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Is there a GOOD reason for an alien invasion

Why would entire species/civilizations be behaving like this?

Game theory.

It's not really about paranoia. It's about the Prisoner's Dilemma and/or deterrence theory. Take your pick.

If you have a game system where multiple participants have first-strike weapons with a 100% success rate, the winner will be the first one to launch first strikes on all other participants. It doesn't matter if they're friends, or not.

That was why the most important thing in Cold War defense theory was always making absolutely sure that you possessed a second-strike capability and that your opponent knew about it. If you possessed such a capability and that fact was known, the other side would never think it could win with its first strike. Because game theory says that as soon as that ceases to be the case, you have to assume the other side will strike.

If a relativistic bomb is the perfect first-strike weapon, and you develop it, the best available game theory choice you have is to use it before anyone else develops it or uses it first.

All that being said, I think the problem would be solved by population dispersal on the space habitat model. Any species that does that effectively has created a second-strike capability - because space-based survivors have eternity to build relativistic retaliatory bombs of their own. That takes away the game theory imperative a potential foe would have to use their own weapons.
 
It always boils down to the problem of travellers who essentially live in the void, since this is what we're talking about. Space is so huge a billion of them could die before anything remotely tasty came along. This goes for any group of any size. The chances of Earth being found are very slim indeed. If they have the resources to live forever in space (although a bleaker existence I couldn't imagine) why take the risk of taking on an enormous population on their home ground?
 
Here's the problem with a generational trip.

Kids are not into the same shit their grandparents were.

Spend their whole lives in space, and then they're supposed to settle down on a mudball because old dead people thought it was a good idea?

Fuck that.
 
  1. THEIR SURVIVAL WILL BE MORE IMPORTANT THAN OUR SURVIVAL. If an alien species has to choose between them and us, they won't choose us. It is difficult to imagine a contrary case; species don't survive by being self-sacrificing.
  2. WIMPS DON'T BECOME TOP DOGS. No species makes it to the top by being passive. The species in charge of any given planet will be highly intelligent, alert, aggressive, and ruthless when necessary.
  3. THEY WILL ASSUME THAT THE FIRST TWO LAWS APPLY TO US.
There's a problem with this line of reasoning and it's mostly one of tone. My survival is more important to me than the survival of a waiter serving me drinks, and I've yet to stab any waiters in the throat.

Likewise, humans and wolves may both kill chickens, but humans and wolves also eat chickens. Because we're compatible enough that that's actually a healthy thing for us to do. Quite often it's our chief reason for killing the chicken to begin with.

If it's not really in the interest of an alien species to wipe us out or kill us it's less likely that'd be their course of action and as this thread's pointed out you do have to stretch a little for them to particularly care about what's going on in Earth.

That doesn't even touch on this assumption:
.

Presumably you don't kill the waiter because other humans acting as a group will see you as a threat and lock you away or kill you. And we also kill wolves, almost to extinction so that there would be an easier access to chickens.
 
^ That's what it all boils down to in the end...easier access to chickens.

This may not mean very much, but I just like the sound of that phrase. Easier access to chickens. :lol:
 
I think we need to better define the term "invasion". An alien preemptive attack on Earth, or a desire for our resources does not really need to be an invasion in the classic sense. You drop a few kinetic strikes on Earth(think asteroids of a decent size) wait a few years for the dust to settle, and come down and collect whatever resources you want.

There is no invasion, no ships or troops occupying a human population, nothing like we see in movies or TV.

No, the only reason to justify an alien military style invasion would be to collect the one thing found on Earth which is presumably unique, namely human beings.

The idea of collecting organs or slaves or whatever is sort of silly though. I think by far the best and least used motivation(in science fiction) for an alien invasion would be religious in nature. Something along the lines of our fictional aliens feeling that all sentient beings in the universe must acknowledge their deities.

Like the Necromongers in the Riddick Universe.

Actually, Star Trek presents a pretty good example of an intelligent species that might invade another in the Borg.

Also, we're kind of framing this in a way that suggests alien beings attacking us with the resources of an entire civilization behind them. The movie Signs sucked, but the movie suggested, to me, that it was a relatively small force of invaders, maybe just scavengers or thieves that roam around taking when they can. The invaders from Battle: LA didn't exactly look like they had the resources of a galaxy-spanning hyper-tech civilization, they could barely keep their junk ships together. Maybe they were related to the Prawns from District 9. ;)
 
Presumably you don't kill the waiter because other humans acting as a group will see you as a threat and lock you away or kill you.
No, actually, that's not it.

In fact if the only reason you don't kill everyone you know is fear you'll get caught, then you may be interested to know this is not a universal position.

And we also kill wolves, almost to extinction so that there would be an easier access to chickens.
Killed wolves and domesticated dogs. We tended to have reasons to do so, obviously, not least of which is we share the same planet. For aliens to be remotely interested in dealing with us or harming us they'd have to be interested in our world which, as observed, is pretty unlikely.
 
Curtailing them or encouraging them. Newton was a very religious man, for example, and also kind of a big deal as far as scientific progress goes.

Note that being very religious in your personal life is not necessarily the same thing than being a fundamentalist or a religious fanatic. The latter often includes the drive to impose your views on others or the society/world as a whole (since fundamentalism ultimately includes the implementation of strict religious rules into government policy). Doesn't apply to Newton or any other "religious scientist", as far as I know.



Plus, it only takes a small number of fundamentalists to gain power in order to drag the rest of the population into its beliefs and actions. Just look at Hitler, the Nazi party, and Germany.
Or for a more sci-fi example; look what happened to the Republic in Star Wars when one man with a thirst for ultimate power managed to take control of it. One minute you have a peaceful and democratic republic, next thing you've got an evil empire.

The Nazis weren't religious fundamentalists though. In fact, they were a very anti-religious movement for the most part. They could also be described as rather technophile, which sort of underlines my point.



Anyway, it would be an interesting though-experiment trying to design a fictional religion which is a) radically fundamentalist and b) technophile or "tech-progressive" at the same time. I guess you could try to turn everything upside down a bit: The quest for scientific knowledge becomes one of the main tenets of the faith, with critics and opponents of technology being persecuted. Imagine a world in which opponents of nuclear power or genetic engineering are executed as heretics.

There is only one main problem though: Religion often came before science, which is usually the main cause of conflict between the two. At the time when science offers emprirical evidence, religion has already provided us with explanations for centuries, which now comes in contradiction with the results of the new scientific research. As a result, fundamentalists are curtailing and persecuting science as way to maintain the old view of the world. Hence fundamentalists are inherently "anti-science" in most of the cases.

In order for a truly technophile fundamentalism to arise, it would have been a religion which came in existance after the rise of technology. Scientology springs to mind here. But even their teachings are not fully compatible with science, see their hostile view of psychology and psychiatry for example.
 
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But still, most fundamentalists, religious or not, are happy to use technology as a means to an end. The Nazis certainly didn't shy away from technological research and devlopment in an effort to win the war, technophile or not. What they would have done afterwards, had they won, is another matter. The point is, they were still willing to use technology as long as it advanced their interests.

Besides, like I said, it's an alien culture, and an alien religion. For all we know their religion may have developed with or around technology.
 
Besides, like I said, it's an alien culture, and an alien religion. For all we know their religion may have developed with or around technology.

For all we know humans could be the only society in the galaxy that has the capacity for religion.
 
Note that being very religious in your personal life is not necessarily the same thing than being a fundamentalist or a religious fanatic.
Obviously.

Newton was a religious fanatic, though, who took his unorthodox Christianity very seriously.

In order for a truly technophile fundamentalism to arise, it would have been a religion which came in existance after the rise of technology.

Not necessarily.

The conflict between religion and technology here seems a little predicated on Western religions anyway, but let's say the alien faith is there is a Cosmic Plan: Their race is the chosen one, and the third world of a distant star in the heavens is their anointed land. They have strict dietary requirements, copulative mores, and ink their thoraxes as a sign of faith. Those who have lived righteous lives are reincarnated in a more orderly universe; there is a succession of universes, each one more orderly and more in tune with the Cosmic Plan, that faithful can aspire to be in - or slip into universes with more disunion if unloyal.

What they do not have, however, is a Creation Myth, nor does their religion include explanations for the tangible, physical world. It's an alien religion, there's no need for it to follow the human compulsion to weaving stories about why there's a sun in the sky or where the rivers came from. What's the answer? The Cosmic Plan. Now ink your thorax.
 
We only have one precedent for a technological species. If ET is anything like us, he won't necessarily act rationally or even in a way that's in his own best interests.


This presupposes that they don't have 10s of thousands or even millions of years of evolution under their belt, OR that they haven't had technological-AI-biological singularities that change the very nature of how they think. Sorry, like most contemporary human thinking this opinion lacks foresight.

RAMA
 
Extermination is more likely than extinction. Taken from the Aliens section of
http://www.projectrho.com/rocket/

From The Killing Star by Charles Pellegrino and George Zebrowski (you really should read this book):
The great silence (i.e., absence of SETI signals from alien civilizations) is perhaps the strongest indicator of all that high relativistic velocities are attainable and that everybody out there knows it.
The sobering truth is that relativistic civilizations are a potential nightmare to anyone living within range of them. The problem is that objects traveling at an appreciable fraction of light speed are never where you see them when you see them (i.e., light-speed lag). Relativistic rockets, if their owners turn out to be less than benevolent, are both totally unstoppable and totally destructive. A starship weighing in at 1,500 tons (approximately the weight of a fully fueled space shuttle sitting on the launchpad) impacting an earthlike planet at "only" 30 percent of lightspeed will release 1.5 million megatons of energy -- an explosive force equivalent to 150 times today's global nuclear arsenal... (ed note: this means the freaking thing has about nine hundred mega-Ricks of damage!)
I'm not going to talk about ideas. I'm going to talk about reality. It will probably not be good for us ever to build and fire up an antimatter engine. According to Powell, given the proper detecting devices, a Valkyrie engine burn could be seen out to a radius of several light-years and may draw us into a game we'd rather not play, a game in which, if we appear to be even the vaguest threat to another civilization and if the resources are available to eliminate us, then it is logical to do so.
The game plan is, in its simplest terms, the relativistic inverse to the golden rule: "Do unto the other fellow as he would do unto you and do it first."...
When we put our heads together and tried to list everything we could say with certainty about other civilizations, without having actually met them, all that we knew boiled down to three simple laws of alien behavior:

  1. THEIR SURVIVAL WILL BE MORE IMPORTANT THAN OUR SURVIVAL. If an alien species has to choose between them and us, they won't choose us. It is difficult to imagine a contrary case; species don't survive by being self-sacrificing.
  2. WIMPS DON'T BECOME TOP DOGS. No species makes it to the top by being passive. The species in charge of any given planet will be highly intelligent, alert, aggressive, and ruthless when necessary.
  3. THEY WILL ASSUME THAT THE FIRST TWO LAWS APPLY TO US.
...
Your thinking still seems a bit narrow. Consider several broadening ideas:

  1. Sure, relativistic bombs are powerful because the antagonist has already invested huge energies in them that can be released quickly, and they're hard to hit. But they are costly investments and necessarily reduce other activities the species could explore. For example:
  2. Dispersal of the species into many small, hard-to-see targets, such as asteroids, buried civilizations, cometary nuclei, various space habitats. These are hard to wipe out.
  3. But wait -- while relativistic bombs are readily visible to us in foresight, they hardly represent the end point in foreseeable technology. What will humans of, say, two centuries hence think of as the "obvious" lethal effect? Five centuries? A hundred? Personally I'd pick some rampaging self-reproducing thingy (mechanical or organic), then sneak it into all the biospheres I wanted to destroy. My point here is that no particular physical effect -- with its pluses, minuses, and trade-offs -- is likely to dominate the thinking of the galaxy.
  4. So what might really aged civilizations do? Disperse, of course, and also not attack new arrivals in the galaxy, for fear that they might not get them all. Why? Because revenge is probably selected for in surviving species, and anybody truly looking out for long-term interests will not want to leave a youthful species with a grudge, sneaking around behind its back...
I agree with most parts of points 2, 3, and 4. As for point 1, it is cheaper than you think. You mention self-replicating machines in point 3, and while it is true that relativistic rockets require planetary power supplies, it is also true that we can power the whole Earth with a field of solar cells adding up to barely more than 200-by-200 kilometers, drawn out into a narrow band around the Moon's equator. Self-replicating robots could accomplish this task with only the cost of developing the first twenty or thirty machines. And once we're powering the Earth practically free of charge, why not let the robots keep building panels on the Lunar far side? Add a few self-replicating linear accelerator-building factories, and plug the accelerators into the panels, and you could produce enough anti-hydrogen to launch a starship every year. But why stop at the Moon? Have you looked at Mercury lately? ...
Dr. Wells has obviously bought into the view of a friendly galaxy. This view is based upon the argument that unless we humans conquer our self-destructive warlike tendencies, we will wipe out our species and no longer be a threat to extrasolar civilizations. All well and good up to this point.
But then these optimists make the jump: If we are wise enough to survive and not wipe ourselves out, we will be peaceful -- so peaceful that we will not wipe anybody else out, and as we are below on Earth, so other people will be above.
This is a non sequitur, because there is no guarantee that one follows the other, and for a very important reason: "They" are not part of our species.
Before we proceed any further, try the following thought experiment: watch the films Platoon and Aliens together and ask yourself if the plot lines don't quickly blur and become indistinguishable. You'll recall that in Vietnam, American troops were taught to regard the enemy as "Charlie" or "Gook," dehumanizing words that made "them" easier to kill. In like manner, the British, Spanish, and French conquests of the discovery period were made easier by declaring dark- or red- or yellow-skinned people as something less than human, as a godless, faceless "them," as literally another species.
Presumably there is some sort of inhibition against killing another member of our own species, because we have to work to overcome it...
But the rules do not apply to other species. Both humans and wolves lack inhibitions against killing chickens.
Humans kill other species all the time, even those with which we share the common bond of high intelligence. As you read this, hundreds of dolphins are being killed by tuna fishermen and drift netters. The killing goes on and on, and dolphins are not even a threat to us.
As near as we can tell, there is no inhibition against killing another species simply because it displays a high intelligence. So, as much as we love him, Carl Sagan's theory that if a species makes it to the top and does not blow itself apart, then it will be nice to other intelligent species is probably wrong. Once you admit interstellar species will not necessarily be nice to one another simply by virtue of having survived, then you open up this whole nightmare of relativistic civilizations exterminating one another.
It's an entirely new situation, emerging from the physical possibilities that will face any species that can overcome the natural interstellar quarantine of its solar system. The choices seem unforgiving, and the mind struggles to imagine circumstances under which an interstellar species might make contact without triggering the realization that it can't afford to be proven wrong in its fears.
Got that? We can't afford to wait to be proven wrong.
They won't come to get our resources or our knowledge or our women or even because they're just mean and want power over us. They'll come to destroy us to insure their survival, even if we're no apparent threat, because species death is just too much to risk, however remote the risk...
The most humbling feature of the relativistic bomb is that even if you happen to see it coming, its exact motion and position can never be determined; and given a technology even a hundred orders of magnitude above our own, you cannot hope to intercept one of these weapons. It often happens, in these discussions, that an expression from the old west arises: "God made some men bigger and stronger than others, but Mr. Colt made all men equal." Variations on Mr. Colt's weapon are still popular today, even in a society that possesses hydrogen bombs. Similarly, no matter how advanced civilizations grow, the relativistic bomb is not likely to go away...
We ask that you try just one more thought experiment. Imagine yourself taking a stroll through Manhattan, somewhere north of 68th street, deep inside Central Park, late at night. It would be nice to meet someone friendly, but you know that the park is dangerous at night. That's when the monsters come out. There's always a strong undercurrent of drug dealings, muggings, and occasional homicides.
It is not easy to distinguish the good guys from the bad guys. They dress alike, and the weapons are concealed. The only difference is intent, and you can't read minds.
Stay in the dark long enough and you may hear an occasional distance shriek or blunder across a body.
How do you survive the night? The last thing you want to do is shout, "I'm here!" The next to last thing you want to do is reply to someone who shouts, "I'm a friend!"
What you would like to do is find a policeman, or get out of the park. But you don't want to make noise or move towards a light where you might be spotted, and it is difficult to find either a policeman or your way out without making yourself known. Your safest option is to hunker down and wait for daylight, then safely walk out.
There are, of course, a few obvious differences between Central Park and the universe.
There is no policeman.
There is no way out.
And the night never ends.


I like David Brin's idea about why aliens haven't contacted us...there is a great band of "Ash" around us, that alien species who didn't follow rules of Galactic Society laid waste to many star systems. We have to wait till we can get a little further out. :techman: In reality, space is big, really big...

As for the suppositions in the article...well "top dogs" can be successful but so is cooperation, the "survival of the fittest" is a misnomer..its survival of the most adaptable...who is to say advanced aliens couldn't adapt or help us a adapt? I know...I AM skeptical of less advanced races mingling with those who are unimaginably advanced as starfarers, but nevertheless, a species more advanced than us may have some methods we simply can't fathom, ie "Contact", "2001" "2010".

Ultimately, the most likely extinction scenerio--as I have pointed out--is not a malicious evolutionary process of some advanced aliens, it would probably be machines who are indifferent to us. Raw material need is unlikely, "space" is unlikely, and I highly doubt they need this insignificant planet on the outer edges of a galaxy with rich energy sources far closer to the center of it than the here.

RAMA
 
But still, most fundamentalists, religious or not, are happy to use technology as a means to an end.

The question was not so much one of "willing to use", but of "able to invent" in the surroundings of a fundamentalist culture...



The Nazis certainly didn't shy away from technological research and devlopment in an effort to win the war, technophile or not. What they would have done afterwards, had they won, is another matter. The point is, they were still willing to use technology as long as it advanced their interests.

Again, the Nazis were neither particularly religious nor were they religious fundamentalists (although they surely used religion for propagandistic purposes). So I fail to see the relevance of the comparison. Like I said, they were more of an anti-religion/pro-technology movement anyway.



Note that being very religious in your personal life is not necessarily the same thing than being a fundamentalist or a religious fanatic.
Obviously.

Newton was a religious fanatic, though, who took his unorthodox Christianity very seriously.

Well, it seems we disagree on the definition of the term "fanatic". Doesn't really matter though. My point was that Newton didn't advocate for a fundamentalist theocracy which forces his own religious views on everybody else.
 
I have a few questions regarding Battle: LA. It is supposedly set 70 years after a failed invasion. Who invaded whom? Did we invade them or did they invade us?

If the former, why did they wait 70 years to try and kick our butts in retaliation?

If the latter, why didn't we reverse engineer their technology and kick their butts or try to make friends with them?
 
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