Is the USS Vengeance more powerful than the Enterprise E?

[anh165]

But some technological progression happens. The Mirror Universe, the NX-class are practically warships. The Uss Defiant (Constitution class) from the Prime universe, Ahhinilated every warship that opposed it. And the Defiant was an explorer, not centered on battle.

And that's what the story writers wanted to happen. Let's throw in a TOS ship back in time/another reality and see it tussle.

And in STiD, they wanted the Vengeance to be outright superior to anything the Federation had at the time, so much so it would put NuKirk into a situation where he felt powerless, one of the main themes of STiD is that Kirk wasnt ready for the chair, the Vengeance is another story device to demonstrate that.

The JJ era ships clearly look superior to the TOS counterparts, then throw in Khan's contributions, his intelligence levels and ability to learn and solve problems beyond a normal intelligent human could, then backed by a mandate to build a no compromise battle ship, there is a convincing case for the Vengeance to be that advanced and combat effective in 2259.

 

[R. Star]

And in STiD, they wanted the Vengeance to be outright superior to anything the Federation had at the time, so much so it would put NuKirk into a situation where he felt powerless, one of the main themes of STiD is that Kirk wasnt ready for the chair, the Vengeance is another story device to demonstrate that.

The JJ era ships clearly look superior to the TOS counterparts, then throw in Khan's contributions, his intelligence levels and ability to learn and solve problems beyond a normal intelligent human could, then backed by a mandate to build a no compromise battle ship, there is a convincing case for the Vengeance to be that advanced and combat effective in 2259.

"At the time" would sum up rather well how it would compare against the E-E. As for how well it stacks up against other Federation ships, the Enterprise is supposed to be the high bar by implication of being the "newest flagship" so... take that as you will. The JJ era ships are certainly all bigger than their counterparts.... but that doesn't mean better necessarily.

I do think you're wrong about the Khan being so super smart that he contributed to it. Take say.... Napoleon and move him ahead to World War 2 and drop him there... he's not going to be that successful... there were SO many new military concepts by that time, air power, armor, logistics were not only completely different but played a different role, military doctrine had changed. Everything he was a genius at would've been outdated. Not to mention that being an effective political/military leader as Khan seemed to have been.... has absolutely nothing to do with military design past or future. Bringing in Bonaparte to design a new tank in that scenario I laid out would be silly at best no matter how smart he is.

 

[drt]

I never got the sense that nuKhan contributed to the technology per se, but more that his "savagery" allowed him to think of concepts and tactics that the more pacifistic 23rd century humans would never even consider.


Back to the topic of the thread... the different iterations of Trek have always been inconsistent. Based on on-screen evidence, the original TOS Enterprise seems substantially more powerful than the ships from the TNG-era or JJ-era. It only took a couple of phaser shots to kill everyone on Excalibur in "The Ultimate Computer" or completely obliterate a Klingon cruiser in "Day of the Dove".

 

[jpv2000]

Back to the topic of the thread... the different iterations of Trek have always been inconsistent. Based on on-screen evidence, the original TOS Enterprise seems substantially more powerful than the ships from the TNG-era or JJ-era. It only took a couple of phaser shots to kill everyone on Excalibur in "The Ultimate Computer" or completely obliterate a Klingon cruiser in "Day of the Dove".

I've often thought this as well. I first noticed it in TWOK (Weapons were not used on other ships in TMP). Phasers and Photon Torpedoes seemed super weak when compared to TOS levels. Even against unshielded ships.

I've discussed this on other forums and others pointed out to me that it probably wasn't that the weapons were weaker, but the ships, shields, SIF and the hulls were much stronger on the newer ships and could take more punishment. I like this explanation much better and it makes more sense logically.

 

[Kemaiku]

The Enterprise-A got pounded by a volley of photon torpedoes from a Bird of Prey trying to destroy her an kill everyone onboard. It survived almost completely intact and only retired because the script called for it.

Oddly enough, Excelsior on full shields, took one hit and was sent spinning slightly and felt far more impact, because she wasn't the Enterprise clearly.

The 1701 refit took a direct photon hit to the saucer section early in TWoK, it messed up their computer systems, shot a few sparks but no mark was left on the hull, their shields were right down.

In the Nu-verse, an older style ship slightly newer than the Kelvin could take out unshielded D-7's with one photon each, no matter where it hit.

At 6%, the Nu-Prises's shields were not stopping the torpedoes from ripping chuncks out of her thickest plated areas, opening up several decks at a time.

Obviously, photon strength is more consistant with TOS, where they were treated as last resort WMD's.

 

[drt]

In TWOK the torpedo left a big burn mark on the underside if the saucer near the dorsal.


But I agree with you, from that point on (rest of the TOS movies and TNG/DS9/VOY) torpedos seemed to cause less damage than phasers half the time.

 

[Kemaiku]

In TWOK the torpedo left a big burn mark on the underside if the saucer near the dorsal.


But I agree with you, from that point on (rest of the TOS movies and TNG/DS9/VOY) torpedos seemed to cause less damage than phasers half the time.

Yet oddly enough, it impacted the upper saucer nearer the pennant.

 

[dudley]

To me, the USS Vengeance is another Scimitar. It's just a silly ship with four thousand torpedo launchers, ninety-nine shield layers, and a megablaster gun that can blow up God and God's God.

 

[Mycroft Maxwell]

^ I flipped my chair laughing at this one. I couldn't say that better myself.

 

[Sans]

To me, the USS Vengeance is another Scimitar. It's just a silly ship with four thousand torpedo launchers, ninety-nine shield layers, and a megablaster gun that can blow up God and God's God.

^ I flipped my chair laughing at this one. I couldn't say that better myself.

The Mary Sue of ships?

 

[F. King Daniel]

Perhaps, but that USS Mary Sue (designed by Khan Noonien Singh, no less - surely the starship equivalent of "secret daughter of character X") would kick the E-E's ass. Seriously, it's got tech way in advance of anything else.

Computers: One man can fly it even after extreme damage. That's way in advance of the Enterprise's rickety automation in STIII (one hit knocked it out) and is seemingly at least on par with Voyager at the very end of "Year of Hell", a ship from a century ahead.

Transporters: Can teleport at least 72 targets at once, something we've only ever seen the likes of in the early 25th century future of "All Good Things"

Warp drive: 3x faster than the Enterprise. That's, like, warp 24 or something batshit insane like that. And the Enterprise made it to Kronos and back in a day! It'll take a leisurely 18 seconds to fly to the Gamma Quadrant and kick the Dominion's ass all by itself.

Warp core: It crashed into a city and the core didn't breach. The Enterprise-D's core breached at least once per season.

Size: Jesus Christ, it's 1450 meters from end to end. It gives The Doomsday Machine size envy. That's about the size of Deep Space Nine. It probably has Defiant's for shuttlecraft.


God's god AND the Enterprise-E would be space toast.

 

[Maurice]

In TWOK the torpedo left a big burn mark on the underside if the saucer near the dorsal.


But I agree with you, from that point on (rest of the TOS movies and TNG/DS9/VOY) torpedos seemed to cause less damage than phasers half the time.

Yet oddly enough, it impacted the upper saucer nearer the pennant.

Based on what? The Reliant was circling around the Enterprise when it fired the torpedo (shortly thereafter we see it moving around in front of the E again). We only saw it on the viewscreen so it's not clear exactly where it was in relation to the hero ship when it fired.

Size: Jesus Christ, it's 1450 meters from end to end. It gives The Doomsday Machine size envy.

Nah, I once scaled the DDM against the Enterprise and it's like 4,060 meters (13,300 feet) long.

 

[drt]

Here's an image that shows the scorch mark from Reliant's torpedo on the saucer.

http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/twokhd/twokhd0504.jpg

(Thanks to Bob C for posting it in another thread so I didn't have to rummage for it)

 

[Keith1701]

I'd like to think the E would kick it's ass personally, it's 100 years more advanced

I would like to think the same.

 

[Lance]

Vengeance certainly looks bigger than the 1701-E -- and owing to scaling problems with the NuEnterprise in the 2009 movie, it probably is bigger than the 1701-E -- but yes, I agree. In any correct world, alternate universe or no alternate universe, the 1701-E is still the more powerful of the two ships. Or at least, it should be.

Marcus pimped the Vengeance as a kick-ass battleship, armed to the teeth, top secret tech, etc. But ultimately it's still a 23rd century ship, and it probably operates on systems that are antiquated by Picard's time, regardless of whether it's some kind of pocket splinter universe or not.

 

[T'Girl]

Computers: One man can fly it even after extreme damage.

Hey, remember when everyone on the Enterprise Dee got really sick and Data was going to pilot the ship to the Neutral Zone all by his lonesome?

And remember when Janeway was the only one left alive on the extreme damaged Voyager, and she rammed her ship into that alien timeship?

And remember when Kirk was (at least planning) to take the beat up Enterprise all by himself and return the unconscious Spock to the Genesis Planet?

And remember when just two holograms piloted the Prometheus in combat? (okay that was two)

And remember when George Kirk rammed the Iowa (whatever) into the Narada by himself?

Warp core: It crashed into a city and the core didn't breach. The Enterprise-D's core breached at least once per season.

The Voyager crash (really hard) on the surface of Ice Planet Zebra, and the warp core managed not to breach as well.

 

[JarodRussell]

Was the Vengeance really that much more powerful than the Abramsprise? She attacked the Abramsprise with her pants down. From behind. And pounded her. Repeatedly. Before she even knew what happened.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Vengeance certainly looks bigger than the 1701-E -- and owing to scaling problems with the NuEnterprise in the 2009 movie, it probably is bigger than the 1701-E

Not a problem, a choice made by those in charge to make it bigger.
Enterprise-E: 685m
Enterprise 1701 (AU): 725m
Vengeance: 1460m

Computers: One man can fly it even after extreme damage.

Hey, remember when everyone on the Enterprise Dee got really sick and Data was going to pilot the ship to the Neutral Zone all by his lonesome?

Data isn't just any crewman. We've seen how much faster he can operate the controls than the usual humanoid.

And remember when Janeway was the only one left alive on the extreme damaged Voyager, and she rammed her ship into that alien timeship?

Yes, I mentioned it in my post.

And remember when Kirk was (at least planning) to take the beat up Enterprise all by himself and return the unconscious Spock to the Genesis Planet?

We all know how that worked out, even with five helpers including the best engineer in the fleet.

And remember when just two holograms piloted the Prometheus in combat? (okay that was two)

Indeed - in the ship that's probably closest in function and purpose to the Vengeance in the Prime Universe (also designed for combat and a minimal crew)... and is newer and more advanced than the Enterprise-E.

And remember when George Kirk rammed the Iowa (whatever) into the Narada by himself?

He flew it alone for 12 minutes and did two things. I doubt he'd have fared any better longer-term than the Voyager senior staff at the start of "Year of Hell" part 2.

Warp core: It crashed into a city and the core didn't breach. The Enterprise-D's core breached at least once per season.

The Voyager crash (really hard) on the surface of Ice Planet Zebra, and the warp core managed not to breach as well.

True, I'd forgotten about that one.

 

[Mycroft Maxwell]

Bad Robots are dumb@$$es. They are little kids that want to uber everything. "Well my ship has 999,999 infinity super duper mega quantum torpedoes that can destroy God, God's God, God's God's God, and God's God's God's God." Yeah, Bad robot is full of immature power envy fanboys. TRUTH: Enterprise E would fraggin pwn the Vengence with her shields down.

 

[anh165]

Bad Robots are dumb@$$es. They are little kids that want to uber everything. "Well my ship has 999,999 infinity super duper mega quantum torpedoes that can destroy God, God's God, God's God's God, and God's God's God's God." Yeah, Bad robot is full of immature power envy fanboys. TRUTH: Enterprise E would fraggin pwn the Vengence with her shields down.

Firstly, the Vengeance doesn't have quantum torpedoes, it has only on screen demonstrated phasers which clearly deal real damage in a way never seen in any Federation ship before.

Secondly, the Enterprise E with her shields down will be just as fragile as the Narada is, and you can see what the JJ-Prise did to that.