Is there a room aboard the Excelsior with pictures or models of past Excelsiors?

[Dukhat]

Honestly — and this is really all I think I should say further on this — I see and even get the arguments you’re making here, but it reminds me of a discussion I had with someone at a Doctor Who meetup shortly after we first got a glimpse of “Presenting Sir John Hurt as the Doctor!”, but before the following season. A fellow I got to talking with about it went into excellent, detailed argument explaining why Hurt could not possibly be playing an actual previous incarnation of the Doctor whom we hadn’t been shown before.

The show did it anyway, of course. All the reasons in the world a given viewer might disagree with it didn’t change this.

The problem with the Titan, however, is when you look at the situation empirically, the Titan-A cannot possibly be the same ship as the Luna class from LDS, despite the dialogue calling it a refit, or however Matalas wanted to justify its existence.

Let’s look at the timeline.

2379: Riker get a new command, the USS Titan, in Star Trek: Nemesis. We don’t see the ship or know anything about it other than its name.

2380: We finally see the novelverse design of the Luna class Titan in Lower Decks: “No Small Parts.”

2381: Thaddeus Riker is born. Over the years he will have lived on several starships, implying that Riker & Troi left the Titan at some point after 2381 and that Riker captained more ships before retiring around 2391.

2396: The Luna class Titan is decommissioned and the Constitution class Titan-A is commissioned.


So here’s my question: Why would Shaw be complaining about having to purge his ship’s computers of Riker’s jazz music when Riker had no longer even been in command of the ship for at least 5 years, and at most 15? Wouldn’t the Titan have had at least one more captain after Riker, or likely a succession of them, before Shaw took command in 2396 (and that’s assuming the Titan and the Titan-A are the same ship?)

This is a situation of Matalas having his cake and eating it too. He clearly wanted to link his new Titan to the ship mentioned in Nemesis, despite the fact that it could not logically be the same ship. So he added some clumsy dialogue to try to make it all fit, but the evidence supports two different vessels far more than the dialogue implies.

 

[Tuskin38]

Yeah it really did feel like Matalas didn't know Riker's Titan had already shown up in Lower Decks at first, but he really wanted a ship to be named Titan.

 

[Citiprime]

If I remember correctly, Matalas gave interviews around the time of Picard season 3's premiere saying the intention was:

1. The Titan-A is technically a "new" ship made with elements of Riker's Titan.
2. The original Titan was cannibalized to create the Titan-A.
3. This is how it can be both referred to as a "new" ship and have people talk about it as the same ship, since it's a hybrid with significant new elements built on the shell of the old Titan.

That's why it's both referred to as both a new ship and a refit that supposedly had elements of the old ship, and the line between a refit and a brand-new ship gets fuzzy.

I wondered whether if this is the result of Utopia Planitia having been destroyed and starship construction is still problematic due to the problems on Mars. It would explain why Starfleet is having to cannibalize starships instead of just decommissioning the old stuff and starting from scratch with a new design.

Either the destruction of Utopia Planitia put a significant strain on their ability to produce new equipment, or maybe the policy changes hinted at in Picard season 1, where Federation policy saw Starfleet withdraw from involving itself in galactic affairs and turned inward. So maybe the production of new starships is not a priority and Starfleet was forced into cannibalizing old ships.

 

[Dukhat]

Yeah it really did feel like Matalas didn't know Riker's Titan had already shown up in Lower Decks at first, but he really wanted a ship to be named Titan.

Well, he obviously knew about the LDS ship because there was a model of it in the Titan’s ready room. But yes, he seemed to want to have a link between his ship and the one mentioned in Nemesis despite that.

If I remember correctly, Matalas gave interviews around the time of Picard season 3's premiere saying the intention was:

1. The Titan-A is technically a "new" ship made with elements of Riker's Titan.
2. The original Titan was cannibalized to create the Titan-A.
3. This is how it can be both referred to as a "new" ship and have people talk about it as the same ship, since it's a hybrid with significant new elements built on the shell of the old Titan.

That's why it's both referred to as both a new ship and a refit that supposedly had elements of the old ship, and the line between a refit and a brand-new ship gets fuzzy.

I wondered whether if this is the result of Utopia Planitia having been destroyed and starship construction is still problematic due to the problems on Mars. It would explain why Starfleet is having to cannibalize starships instead of just decommissioning the old stuff and starting from scratch with a new design.

Either the destruction of Utopia Planitia put a significant strain on their ability to produce new equipment, or maybe the policy changes hinted at in Picard season 1, where Federation policy saw Starfleet withdraw from involving itself in galactic affairs and turned inward. So maybe the production of new starships is not a priority and Starfleet was forced into cannibalizing old ships.

Cannibalizing the Titan’s computers into the Titan-A still doesn’t fix the incredibly clunky dialogue about Shaw erasing Riker’s jazz programs. By that time Riker’s influence on the ship would have been nonexistent. Sometimes dumb writing is just dumb writing. Clearly Matalas wanted the audience to think the Titan-A was the same ship mentioned in Nemesis, and that Riker was its only captain despite evidence to the contrary.

 

[The Wormhole]

It would explain why Starfleet is having to cannibalize starships instead of just decommissioning the old stuff and starting from scratch with a new design.

Starfleet had no problem finding a couple hundred "newest and most advanced" ships at the end of S1.

 

[Dukhat]

Starfleet had no problem finding a couple hundred "newest and most advanced" ships at the end of S1.

Or the ginormous fleet seen on Frontier Day, all of which seem to be brand-new designs. Clearly Starfleet doesn’t need to cannibalize anything.

 

[Citiprime]

Cannibalizing the Titan’s computers into the Titan-A still doesn’t fix the incredibly clunky dialogue about Shaw erasing Riker’s jazz programs. By that time Riker’s influence on the ship would have been nonexistent. Sometimes dumb writing is just dumb writing. Clearly Matalas wanted the audience to think the Titan-A was the same ship mentioned in Nemesis, and that Riker was its only captain despite evidence to the contrary.

I always saw Shaw's remark as a dick-measuring move meant to spite Riker and Picard because of his resentments for their part in "Best of Both Worlds," but also because he knows on some level they're not being honest about their intentions. For all we know, the jazz collection could have been some sort of special Titan tradition Riker left behind for the captain who succeeded him (e.g., think of Sisko's baseball on Deep Space Nine), and this was Shaw's way of saying "F--- You" by other means.

Starfleet had no problem finding a couple hundred "newest and most advanced" ships at the end of S1.

The less said about that fleet the better. But one possible way of looking at Starfleet's actions in Picard in totality is that they built all those new ships, but they're an F-35-like cookie cutter solution that's just enough for defensive needs, instead of for an expansive exploratory/outreach type of Starfleet similar to what occurred in Picard's and Kirk's day. Automating and reducing the need for having an expansive Starfleet infrastructure may be the entire reason for stuff like "Fleet Formation."

And maybe anything beyond the bare necessity for defense results in a struggle where you have to cannibalize starships for those roles. I mean they didn't build a whole new Enterprise-G. They just changed the registry of the Titan in the end.

 

[Dukhat]

You’re welcome to try to justify the dialogue.
To me it’s just sloppy writing. Yes, I know we’re supposed to think Shaw is a dick; that was beaten to death the entire season. It just didn’t make sense in the context of the history of the ship.

 

[Tuskin38]

Well, he obviously knew about the LDS ship because there was a model of it in the Titan’s ready room. But yes, he seemed to want to have a link between his ship and the one mentioned in Nemesis despite that.

Oh I meant during pre-production, like the writing process is when he learned LDS already used the titan.

 

[Verteron]

Re the Titan / Titan-A situation, there is this background art by Dave Blass (Picard's production designer) that goes some way to explaining what went on:

[SOURCE]

The thought being that the Titan-A is largely a new hull, but some components may have been salvaged from Riker's Titan after it was withdrawn from service after irreparable damage. Perhaps the computer cores, warp core, various other smaller bits and pieces. It's a 'refit' in a sense but it is also a 'salvage'.

It does make some level of sense in-universe given Utopia Planitia yards were destroyed over Mars.

 

[Dukhat]

Re the Titan / Titan-A situation, there is this background art by Dave Blass (Picard's production designer) that goes some way to explaining what went on:

[SOURCE]

The thought being that the Titan-A is largely a new hull, but some components may have been salvaged from Riker's Titan after it was withdrawn from service after irreparable damage. Perhaps the computer cores, warp core, various other smaller bits and pieces. It's a 'refit' in a sense but it is also a 'salvage'.

It does make some level of sense in-universe given Utopia Planitia yards were destroyed over Mars.

Yes, Dave Blass has no idea what ‘refit’ means.

 

[Citiprime]

It does make some level of sense in-universe given Utopia Planitia yards were destroyed over Mars.

To me, one thing that never made sense about that entire part of the storyline from season 1 is that I can't see Starfleet not rebuilding Utopia Planitia in orbit or trying to fix the Martian atmosphere in the like 2 decades since the attack.

Even if you can't rebuild the structures on the surface, put a Spacedock or station in orbit to coordinate reconstruction of the shipyard.

The only reason I can think not to is a shift in policy where the people in charge said let's not since we're not gonna be producing starships like we used to because we want to rethink Starfleet's mission and priorities.

 

[The Wormhole]

I mean they didn't build a whole new Enterprise-G. They just changed the registry of the Titan in the end.

Although according to Matalas, they did build a whole new Titan B, so they must have some form of stable shipbuilding facilities out there somewhere.

 

[Verteron]

Yes, Dave Blass has no idea what ‘refit’ means.

Maybe so, but it's apparent that precious little of NCC-1701 was kept between her major overhauls, at least three of them, where her warp systems bridge module, nacelles and interior were changed, the first around 2255 (between The Cage and Will You Take My Hand?, the second between the end of Pike's command and the beginning of Kirk's in 2265, the third seen on screen in The Motion Picture in the mid 2270s).

How much of a ship do we need to keep before we declare it's no-longer the original ship? It seems to me that Starfleet subscribes to the ship of Theseus school of thought, so long as the dedication plaque stays, so does the name and registry.

 

[The Wormhole]

the first around 2255 (between The Cage and Will You Take My Hand?,

That's not really an "official" (meaning in-universe) refit given the Q&A Short Trek shows the Enterprise in its Disco/SNW configuration before The Cage.

How much of a ship do we need to keep before we declare it's no-longer the original ship? It seems to me that Starfleet subscribes to the ship of Theseus school of thought, so long as the dedication plaque stays, so does the name and registry.

But that's just it, in the case of the Titan, the registry did change, with the addition of the A being added to if. If it is indeed meant to be the same ship as the Luna class Titan, why didn't they keep the exact same registry?

 

[Citiprime]

But that's just it, in the case of the Titan, the registry did change, with the addition of the A being added to if. If it is indeed meant to be the same ship as the Luna class Titan, why didn't they keep the exact same registry?

Although, that is consistent with how DISCO handled the refit of Discovery.

The A suffix was added to the registry when it was refit in the 32nd century, instead of just keeping the same NCC-1031 number, even though at its core it still had significant elements of the original ship (i.e., the Spore Drive, the computer core with Zora, etc.).

 

[Dukhat]

Maybe so, but it's apparent that precious little of NCC-1701 was kept between her major overhauls, at least three of them, where her warp systems bridge module, nacelles and interior were changed, the first around 2255 (between The Cage and Will You Take My Hand?, the second between the end of Pike's command and the beginning of Kirk's in 2265, the third seen on screen in The Motion Picture in the mid 2270s).

How much of a ship do we need to keep before we declare it's no-longer the original ship? It seems to me that Starfleet subscribes to the ship of Theseus school of thought, so long as the dedication plaque stays, so does the name and registry.

Except none of that is the DSC/SNW producers’ intent. Their intent is that the ship always looked like how it looks in DSC/SNW. The only reason why the ship looks like the Cage version in the clip they used from TOS was because, well, it was a clip from TOS. It is a visual disconnect, not a refit.

Although, that is consistent with how DISCO handled the refit of Discovery.

The A suffix was added to the registry when it was refit in the 32nd century, instead of just keeping the same NCC-1031 number, even though at its core it still had significant elements of the original ship (i.e., the Spore Drive, the computer core with Zora, etc.).

That was different circumstances. They did that to hide the fact that it was the same ship.

 

[HotRod]

but it's apparent that precious little of NCC-1701 was kept between her major overhauls, at least three of them, where her warp systems bridge module, nacelles and interior were changed, the first around 2255 (between The Cage and Will You Take My Hand?, the second between the end of Pike's command and the beginning of Kirk's in 2265

No. The SNW Enterprise IS the Enterprise as it will appear in TOS, simply with a modern visual aesthetic. Star Trek is not a period piece. They've made that abundantly clear.

The A suffix was added to the registry when it was refit in the 32nd century, instead of just keeping the same NCC-1031 number

Wasn't that simply to keep up the ruze that the Discovery had been destroyed in the 23rd century? As far as the general public is concerned, the Discovery-A is an all new ship.


*Ninja'd by Dukhat.

 

[Citiprime]

Wasn't that simply to keep up the ruze that the Discovery had been destroyed in the 23rd century? As far as the general public is concerned, the Discovery-A is an all new ship..

That was different circumstances. They did that to hide the fact that it was the same ship.

I think that's mentioned in passing during the refit episode, but it really makes no sense and the worst disguise ever.

If they were trying to hide the fact it was the same ship, why not change the name and registry entirely?

 

[Shat Happens]

This is such an interesting discussion. I do not really know much about Star Trek after NEM (I did watch some but not many). I went to Memory Alpha to inform myself:

https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Titan_(disambiguation)?so=search

There's a DISAMBIGUATION PAGE about the Titan. Oh no