Is there a problem with Seven for young girls & women today?

[Spot261]

But you do?

A bit beside the point, though, when the whole thread is in the form of a direct query on how to think or feel. (Or then exactly on point there.)

Timo Saloniemi

Not really no, it was a statement about how three people already felt and an invitation to discuss how the portrayal does or doesn't sit well in both the show and the real world, including the reality of putting a human being in it.

Clearly in terms of cultural impact the catsuit has far outweighed the role of the person wearing it, else why is it so often the first association people make when she's mentioned.

It doesn't add to the character or message, it both detracts and distracts from the positive aspects.

 

[Timo]

I can grok that bit. It's just that the thread seems to have been doomed from the start, when the specific question to be answered is way too hot a topic for grown-ups, let alone the supposed target audience.

But interfering with how people help their own children face the world is the hottest topic of all. Perhaps not a matter to be discussed on fori dedicated to any other subject matter?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Mudd]

But you do?

In this instance, at least, I have not attempted to do so.

Your response is a non sequitur, devoid of rudimentary logic. Try again.

 

[Sakonna]

I can grok that bit. It's just that the thread seems to have been doomed from the start, when the specific question to be answered is way too hot a topic for grown-ups, let alone the supposed target audience.

Honest question: do you legitimately miss the fact that the only one not thoughtfully engaging with the question is you? (Well, maybe one other) If this is a doomed thread, the only thing needed so far to un-doom it would be to remove your posts.

 

[Qonundrum]

Its okay that your niece feels uncomfortable with this style of clothing, but you have your history of Seven's attire wrong and if I may be so bold your decision not to show her "scary" eps has prejudiced her opinion.

Jeri Ryan did indeed nearly faint from her costume, but it wasn't the cat suit.

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It was the Borg suit that constricted her carotid arteries too much in certain positions that caused her to faint.

Meeting Seven in the Borg costume would help your niece focus on her character and would explain certain aspects of her costume after the transformation like the metal on her skull, her arm and the obvious ribbing we see over her abdomen.

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The dermoplastic bandages help her in regenerating her tissue, and it helps to see that they are the same color of her first cat suit.

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Watching her evolve not over just the first few eps but throughout the season is probably why your wife can accept the character and ignore the catsuit.

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Obviously Kate was upset at the idea of anyone coming on board to boost her show's ratings, especially when the someone was so obviously presented in a sexualized manner and I understand that. I don't know what Avery Brooks thought when they brought Worf onto DS9, but I remember an article where the other men on the show laughed that TPTB decided their show needed more testosterone.

Why don't I mind the costume? Because the character they shoved into that costume was a bad ass woman who took no guff from anyone and who was always, ALWAYS projected as a capable intelligent woman.

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What's most important about this character's costume, is that her fellow crewmen/women still treated her with respect and when others didn't treat her thus she dealt with it decisively.

That is a lesson your niece might do well to learn.

Great clips and from great episodes!

Ironically, I felt the Janeway/7 double-act was VOY's greatest strength. Janeway was still the lead and then some, telling of Trek's greatest asset, that of explaining the human condition. The duo were better than Picard/Data in that regard. "Oh look it's a walking smartphone" versus "someone who was psychologically assaulted as a child and now has to reclaim and retroactively learn what was taken for granted by everyone else, in a timespan greater than one episode, and they doing the teaching have it harder because they know she is a person and not a mass of circuits." One needn't be a similar age or gender to relate to such conditions either. This makes VOY one of the strongest and boldest Trek incarnations to date.

Also, the EMH could reprogram his own coding to generate holographic hair too

 

[cooleddie74]

Seven's outfits were Rick Berman and Brannon Braga T&A. That said:

Jeri Ryan is a pretty good actress who was given some of the best material any Trek actress has ever been handed in a script and executed most of it superbly. Seven became of the great transcendental characters in all of Star Trek and rose above and beyond Jeri's good looks and attractive body. She became a three-dimensional human character striving to become more than the sum of her traumatic experiences at the hands of the Borg Collective.

Jeri overcame the catsuit. More fans need to overcome turning it into a reason to grandstand and tell other fans how to think.

 

[Kor]

Either everybody should have been in that kind of costume, showing a significant change in human notions of modesty over the next few centuries, or Seven should have just worn a Starfleet uniform variant (honorary noncom status?).

Kor

 

[Sakonna]

I won't deny that we need to think more deeply about decisions made in the presentation of women in media. However, we do end up coming to a no-win situation far too often. We know quite well the decisions made by Berman and Braga in the conceptualization of Seven of Nine and how she was styled. Yes, there was a seriously misogynist trope that they were following: the overly beautiful woman who needed a strong man to realize her sexuality. On the other hand, Ms. Ryan has said that she had not problem with how the character's costume sexualized her. What she had a problem with was the level of discomfort she endured to wear it. That's no different than the myriad of Star Trek characters who suffered through tortured clothing, extensive prosthetics, and masks to the point of forced calls every day. On the other hand, Ms. Ryan has said that she is proud of the character and the work she did on the series, and recommends them to both her children.

The trap is that we only consider how one group objectifies women, using them to tell women how they comport themselves. Is it really appropriate to say that the only reason women are sexualized in media is because men want them to be? Is that not limiting women's autonomy? Are not women who wear tight clothing in their daily lives expressing themselves?

This is an interesting analysis with many good points, but I think the one thing it doesn't take into account is how distinct Seven's look was in the larger context of Voyager.

This thread has had me thinking a lot about Enterprise. There is one respect in which Enterprise is superior to all other Trek's: it's the only one that gets objectification right. T'Pol is in a catsuit, but the men are also constantly shirtless or stripped down to their tightie bluesies or floating around naked in gratuitous shower scenes. I know many complain about the element on Enterprise, and there's certainly some "sex" scenes that misfire spectacularly, but overall I quite like that they had a clear idea (inject ridiculous prime-time-soap sexiness into Star Trek) and executed it in a way that was consistent with the expressed ethos of the show. I wouldn't want this for all of Trek, but trashy soap sex can be fun and I like that there's one Trek show that added that to their regular toolkit.

Voyager's objectionable decision was dialing Seven's sex appeal up to a thousand, while leaving the rest of the cast at absolute zero. Look at Paris, introduced as our sexy rogue pilot. If Jeri Ryan had put on a fraction of the weight RDM did during the show, she would have been fired in a heartbeat.

Though the interesting thing is, at the end of the day, the whole presentation does work for me. When I am watching the show, I like the costume. But only because of Jeri Ryan, who wills it to work with the force of her performance and the cleverness of her instincts. But on some level it'll always bug me that she had to be so inhibited. With the costume on one hand and the abusive work environment on the other, it's like hiring a ballet dancer, shackling two giant anvils to her feet, and then asking her to perform Swan Lake. It's thrilling to watch her actually nail the steps, but it's annoying they had to make it so hard for such suspect reasons.

 

[Kor]

... The doctor just put her in that suit and she just kept wearing it (and the high heels that came with it) ...

Yeah, in-universe, Seven's extremely tight, constricting clothing and stiletto high heels were the Doctor's idea of "balanc[ing] functionality and aesthetics in a pleasing enough manner." How is that functional for starship duty?

Kor

 

[DonIago]

No loose fabric to catch on sharp edges?

 

[UssGlenn]

I suppose we're supposed to think that any form of extra fabric would be "fashion" and thus an affront to Seven's notions of efficiency. Anytime they dressed Seven up she ended up in looser clothes so I guess there's an in-universe logic to it. Can't justify the heels though.

 

[Prax]

The outfit has to be tight to keep all her wires and batteries from falling out, but yeah, the heels are dumb.

 

[Sakonna]

The heels are backup weapons. Seven is just making sure she's prepared for a subspace dampening field or quantum ion cloud to deactivate her phaser -- she'll be able to stab her adversaries with one of her heels instead.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

This is an interesting analysis with many good points, but I think the one thing it doesn't take into account is how distinct Seven's look was in the larger context of Voyager.

That would be true … if we were merely engaging in criticism. The context of this thread is how an adult should respond to a girl's questions about Seven of Nine and, in the larger picture, how adults deal with representations of women's sexuality and how they might condition particular responses in children. I agree that Ryan's outfit was an outlier, but Belanna Torres was also softened and feminized over time, and many of her stories put her as a romantic lead. As for the others? Their sexuality was thrown in the trash heap with their personalities. That's just how Voyager evolved.

Which leads back to this question: is the message that we want to give a young girl that Seven of Nine was styled in order to appeal to men's sexual urges? As true as that conclusion is, it has the potential to deliver negative ideas not just about sexuality, but femininity in general. My own experiences as the father of a twelve year old boy won't match up with those of the girl in the OP. Nonetheless, I know I don't want him to see me judging women based on their looks. I don't want to imprint my ideas about beauty and sexuality on him. I don't want him to feel guilty for whatever feelings he has. I suspect the same should hold for the nine year old girl.

 

[JanewayRulz!]

I suppose we're supposed to think that any form of extra fabric would be "fashion" and thus an affront to Seven's notions of efficiency. Anytime they dressed Seven up she ended up in looser clothes so I guess there's an in-universe logic to it. Can't justify the heels though.

That scene in sickbay used to bug me so much (Aside: My fave Janeway look is at 1:14) because when Seven jumped off the biobed she looked directly into Janeway's eyes. Then one day I realized why she did that.

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The Borg do not wear high heels.

Kate Mulgrew's Captain, however, did wear 4 inch high heels so the 5'10 to 6'1" tall guys she commanded would fit in the same shot.

Wearing flats, would put Seven of Nine as much as an inch shorter than the Captain and that would detract from the "presence" of the exBorg. Rob Talpert said to make your hero seem bigger you had to have them fight bigger foes. Its one thing if Janeway towered over Seven, but to have her be smaller than Seven and still able to exert control would enhance Janeway's mystique. Seven's bragging about her Captain to the Hirogen that captured her reveals height (or lack thereof) doesn't negatively affect her opinion of Janeway.

SEVEN: You will find our captain a formidable opponent and our ship heavily armed.

Moving from heels to clothes, I have to admit something, although I really like Seven in a star fleet uniform...

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...there is something to say for our former Borg being forced to wear a singular costume, one that sets her part from the Star Fleet collective. Its like the oft repeated complaint from a mature woman who never had a chance to have her own identity/live in her own home. She went from being a daughter in her parent's home to being a wife in her married household to being the mother in law in her child's home and never had a chance to just "be".

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"Its what you are. Don't resist it."

 

[Sakonna]

Which leads back to this question: is the message that we want to give a young girl that Seven of Nine was styled in order to appeal to men's sexual urges? As true as that conclusion is, it has the potential to deliver negative ideas not just about sexuality, but femininity in general.

The key phrase I would highlight here is "as true as that conclusion is." If I could pull this back in for a minute:

Is it really appropriate to say that the only reason women are sexualized in media is because men want them to be? Is that not limiting women's autonomy? Are not women who wear tight clothing in their daily lives expressing themselves?

You're absolutely right, on the macro level. But in this specific case 1. the woman was sexualized because a man wanted her to be, 2. she did not have autonomy over that choice, and 3. it's not an example of a woman expressing herself in daily life. That's the truth of this specific situation. And it's the specific case the niece was having a reaction to, not society at large.

I would say when kids accurately perceive a disturbing truth, it's generally not a good idea to tell them they're wrong. They can sense the bullshit, they know they're being lied to, and they often imagine something even worse than the truth to fill in the blanks of what they don't understand. Ideally, you can affirm their truthful impression (in an age appropriate way) and then redirect back to the takeaway. "You're right, it is an impractical costume. Back when this show was made, they thought they'd get more viewers with a beautiful woman wearing this outfit. I don't really like the outfit either, but fortunately the character/actress is great, she's very smart/strong/powerful/etc. What do you think about that?"

I think the key to the whole thing is that the niece generated all these concerns on her own. If she hadn't said anything, no, you shouldn't take it upon yourself to introduce the seedy backstory of the catsuit. But when a kid accurately picks up on something negative, I don't think you're serving them well to insist "no, this is actually positive", when a way to acknowledge the negative and pivot to a positive is available.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

But when a kid accurately picks up on something negative, I don't think you're serving them well to insist "no, this is actually positive"

Which is not what I am suggesting.

 

[Spot261]

Voyager's objectionable decision was dialing Seven's sex appeal up to a thousand, while leaving the rest of the cast at absolute zero. Look at Paris, introduced as our sexy rogue pilot. If Jeri Ryan had put on a fraction of the weight RDM did during the show, she would have been fired in a heartbeat.

This does lead to an interesting question about the intended demographic, was the decision making based primarily on an identified target audience or the showrunners' preconceptions?

ENt came a decade later in a climate where perceptions of the sci fi fan base had changed significantly and shows had started being made with a broader appeal in mind, but VOY was really riding the cusp of that change. More and more women were openly identifying as sci fi fans but perceptions don't change overnight and it was still for the most part seen as being entertainment for socially awkward young males and Sevens' outfit seems to fit that thinking almost perfectly.

She isn't expressing sexuality or being sexual (in a way I'd recognise at least), she's being a professional forced to work in stereotyped overtly sexual clothes. That's not new or progressive, nor is it about expression. It's about consumption and has been a regressive part of the workplace environment since, well, as long as I can recall certainly, made especially jarring when we see Seven as being by definition a survivor of an ongoing intimate violation. It's not universally accepted but I do personally see the Borg as a legitimate rape and abuse allegory.

She was made the visual counterpart of a grid girl, a body being paraded about, not really sexy but rather sexualised and the two are IMHO quite different. One could argue the character given the most chance to actually express sexuality on screen was very possibly Janeway.

From that point of view not only does it seem backwards but the difference over ten years is telling. In my view ENT was also quite exploitative in many ways but it did seem to be more even handed in doing so. It's hard not to see Trip as being at least partially eye candy for instance, but even there he's usually an attractive man in uniform compared to an attractive woman in skin tight suit, a la T'Pol.

Move forward to DSC and there's actually rather more sex on screen and done more explicitly, but the mindset has changed again. The sex is about the character, who they are and how they are acting at a given time. It's done because it informs us something about the situation and the motivations of that person, not because it looks nice and a teenage boy might watch the show for gratification.

Burnham, Tyler, Cornwell, Lorca, Stamets, Culber, Georgiou and, yes, L'Rell are all given a chance to shine there but it's integral to what's happening, not merely there for the sake of seeing flesh. Even Mirror Georgiou and "Killy" are presented as being dressed and sexualised the way they are because it fits in with the nature of the character and the circumstances, the culture of deception, seduction and intrigue they have thrived in.

If anyone's still reading that means I'd view the girl in the OP viewing the show in a similar light to a girl seeing a scantily clad grid girl, or ring girl, or whatever. She's asked the questions and that's healthy, a lot better than not doing so and internalising a norm without question.

 

[NewHeavensNewEarth]

Sorry I'm late to the discussion here. Lots of excellent points have been made already, and I apologize if I repeat any that have already been shared.

Kate Mulgrew made no secret of her views that Jeri was brought in as eye candy to help slumping ratings, and Kate was extremely frustrated that she'd gone to such awesome lengths to portray Janeway as a strong, capable woman without needing to fall on sexual overtones to be taken seriously. She felt that Jeri was undermining everything that she'd worked towards in that regard, and it was awhile before the 2 actors were really able to work together comfortably on a personal level. (The cast was also upset over the axing of Jennifer's character, which didn't help.)

Obviously a character can be strong & capable while also projecting a different image than Janeway's, but part of my problem with this particular situation is the INABILITY for the show to put Seven in anything that was not skin-tight or low-cut 99.9% of the time. I have friends who wear all kinds of things but aren't afraid to wear jeans and a hoodie either. In the context of the OP, I would say that it's ok to try various styles, but never feel trapped in 1 style, and never feel subject to the expectation that others have of you. To be comfortable in one's own skin is key.

I wish they would've let Jeri wear other things from time to time, and in the process they would've helped to move past the perception that she was brought in as eye candy to boost ratings. Even if that perception was accurate in the beginning, it didn't have to be true for the entirety of the remainder of the series. And she could've been just as smart & empowered without missing a beat.