Is the Prime Directive a bad idea, even in concept?

[Timo]

And if them going to the bathroom were in any way relevant to the argument, I'd point out that we have no proof of them doing so. In this argument, it's relevant that there is no proof of Picard being guilty or accused of PD violations, and any attempt at insinuating such would be met in court with an objection, sustaining of this objection, and a severe reprimand to the party making the insinuation. Beyond the demands of elementary logic, hurtful claims enjoy the special status of needing the proof up front or the claimant is automatically discredited and placed at a subsequent disadvantage for any future claims.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[BillJ]

And if them going to the bathroom were in any way relevant to the argument, I'd point out that we have no proof of them doing so. In this argument, it's relevant that there is no proof of Picard being guilty or accused of PD violations, and any attempt at insinuating such would be met in court with an objection, sustaining of this objection, and a severe reprimand to the party making the insinuation. Beyond the demands of elementary logic, hurtful claims enjoy the special status of needing the proof up front or the claimant is automatically discredited and placed at a subsequent disadvantage for any future claims.

Timo Saloniemi

Remember, I never said he was reprimanded. I said we simply didn't know.

 

[CoveTom]

In this argument, it's relevant that there is no proof of Picard being guilty or accused of PD violations, and any attempt at insinuating such would be met in court with an objection, sustaining of this objection, and a severe reprimand to the party making the insinuation.

Well, he was accused, by a Starfleet admiral, in a formal hearing, of having violated the Prime Directive nine times and neither he nor the opposing counsel, in this case Riker, objected. So there's that.

 

[Gary7]

What would be the reprimand for a PD violation? I would expect it to be something like temporary suspension of command where a captain is concerned. So, we'd see an episode with Riker in charge and Picard "away on Starfleet business". While we did have a couple of those, the business was nothing to do with a reprimand.

SATIE: Would it surprise you to learn that you have violated the Prime Directive a total of nine times since you took command of the Enterprise? I must say, Captain, it surprised the hell out of me.
PICARD: My reports to Starfleet document the circumstances in each of those instances
SATIE: Yes, we're looking into those reports, Captain, very closely into those reports, after which I'm sure we'll have more questions for you about your so-called commitment to Starfleet's Prime Directive.

So, he documented the circumstances in his reports. He did not say "and I was summarily excused in each case," but the tone of his delivery suggests this. Satie did not follow up with "and you were formally reprimanded in each case," something I'm sure she would have said had he been.

 

[CoveTom]

Perhaps he didn't receive a formal reprimand, but more of an informal "Hey, Jean-Luc, we know you had good intentions and we love ya, but knock it off with skirting the PD, or we're gonna be backed into a corner and have to come down on you publicly." Such conversations, done on the QT, are not unheard of.

 

[T'Girl]

What would be the reprimand for a PD violation?

I've considered the possibility that the reason that Data stayed a Lieutenant Commander as long as he did, was because of the Pen Pal incident. He had a serious black mark on his record.

Compare Geordi LaForge's rise through the ranks, to Data's. Data stalled at Lieutenant Commander.

 

[Nightdiamond]

What would be the reprimand for a PD violation?

I've considered the possibility that the reason that Data stayed a Lieutenant Commander as long as he did, was because of the Pen Pal incident. He had a serious black mark on his record.

Compare Geordi LaForge's rise through the ranks, to Data's. Data stalled at Lieutenant Commander.

That's true about Data, apparently he's been held down for a long time, but Cmder Riker knowingly participated in an illegal experiment, and kept it covered up, as an ensign- he still got offered a command of his own even after everyone found out.

Captain Kirk reputation was even worse- a known Prime Directive offender and became admiral pretty quick.

Sooner or later someone, somewhere, is going to have to break the Prime Directive.

I hope Starfleet really didn't expect Picard to turn Wesley over to the Edo to be executed-for simply falling over a 'keep off the grass' sign.

 

[T'Girl]

... but Cmder Riker knowingly participated in an illegal experiment, and kept it covered up, as an ensign ...

I don't know just how much Ensign Riker was a "participant." He was present on the ship at the time. And his keeping quiet all those years might have been because (I can't remember) the phasing experiment mission was subsequently classified.

I hope Starfleet really didn't expect Picard to turn Wesley over to the Edo to be executed-for simply falling over a 'keep off the grass' sign.

I though the episode would have been better if Wesley had committed a truly serious action on the Edo world, accidentally killed someone perhaps. And then still have Picard pull him off the planet, against the local "justice."

Picard: ... we do now have a law I must obey. And part of it says I must protect my people from harm.

 

[Ship's Computer]

But then given there is supposed to be a Prime Directive there are many examples of this being abused or just plain ignored as far as ANY Star Trek series goes. Riker (for example) can't stop sleeping with any female of any species who smiles in his direction. Captain Kirk could also be seen as being just as guilty of that.

As for an argument for or against contacting any pre-warp civilisation: It would not end in any pretty way. The more advanced civilisation has (historically) always caused the exiction or near extinction of the lesser advanced race. Take our religious ideology for example: "and God made man is His image". Imagine the consequences of an "advanced" civilization telling us something different.

 

[Timo]

Cmder Riker knowingly participated in an illegal experiment, and kept it covered up

It was illegal, but it was still to Starfleet's liking. There might have been formal pressures to punish Riker, but in practice it might be that the incident boosted his career, and hindered Picard's.

Data's career did not really stall after "Pen Pals" - it had always been crawling with the parking brake engaged. We don't know if this was due to racist doubts about the wisdom of giving an android high rank, due to lack of interest in promotion on Data's part, or simply because Data and everybody else believed that it would be a good idea to start out slow because any century now, Starfleet would run out of ranks to give. That is, if Data made Grand Admiral at one hundred and seventy already, what rank would be left to him at two hundred and twenty?

Captain Kirk reputation was even worse- a known Prime Directive offender and became admiral pretty quick.

As far as we can tell, Kirk never broke the PD. He did a lot of things that might amount to such, but nobody ever said onscreen that they did. Either he was acquitted, or then he kept mum about the specifics and was never found out. There are plenty of hints that he would have been able to do the latter: apparently Starfleet never found out about Khan, for example, and most of the Captain's Logs appeared to have been dictated some time after the actual events, perhaps with creative editing being possible even later on.

Timo Saloniemi