• Welcome! The TrekBBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans.
    If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Is the Movie Adaption Out Yet

I have to say, I'm disappointed that this adaptation didn't do any work to legitimize Kirk being given command of the Enterprise at the end. I actually don't think that in the movie it matters at all; they're treating Trek far more as a myth to be retold than as a sci-fi universe that has to be 100% consistent. But in a novelization, I'd think one would have the space to make an attempt at justifying some of the movie's more flagrant stretching of credibility.

I do remain curious how a cadet, however awesome, would be given command of the Federation flagship. Even if he had been promoted to Captain in some way during the crisis that had to stick, I still would expect them not to give him the Enterprise.

Christopher, William, other authors - can you think of a way to justify that? If you were to write a book taking place after this, would you just ignore it, or make an attempt to explain how something like that had occurred?
As you say, this comes across as a myth being retold, like the kid pulling the stone from the sword, and thus being granted supreme executive power over an entire nation and its peoples. Trying to build a realistic scenario around it? Well, let's just say that I want a signed contract before devoting too much creative energy to that task.
 
Bought and downloaded the unabridged audiobook from audible.com for the drive home! Woo Hoo! I can hardly wait!
 
Last edited:
I have to say, I'm disappointed that this adaptation didn't do any work to legitimize Kirk being given command of the Enterprise at the end. I actually don't think that in the movie it matters at all; they're treating Trek far more as a myth to be retold than as a sci-fi universe that has to be 100% consistent. But in a novelization, I'd think one would have the space to make an attempt at justifying some of the movie's more flagrant stretching of credibility.

I do remain curious how a cadet, however awesome, would be given command of the Federation flagship. Even if he had been promoted to Captain in some way during the crisis that had to stick, I still would expect them not to give him the Enterprise.

Christopher, William, other authors - can you think of a way to justify that? If you were to write a book taking place after this, would you just ignore it, or make an attempt to explain how something like that had occurred?
As you say, this comes across as a myth being retold, like the kid pulling the stone from the sword, and thus being granted supreme executive power over an entire nation and its peoples. Trying to build a realistic scenario around it? Well, let's just say that I want a signed contract before devoting too much creative energy to that task.

I mean, I think the movie still made clear that Kirk got this because of his intelligence, intuitive command abilities, and drive; I actually don't think this felt like the Star Wars destiny-more-important-than-merit thing that I don't find particularly appealing. Like the sword in the stone example you used.

I just think the results of that demonstration of merit are a bit outside what one would normally expect. I don't think it'd be impossible to justify, and I think spending a lot of time justifying it in the movie would've been redundant since it was about Kirk's journey. (HE clearly showed to himself he could lead, so he was a leader. Circumstances unimportant.)

Like I said, seems like a novelization would've been the place for that.
 
And I still say that if the dialogue or imagery indicates something that makes no logical sense, it's better to reinterpret it in a way that does rather than be slavishly literal.

Nothing about that statement seems overly dramatic or off kilter to you? Are you really saying that if you don't understand something you see, then you just deny it and imagine something different happened?

More power to you, but there's nothing indicating anything other than what we are plainly being shown, whatever speculation you have is simply a fanboy hand wave.

There's nothing in ST:TMP indicating that the corridor in front of the engine room is anything other than what it appears, but if you compare it to the plans for the ship, that corridor runs several times farther forward than can physically fit inside the ship. The rec room set can't physically fit inside the saucer either. Then there's the TOS shuttlecraft whose roof is substantially higher inside than outside, and the Delta Flyer which is considerably more spacious inside than outside. So either we assume they have dimensionally transcendental Time Lord technology in Starfleet, or we dismiss the explicit visual evidence and assume it's misleading.

Or what about Flint's mansion looking exactly like the fortress on Rigel VII right down to the landscape and skyscape, or the visible wires controlling the Sylvia and Korob puppets in "Catspaw," or dozens of alien races in TNG using exactly the same shuttlecraft interior or the same blinky-light equipment rented from Modern Props, or the Romulan holoship in ENT being essentially the same design as the "chaotic space" aliens' ship from VGR: "The Fight?" Or what about the uncanny resemblance between Brunt, Weyoun, and Shran, or the uncanny lack of resemblance between Saavik in TWOK and Saavik in TSFS?

In short, there is no shortage of instances in Star Trek past where it is necessary to take what we're shown figuratively because it can't be literally true. Why is that suddenly being treated as something shocking and unprecedented when applied to this film?


But one more time, What about this scene doesn't make logical sense to you again?

The only way the scene of Spock seeing Vulcan in the sky of Delta Vega, subtending a fairly wide angle, could've occurred literally as shown is if Delta Vega is closer to Vulcan than our own Moon is to the Earth. That's simple geometry. But as Spock told Uhura in "The Man Trap," "Vulcan has no moon." Even if we assume that the images of a huge body in Vulcan's sky in "Yesteryear" and the pre-Director's Edition version of TMP are accurate and are depicting a companion planet (generally called T'Khut or T'Kuht in fandom and tie-ins), those showed a rocky world, in TMP's case a very volcanically active world, not an icy one like this. So either Vulcan had two full-sized companion planets -- which would be an unsustainable configuration -- or Delta Vega is too far from Vulcan for the image we were shown to be literal. It is quite simply an impossibility as shown.

And given that it occurred within a mind meld, we have a perfectly handy explanation: it wasn't what literally happened but a mental interpretation of it. Maybe it was Kirk's mind using a visual metaphor for Spock's psionic experience of Vulcan's destruction, since he has no psionic sense of his own and couldn't possibly experience Spock's perceptions by any means other than analogy.


I do remain curious how a cadet, however awesome, would be given command of the Federation flagship. Even if he had been promoted to Captain in some way during the crisis that had to stick, I still would expect them not to give him the Enterprise.

Christopher, William, other authors - can you think of a way to justify that? If you were to write a book taking place after this, would you just ignore it, or make an attempt to explain how something like that had occurred?

I think it would be a question worth addressing. Let's just say I have some thoughts on the subject.
 
I mean, I think the movie still made clear that Kirk got this because of his intelligence, intuitive command abilities, and drive
Really? Because I think the movie made clear that he got it because of a string of coincidences and amazing good luck that the world's greatest fizzbin player wouldn't believe, plus the unexplained, unwavering faith of Chris Pike. Though that's just inside the box. Outside the box, the reason is that Abrams, Orci and Kurtzman decided the origin story had to end with Kirk becoming Captain of the Enterprise, and no amount of story illogic would keep them from slapping that ending onto the picture.
 
I mean, I think the movie still made clear that Kirk got this because of his intelligence, intuitive command abilities, and drive
Really? Because I think the movie made clear that he got it because of a string of coincidences and amazing good luck that the world's greatest fizzbin player wouldn't believe, plus the unexplained, unwavering faith of Chris Pike. Though that's just inside the box. Outside the box, the reason is that Abrams, Orci and Kurtzman decided the origin story had to end with Kirk becoming Captain of the Enterprise, and no amount of story illogic would keep them from slapping that ending onto the picture.

I really disagree. I remember thinking, in the scene where Kirk came on to the bridge having figured out what was going on, "holy crap... this guy IS KIRK." The moment proved to me, and thus the onscreen characters, that he was worthy of command right there.

Not to mention his continued insistence on returning to stop the Narada, his daring rescue of Sulu, his verbal attack that correctly showed Spock was unfit for command, and his rescue of Captain Pike.

From a mechanical perspective, there were a ton of coincidences in the story, but in every situation Kirk was put in, he acted like every bit the intuitive and forceful Captain he should've. I actually thought that proving to the audience that Kirk Was Supposed To Be A Captain was one of the biggest strengths of the movie, the only problem was that logistically the promotions seemed a bit rapid.

(I mean, compare it to Wrath Of Khan, right? Saavik quoted regulations, which Kirk ignored, and got his ship all messed up. Then he decided to use the prefix code, a tactical option Spock already had thought of. Then came the deception of the Enterprise being too damaged, also Spock's idea. And the dogfight in the Mutara nebula, Spock's idea, where the important tactical insight - Khan's lack of three dimensional thinking - was also Spock's observation. Then, at the end, when everything was going to shit, who saved the ship? Spock. And this all in a movie that was ostensibly about Kirk and Khan battling it out. The new movie did a far better job emphasizing Kirk's command abilities.)
 
I really disagree.
Well, we're going to have to agree to disagree, because I'm just sitting here shaking my head in complete incomprehension.

I remember thinking, in the scene where Kirk came on to the bridge having figured out what was going on, "holy crap... this guy IS KIRK." The moment proved to me, and thus the onscreen characters, that he was worthy of command right there.
Which scene are you talking about? As far as I can figure, you're referring to either:
a) the early scene where he makes the incredible leap that the current "lightning storm in space" is the same as the "lightning storm in space" from 25 years ago, with no evidence other than the re-use of a rather vague descriptive phrase. Which, even though Pike gives the idea credence, only demonstrates that he can play a role on a starship crew, not that he's ready to command one...

or,

b) the scene where he provokes Spock into strangling him by dissing his momma? Granted, fighting a superior officer is a way of proving command worthiness in the Mirror Universe, but only if you don't end up pinned to a tabletop with your windpipe in that other officer's fist. In the Trek universe, though, you never saw Kirk goading Commodore Decker or Ambassador Fox or Commissioner Ferris into fights in order to assert his command authority. And the only time he genuinely taunted Spock was to help him overcome the Psi 2000 virus. (And it should be pointed out that this same Kirk who wants to use a violent outburst to prove Spock is emotionally unfit for command had, mere hours earlier, been throwing punches at bridge security without provocation.)

I'm sorry, but I don't get it. You see Kirk there; I don't.
 
I have to agree with William Leisner here... Kirk comes across right through the end of his hearing as a selfish, egotistical, opprutunist. I don't feel that he cares about anyone but himself, and in spite of his heroism in the Vulcan crisis, if I am a leader in Starfleet, I am NOT assigning him command of the Enterprise, or any other ship. I'll give his heroism and quick thinking in the crisis as a writ to get out of any punishment for the Kobayashi Maru, but that's it. He gets a Lieutenant's commission, and is sent to a ship (even the Enterprise). No reason you couldn't have had a 'four years later' card pop up on screen and then have him assuming command from Pike.

Rob+
 
Even if we assume that the images of a huge body in Vulcan's sky in "Yesteryear" and the pre-Director's Edition version of TMP are accurate and are depicting a companion planet (generally called T'Khut or T'Kuht in fandom and tie-ins), those showed a rocky world, in TMP's case a very volcanically active world, not an icy one like this.

Aren't we falling into the "George Lucas" mode of thinking that every planet has only one completely homogenous climate zone? Even a volcanically active world can still have icy northern regions. I rather like the theory that Spock was stranded on T'Khut. The name would obviously be a colloquial Vulcan term (i.e., calling our satellite "The Moon" instead of "Luna"), whereas Federation Standard uses another designation (though clearly it's not the same "Delta Vega" that exists way out near the galactic barrier).

In fact, I've heard an unconfirmed report that Foster's novelization calls it "T'Khul," which is either an amazing coincidence, or a deliberate nod to the fiction, while changing the name just slightly enough to keep it ambiguous. (Can anyone confirm this?)
 
Geoff,

I don't recall any naming of Delta Vega as T'Khul, but I may be mis-remembering. I'll go back and look.

Rob+
 
And the only time he genuinely taunted Spock was to help him overcome the Psi 2000 virus.

And again to help him overcome the Omicron Ceti spores. The Kirk/Spock fight on the bridge here was a pretty blatant "This Side of Paradise" replay. I even expected Kirk to say "Had enough?" when he was at Spock's mercy.


Even if we assume that the images of a huge body in Vulcan's sky in "Yesteryear" and the pre-Director's Edition version of TMP are accurate and are depicting a companion planet (generally called T'Khut or T'Kuht in fandom and tie-ins), those showed a rocky world, in TMP's case a very volcanically active world, not an icy one like this.

Aren't we falling into the "George Lucas" mode of thinking that every planet has only one completely homogenous climate zone? Even a volcanically active world can still have icy northern regions.

Hey, I agree in principle, and I thought of that myself, but that's not what we were actually shown onscreen. The shot of the Enterprise dropping off Kirk's pod on Delta Vega clearly shows a world whose entire visible hemisphere is covered in ice, just as the TMP pre-DE matte shot shows a world that's entirely, uniformly volcanic (as much of it as we can see, at least) and the "Yesteryear" image shows one that's entirely, uniformly rocky.

And strictly speaking, quite a few planets do have homogeneous climates, though they generally aren't inhabited. Earth and Mars are pretty much the only planetary-scale bodies in Sol system that don't. Mercury and Luna are barren all over, Venus is hellishly hot all over, etc. And there have been a few times in Earth's ancient past when the planet was almost completely glaciated, a "Snowball Earth." Heck, based on our current exoplanetary theories, there are probably more planets in the galaxy that are completely covered in ice than there are planets like Earth with a mix of solid ground and oceans.



In fact, I've heard an unconfirmed report that Foster's novelization calls it "T'Khul," which is either an amazing coincidence, or a deliberate nod to the fiction, while changing the name just slightly enough to keep it ambiguous. (Can anyone confirm this?)

Foster does mention a T'Khul, but he does not equate it with Delta Vega. Rather, he mentions that some of the 10,000 survivors were Vulcan citizens who had been offworld at bases on T'Khul (by which he probably meant T'Khut but misremembered the exact name) at the time. Delta Vega is explicitly portrayed in the novel as a world in a different star system from Vulcan.
 
In fact, I've heard an unconfirmed report that Foster's novelization calls it "T'Khul," which is either an amazing coincidence, or a deliberate nod to the fiction, while changing the name just slightly enough to keep it ambiguous. (Can anyone confirm this?)

That was me. But only based on a quick riffle in the train on the way home.

The moon-like object in the Vulcan sky, "T'Kuht", was coined in the 70s by fanzine identity, Gordon Carleton, to explain the misleading TOS quote, "Vulcan has no moon, Miss Uhura" (in "The Man Trap"). Jean Lorrah once wrote Sarek & Amanda fanzine stories for T'Kuhtian Press. The TAS error in "Yesteryear" (ie. Dorothy Fontana had scribbled "remove moon" on the art she approved for Filmation, but it wasn't noticed by the animators) was retconned as "Vulcan's twin planet" in the booklet accompanying View-Master's "Yesteryear" adaptation, "Mr. Spock's Time Trek". The planetary body was also shown to dominate the Vulcan sky in "Star Trek: The Motion Picture" (TMP) in 1979, although it was eliminated for the director's edition DVD.

Several years later, the planetoid turned up in a Pocket Star Trek novel as T'Kuht in "The Vulcan Academy Murders" by Jean Lorrah, acknowledging Gordon Carleton for the name and explanation. The planetoid is even on the cover of "The Vulcan Academy Murders" and Michael Jan Friedman's "New Worlds, New Civilizations". The name is spelt "T'Khut" in Diane Duane's "Spock's World", Jeri Taylor's "Voyager: Pathways" and the books "The Worlds of the Federation" and "New Worlds, New Civilizations".

It's then called "T'Rukh" in AC Crispin's novel, "Sarek", with an explanation that the name changes are seasonal.
(So Alan Dean Foster has simply created a new seasonal name?)

It's T'Kuht again in "The Needs of the One" a DC Comics story in its TOS Special, Series II, and Geoffrey Mandel's book, "Star Trek Star Charts".
 
Last edited:
I mean, I think the movie still made clear that Kirk got this because of his intelligence, intuitive command abilities, and drive
Really? Because I think the movie made clear that he got it because of a string of coincidences and amazing good luck that the world's greatest fizzbin player wouldn't believe, plus the unexplained, unwavering faith of Chris Pike. Though that's just inside the box. Outside the box, the reason is that Abrams, Orci and Kurtzman decided the origin story had to end with Kirk becoming Captain of the Enterprise, and no amount of story illogic would keep them from slapping that ending onto the picture.

Also, remember that ST XI takes place in the year 2258. That's EIGHT YEARS before TOS' timeframe (different universe notwithstanding). If Kirk's promotion is the temporary thing I think it is - the Admiralty does make it clear that Kirk is acting as relief for Pike - then he could be busted back down to Lieutenant or even Ensign (after Pike returns to duty) and still make *real* Captain in time for 2266.
 
I think it's MORE unlikely that a fresh-faced cadet, even James T. Kirk himself, would be given the rank of Captain straight out of the Academy AND be given command of a major ship of the line.

It would be like a raw Ensign straight out of Annapolis being given command of a nuclear aircraft carrier.
 
Yeah, um, for dramatic purposes, the movie absolutely made Kirk be in command at the end of the film. "Relief" in this instance means "replacement", as it does in the present-day navy.

Unlikely or no, that's definitely what happened.
 
Kirk is The captain, he is relieving Pike according to a previously seen tradition.I recall it happening in a TNG episode with picard and Jellico.
 
If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Sign up / Register


Back
Top