I think your logic is flawed. First off, we do know where the symbol from Kirk's Enterprise came from. It came from Kirk's Enterprise. Second, how do we have no clue what happened during the events of Enterprise and TOS? I mean, watch the shows. They are on DVD.

And why would the Enterprise need to adopt the universal symbol of the Federation? If it is the universal symbol, everyone would have already had it, including the Enterprise. The thing is, only the Enterprise had it. Each ship and starbase had a unique symbol. You can see this in TOS by watching the DVDs or the reruns. It is backed up by dialogue in DS9. The symbol of Kirk's flagship was adopted by the entire fleet.

Finally, the star in the center is irrelevant. That was a universal designation of Starfleet division.

Command Division

Science Division

Engineering/Operations Division

Medical Division (Non com)

And here are some of the other ships insignias...

USS Lexington

USS Hood

USS Defiant

USS Constitution

Also, it's been said many times before that the attack on the USS Kelvin exists within the "Prime" timeline, and those events (from the second the Kelvin saw the lightening storm in space) fractured off in to an alternate reality.

It doesn't matter how many times it has been said. It was said by Gene Roddenberry that Captain Robert April was the first commanding officer of the U.S.S. Enterprise. Even though the man that created the show said it, Captain April never appeared, nor was he ever mentioned, in any television episode nor in any movie, and therefore Captain April was not canon.

I'm just going by strict canon here. Canon states the insignias were different until sometime between TOS and TMP. The Kelvin having the Enterprise insignias infers that Star Trek XI did NOT take place in the same quantum reality as TOS, TNG, DS9, and VOY. All I have to back that up is what is shown and stated on screen.

 

[Wowbagger]

Borrowing a response from Closettrekker of TrekMovie's comment threads:

Remember that in 2233, the USS Enterprise doesn’t exist. Just imagine that the delta insignia belonged at that time to the USS Kelvin, and–in the Prime timeline–was passed along to the Enterprise upon the Kelvin’s decommissioning.

However, in the altered timeline, Starfleet has adopted the delta shield as universal in honor of the brave actions of the Captain and First Officer of that ship in 2233.

If they can erect a shipyard (as well as USS Kelvin salt-shakers) in Riverside, Iowa in honor of George Kirk, then why not?

Perfectly reasonable. There is no evidence, canonical or otherwise, that the Enterprise mission patch originated with the Enterprise, though we know it was used exclusively by the Enterprise thirty years after the Kelvin incident.

Indeed, it makes sense in either universe for Jim Kirk to want to use the mission patch from his daddy's ship.

Additionally: crewmembers from non-Enterprise assignments were seen wearing the supposedly Enterprise-specific mission patch in "Court Martial," and, to my memory, there is no actual canonical evidence for the long-held belief that the mission patches were all converted to the Enterprise patch in order to "commemorate the Enterprise's historic mission." That seems to just be a piece of fanon we've attached to the visible fact that all ships and badges now use the familiar arrowhead shape.

In short, it's a neat theory, but no. There's no reason to interpret the pre-Nero incursion 'verse as a non-Prime reality.

Now, the much more interesting challenge is interpreting the post-Nero incursion 'verse as sharing the Prime reality with TOS. Just for funsies, I'm working on that. We'll see whether I manage to be the first one done with a full treatment of the idea or not.

 

[USS Renegade]

Perfectly reasonable. There is no evidence, canonical or otherwise, that the Enterprise mission patch originated with the Enterprise, though we know it was used exclusively by the Enterprise thirty years after the Kelvin incident.

Well, technically speaking, the Kelvin incident didn't occur until the Nero incursion. When it was used exclusively by the Enterprise, there was no Kelvin incident. After the Nero incursion and the Kelvin incident, it was NOT exclusive to the Enterprise.

Indeed, it makes sense in either universe for Jim Kirk to want to use the mission patch from his daddy's ship.

That does make sense. But Jim Kirk did not decide to use that mission patch. It was already in use on the Enterprise when he took command from Captain Pike. So it was either chosen by Pike or by Starfleet, but definitely not by Jim Kirk.

Additionally: crewmembers from non-Enterprise assignments were seen wearing the supposedly Enterprise-specific mission patch in "Court Martial," and, to my memory, there is no actual canonical evidence for the long-held belief that the mission patches were all converted to the Enterprise patch in order to "commemorate the Enterprise's historic mission." That seems to just be a piece of fanon we've attached to the visible fact that all ships and badges now use the familiar arrowhead shape.

True about Court Martial, but that was more production error/budget reduction than anything else. I mean, "Time Warp Drive" is mentioned in one of the first episodes as well. But canon corrected itself.

As for it being fanon, I thought for sure it was mentioned in Trials and Tribbleations.

In short, it's a neat theory, but no. There's no reason to interpret the pre-Nero incursion 'verse as a non-Prime reality.

I still think it has merit.

 

[Jayson]

Depends on the divergent point. If the timeline doesn't diverge until the Kelvin is destroyed then that means it sort of is the same timeline in the same way Thomas Riker and Will Riker use to be the same person until the transporter accident. If the divergent point is effected at a earlier stage due to the fact the temporal cold war and other time travel events won't happen then it could have diverged so far back that it was never part of the Prime universe.

Jason

 

[gastrof]

Facts-

The Kelvin crew did wear the delta/arrowhead badge, long before the Enterprise was built in either timeline. This means that they had it even in the timeline where they WEREN'T destroyed, since they were all wearing it even before Nero got there.

I have no memory of the badge shapes being mentioned in TRIALS AND TRIBBLEATIONS.

ENTERPRISE took place in the main Trek universe, since Borg from the 24th century were found on Earth in an Enterprise episode...the crash having taken place in the Picard movie First Contact.

There was never anything said about the Enterprise crossing into a parallel universe in FC. Rather, considering the fact that THEIR Earth was changed when the Borg changed history, Enterprise E went back to the past of their own reality...the mainstream Trek universe.

The NX-01 wasn't in the group of ships displayed on Enterprise D or E because they were FEDERATION starships, and Archer's Enterprise was only an Earth ship.

We didn't even learn who the guy was that was yelling at young James T. while he was driving the car in ST XI. Behind the scenes stuff says it was his step-father, but much going on in that family was left out. NOTHING in the film says that George and Winona did NOT have a son older than Jim, or that the older boy didn't also exist in ST XI's reality. We also never saw Jim's grandparents, but that doesn't mean they never existed.

The Delta badge was seen in an illusion during THE CAGE on the uniform of someone who likely was NOT a member of the Enterprise crew, having a uniform very different from theirs. The Talosians would have made sure the illusion was realistic, and based on Pike's knowledge of how things were.

Starfleet personel from other ships were seen wearing the delta during the run of TOS. There were also ships/bases that had their own badge shapes.

In STAR TREK, changing the past has never meant creating an offshoot reality. It changes the one reality of that universe, and can even be fixed by further time travel.

 

[Jon1701]

In STAR TREK, changing the past has never meant creating an offshoot reality. It changes the one reality of that universe, and can even be fixed by further time travel.

True, but real world theories of Time Travel have changed somewhat.

Star Trek has been going for 43 years in the real world. Stuff changes. Until a few years ago, there were 9 planets in our Solar system. We now know there are 8. Star Trek is full of references to "9" planets.

Will all future episodes and movies of Star Trek refer to 9 planets?

Stuff changes in the real world. You have to allow for that. Scientists used to think that changing the past altered the future. We now think otherwise, or at the least we think both theories are possible.