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Is the Mirror Universe bound to the Prime Universe in a unique way?

If there are infinite parallel universes, it not only stands to reason that there would be something like the MU in which nearly every person, ship, etc has specific doppelgänger....it's actually an absolute certainty.

Then, you make up some fanwank garbledeegook about how this one particular universe, because of that fact, is the most easily accessed by ours.

Problem solved (and to me to actually makes sense).
 
If there are infinite parallel universes, it not only stands to reason that there would be something like the MU in which nearly every person, ship, etc has specific doppelgänger....it's actually an absolute certainty.

Then, you make up some fanwank garbledeegook about how this one particular universe, because of that fact, is the most easily accessed by ours.

I still say that's a contradiction in terms. They would still have to interact in order to establish that "easy access" connection in the first place -- they'd have to be "aware" of their similarity to each other, physically affected by each other, in order to manifest such a link. And with an infinite number of possibilities, the probability that they'd ever achieve that interaction to begin with would still be effectively zero.

Additionally, the conceit of the "infinite universes" handwave is its appeal to randomness to explain similarity where no causal connection exists. But if the universes are connected by their similarity, then there is a causal link, a finite relationship between the two, which renders the appeal to infinity irrelevant. Hence, it's an oxymoronic handwave.

Infinity is not a solution to physics problems. It's a complication. It's something that doesn't have any physically real meaning, except as a limit that things can approach but never reach. So if you get a result of infinity in a computation, you've probably done something wrong, or at least done something abstract that doesn't apply to a real-world situation.
 
When you think about it, unless they're fated to be, the moment a timeline is changed, everything from that point on is changed - though how instanteously is up for debate, be it immediate like a snap or like a very fast ripple effect. I've come across this with alternate history. If your POD is far back, like say, Abraham Lincoln doesn't die, then FDR will not be born. There's just too much changing from 1865 to 1882 that his parents not only have a lesser chance to meet, but any conception thereof would not produce FDR, but someone else. Of course, again,, unless you want to shove in fate there, but even changing a millisecond about the nature of producing a human produces...a totally different human. To say nothing, again, of the ramifications of a divergence: Abraham Lincoln surviving has a south that is reconstructed as long as he and the Radical Republicans see fit, which has ramifications for millions of people within and without the USA, produces new leaders and new villains, and all that. Who knows what could happen if, say, a Socialist Freedman became president by 1900? See how that cascades?

The ramifications of all of that has to be accounted for, otherwise it just feels lazy and not-thought-out. We are in our present situation due to specific choices, of 130 billion people throughout time, on top of 4 billion years of evolution. Change one thing, everything eventually changes. Even Gore winning rather than Bush would produce a drastically different 2020 than ours, and that's just going back 20 years - a million people might still be alive and six nations will have different fates than the ones now, and that's just to start.

Now let's look at the mirror universe: instead of a Federation, there's a Terran Empire. Amanda and Sarek came together to produce Spock in both timelines, I'm guessing, but how does that work in the mirror universe? Not saying it couldn't, but the whole social nature and structure of the empire has changed from where, in the Federation, it was barely of note, but in the Empire might be a scandal...or something far darker, like Amanda taking advantage of Sarek, or maybe they were both rebels against the system and fell in love in a cutesy revolutionary way...but that goes against the whole grain of the Mirror Universe in the first place, if Amanda and Sarek weren't flipped?

And then the Mirror Universe goes off the rails within TOS: Spock decides to change the Terran Empire from within to something like the Federation. Then it's not really the Mirror Universe, now is it? In DS9, this shows, the Empire is gone and it's a Cardassian-Klingon Alliance, which is then toppled by a new Empire? ENT says the Empire has been around for 'centuries' by 2151, so it was around by 1950, if not earlier. The only analogue that comes to mind is a warped UN. Does that mean Econ were 'good guys' in that universe? But then the Mirror Universe is also this 'evil counterpart' where everything is bloodier and grislier, right? So wouldn't Econ be worse? And then the Vulcans still come by on time in 2063 and they're not armed, mean scouts, they're still in robes and say 'hi' to Mirror Cochrane, whose only seeming difference is that he's packing heat this time around.

The whole thing doesn't work out from many angles. What is the Mirror Universe, exactly? If it's supposed to be a universe where everyone (or mostly everyone, just those who are 'important') are supposed to be opposite in nature and character than this one, then it follows that either there's a lot of coincidence and blind luck going on (well, hey, infinite multiverses, it's bound to happen eventually), or it's fated to be so by some higher power, but then the Mirror Universe splits off dramatically after 2267, where already there's no more Kirk to beget a David (who begets Genesis), nor a mirror Picard is seen or a mirror A, B, C, D, and so on, until they just magically produce a mirror Defiant to take on Mirror Worf, so on and so on....

So I can't say the Mirror Universe is bounded in some unique way. At best, everyone (important, I guess David isn't important) is born exactly when they're supposed to, develop somewhat the same way, despite massive geopolitical and social differences, to do somewhat the same things. The connection was strongest in 2063, 2154?, 2250 whatever (DISC), 226x, and broke off from there.
 
Even though they run parallel together and the share certain parallel events, the two universes are only bound together because of the events in “The Tholian Web.” and IMAD, which establishes an interphasic rift was created by the Tholians. Otherwise, Prime Universe history seems to have frequent temporal involvement that leads to the creation and continued existence of the Federation. Whereas, the mirror universe just seems to have a natural outcome without temporal interference due to how war & fascism is overtly favoured in that universe. The divergence between the two universes seem to start as early as the Renaissance, and grows wider after First Contact.

- Unknown (Polynesian navigators)
- 14th -17th centuries (Renaissance; in the mirror universe, there's likely a wider acceptance of Machiavelli over liberal thinker Thomas Hobbes, as well as a general abandonment of religion for mirror universe-style humanism)
- Late 16th-early 17th century (Shakespeare)
- 18th century (Dutch cartography, HMS Enterprize)
- 19th century (German astronomy)
- WWI, WWII, the Cold War & the birth of the atomic age (rise of Terran Empire? British Empire, France, US, Soviet Russia and Nazi Germany all still exist in the mirror universe)
- 926 – late 1950s (Robert Goddard & birth of the space age)
- Mid 20th century (Empire firmly established by this point)
- 1960s (Apollo Program)
- 1968 (Saturn V rocket)
- 1960 – 2020s? (assorted military hardware seen in the IAMD intro)
- 2063 (First Contact; end of WWIII 10 years prior)
- 21xx (fly over lunar colonies, although the mirror universe clearly have photonic torpedoes well ahead of when the NX-01 in the Prime Universe have them)
- 2153-4 (battle with Duras, Xindi conflict, destruction of Rigelian ship)
- 2256-7 (DSC)
- 2267-8 (Mirror, Mirror, The Tholian Web)
- 2370s (Terok Nor)

I think the bigger question is if the Kelvinverse also has a mirror counterpart, or are they on their own and its just another parallel universe?
 
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I prefer to think that there some form of 'locality' to the multiverse, that it is 'easier' to reach the familiar than the different, and often use the color wheel as an analogy to illustrate what I mean. (For example, It is 'easier' to go from red to red-orange than it is to go from red to yellow-orange.) It;s an arbitrary choice to view it that way but no less arbitrary than expecting a random result from one's inter-universe travel.
 
When you think about it, unless they're fated to be, the moment a timeline is changed, everything from that point on is changed - though how instanteously is up for debate, be it immediate like a snap or like a very fast ripple effect.

That's a contradiction in terms. Time itself doesn't move through time. You have to step outside of time and think of it as lines on a graph where past and future are merely directions along an axis. If there are two different versions of history at the point on the axis corresponding to, say, March 6, 2020, then one doesn't "replace" the other; they are both occurring at the same moment in parallel tracks. It may look to the time traveler like one version happens "before" the other, but that's an illusion resulting from the time traveler's world line looping backward along the graph and then proceeding forward again in the new timeline. To the objective universe, they are simultaneous.

In any case, just because things can change from that point on doesn't guarantee they will. History is multicausal. Anything that happens is going to be the result of many interacting processes and forces. If you change the right thing at the right time, then yeah, it could cause a domino effect that changes everything thereafter; but if you change something else, it might not be enough to derail all the other processes in play, and the change will be cancelled out and things will still play out pretty much the same in the long run.

People sometimes evoke the butterfly effect (a butterfly flapping its wings can cause a hurricane, etc.) to argue that a tiny change must have massive consequences, but that's misunderstanding what the butterfly metaphor is saying. It's meant to illustrate chaos theory -- that it's impossible to predict with certainty exactly how a process will unfold because even a slight difference could have unpredictable effects. Not that it's required to, just that it could, so you can't make any certain predictions about a sufficiently complex process. It's just as likely that the butterfly's wings will have no effect at all.


ENT says the Empire has been around for 'centuries' by 2151, so it was around by 1950, if not earlier.

Assuming you can trust that claim. Like I said, tyrannies are built on lies. The history the Empire teaches its subjects can't be trusted to be the truth. They may well be a younger empire that claims to have been around for centuries as part of the myth it sells to justify its power and make itself seem eternal and unbeatable. The images seen in the "In a Mirror, Darkly" titles could be historical propaganda rather than objective truth.


I think the bigger question is if the Kelvinverse also has a mirror counterpart, or are they on their own and its just another parallel universe?

The Kelvin comics from IDW claim they have their own Mirror Universe, but the comics' writer buys into the "random infinite universes" theory that I don't care for. The filmmakers' intention was that Kelvin branched off in 2233 due to Nero's arrival, so presumably it would just be one more alternate alongside the MU rather than having "its own" MU.
 
It is my belief that Star Trek happens in an alternate universe which diverged from ours before TOS was produced.

The writers of various Star Trek productions occasionally referred to future historical events happening after their stories were produced, and occasionally referred to various past historical events that happened before their stories were written.

And when writers of scripts mentioned past historical events, sometimes their references were accurate mentions of real historical events that actually happened according to the best knowledge of historians then and now, and sometimes they were inaccurate, describing popular ideas about history which were not accurate.

When writers for TOS mentioned inaccurate historical beliefs, sometimes they may have been corrected by Kellam de Forest, who checked the scripts for factual accuracy and other possible problems. And sometimes Kellam de Forest's corrections were made to the shooting scrpt and got into the filmed episode, and sometimes they did not for various reasons, and other times de Forest might not have noticed those historical inaccuracies.

https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Kellam_de_Forest

And if inaccurate popular ideas were mentioned in various TOS productions, and were never corrected in later TOS productions, they became accurate in the fictional universe of Star Trek. And so Star Trek should be in an alternate universe which diverged from ours sometime between the accurate historical reference with the latest date and the inaccurate historical reference with the earliest date. Because once something happens differently and two different alternate universes branch off, they will continue to get more and more different as time passes.

But shockingly, that is not the case with the alternate universe of Star Trek productions. There is not a date, such as 1900, or 1800, or any other date, that all the accurate historical references are before, and all the inaccurate historical historical references are after. Instead, both the accurate and the inaccurate historical references are distributed randomly through history, so that one or several accurate historical references might be followed chronologically by one or more inaccurate historical references, then one or more accurate historical references, and then one or more inaccurate historical references, all through history.

And that should not happen if two alternate universes develop naturally after the diverging moment. They should get more and more different over time.

So therefore, I deduce that some intelligent purpose is working against the natural drifting apart of our universe and the Star Trek universe. From time to time some intelligence checks how the two universes are developing, and if they are becoming more different forces similar events to happen within both universes and so make them more similar. And this intelligence may be working to make not just two universes, but countless gazillions of alternate universe develop in similar ways.

The goal of this intelligence might be to make all the universes as much like ours as possible, or it may be to make all the universes as much like that of Star Trek as possible, or it may be to make all the alternate universes, including both our universe and the Star Trek universe, as close to some third universe as possible,

In "Mirror, Mirror" the people of the alternate Mirror Universe seem to think that the Terran Empire has existed all their lives and possibly for generations before they were born. But if the social and political situations in the two alternate universes were already different, the parents of the characters should probably have had sex at different times and dates, if they were even together at all. And so different parental sperm would have fertilized different eggs and any children which the parents would have had would have different genes and be different persons.

So that indicates that the divergence should have happened after the youngest regular was born.

I note that the alternate universe Chekov seemed to be the same age as the regular Chekov, who said he was 22 years old in "Who Mourns for Adonais?" Sulu and Uhura should be a few years older than Chekov, Kirk should be about 12 years older than Chekov, Spock a little older, and McCoy and Scott should be two decades older. So if the two universes diverged after Chekov was born, the Terran Empire should be something new to the other regulars, who should have memories of the time before the Terran Empire, instead of acting like the Terran Empire is the only form of government conceivable.

And the same thing is true in Mirror Universe stories set in the era of TNG, about a century after TOS, and in the era of ENT, about a century before TOS. The mirror universes in those stories should have diverged after the births of the yougnest regular characters who have alternate selves in the alternate universes, so they should be three separate alternate universes.diverging from the main s universe at three different points spread out over 200 years. But instead they are allegedly the same alternate universe at different times. Anyway, at any one time the regular characters with alternate selves vary greatly in age, and yet even the oldest think that their society has existed for at least all their lives.

Therefore, I deduce that the hypothetical intelligence responsible for making our universe and that of Star Trek experience similar events after diverging from each other for a while, is also responsible for having people with the same genes be born in the Star Trek universe and the Mirror Universe, years, decades, and centuries after the Mirror Universe diverged from that of Star Trek, and thus years, decades, and centuries after such duplicate births should be possible.

Thus it may be possible that in the multiverse of Star Trek , God is a Star Trek fan.
 
The difference between MU and Parallels universes is MU is still tied to the prime universe. In a Parallels universe where the timeline diverged hundreds of years ago none of the cast would exist, cause totally different parents would have met each other and reproduced.

There has to be intelligent design to it. Either the thoughtspace of one of the universes affects the other, or a higher being created the link.

Maybe the MU is a giant warp bubble created from the sublimated dark impulses of the human race. Or the other way around. An MU warp engineer created a warp bubble and trapped someone inside who was thinking she wished for a better world where humanity evolved and got past their differences. Only that bubble was permanently stable. And the bubble is the size of the universe now, so whenever somebody is born, the telepathic energy creates a better version of that person in the bubble.

Ooh, and the bubble is stable because it was snagged in the mycelial network!
 
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The difference between MU and Parallels universes is MU is still tied to the prime universe. In a Parallels universe where the timeline diverged hundreds of years ago none of the cast would exist, cause totally different parents would have met each other and reproduced.

There's no onscreen evidence of any such distinction, since none of the "Parallels" timelines has been diverged for all that long. By the nature of the story, they all had to be timelines in which Worf served on the Enterprise and happened to pass through a quantum fissure on stardate 47391.2. Therefore, they did not include any timelines that diverged hundreds of years ago with none of the cast existing.

If anything, "Parallels" implies the same kind of convergence of events that we see in the Mirror Universe, because all of the timelines put Worf and the Enterprise at that quantum fissure at the same moment no matter how much their pasts have diverged.
 
There's no onscreen evidence of any such distinction, since none of the "Parallels" timelines has been diverged for all that long. By the nature of the story, they all had to be timelines in which Worf served on the Enterprise and happened to pass through a quantum fissure on stardate 47391.2. Therefore, they did not include any timelines that diverged hundreds of years ago with none of the cast existing.

If anything, "Parallels" implies the same kind of convergence of events that we see in the Mirror Universe, because all of the timelines put Worf and the Enterprise at that quantum fissure at the same moment no matter how much their pasts have diverged.

Alexander doesn’t exist in the other universes.

There’s no direct on screen evidence but it’s an extension of common sense.
 
Alexander doesn’t exist in the other universes.

Yes, he does exist in at least one of the timelines Worf experiences in the early part of the episode (since we never actually see him in his home timeline until the very end). In the second timeline (after Worf gets dizzy and the birthday cake changes from chocolate to yellow), he opens a present from Alexander. It's only later on, as he shifts into more and more divergent timelines, that he encounters ones where Alexander doesn't exist.

Besides, Jake Sisko didn't exist in the Mirror Universe. So this doesn't constitute a meaningful difference between "Parallels" and the MU episodes.


There’s no direct on screen evidence but it’s an extension of common sense.

Except it's clearly established by this point that common sense never applies to this kind of parallel-reality writing in fiction. The goal of such stories is to play around with alternate versions of the characters we know, so they're never about parallels that follow common sense by having completely different people being born.
 
By the nature of the story, they all had to be timelines in which Worf served on the Enterprise and happened to pass through a quantum fissure on stardate 47391.2.

Hrm, but there is more than one reality in which he never went to the tournament at all. In one, he sent his brother instead. And in the "final" reality, Captain Riker also says that he knows for a fact that Worf never attended that tournament and even no shuttlecraft had left the Enterprise for over a month. The only way therefore for Worf to have traveled through that quantum fissure would have been if the Ent-D itself traveled through it in those realities. Which in turn would beg the question why Worf would be the only one affected in those realities and not the other crewmembers of that Enterprise. If the answer to that would be that the phenomenon was triggered only by specific additional circumstances in the Prime universe (where only Worf passed through it), that could perhaps mean that the condition of Worf passing through that quantum fissure at that point in time in all those realities isn't a strict requirement.

Probably another "practical" requirement for the story: only universes where the VISOR is present. That is, he could have jumped to a universe that didn't but then his "sliding" would have stopped immediately after that, stopping the story.
 
Assuming you can trust that claim. Like I said, tyrannies are built on lies. The history the Empire teaches its subjects can't be trusted to be the truth. They may well be a younger empire that claims to have been around for centuries as part of the myth it sells to justify its power and make itself seem eternal and unbeatable. The images seen in the "In a Mirror, Darkly" titles could be historical propaganda rather than objective truth.

Well Georgiou indicated that the roots of the mirror universe goes back at least a millennia, meaning the Renaissance (1300 – 1650) when referring to “compassionate ideologies” being rid of. Maybe by the end of the Renaissance in the mirror universe, there was a goal to have a pan-Terran authoritarian humanist society that sets up the framework of the Terran Empire. Hence, the Terran Empire dating back centuries.

Not discounting propaganda being used though to make it seem it existed longer than it had. That’s right up the alley of the Terran Empire.
 
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Well Georgiou indicated that the roots of the mirror universe goes back at least a millennia, meaning the Renaissance (1300 – 1650) when referring to “compassionate ideologies” being rid of.

Yet you acknowledge that empires use lies and propaganda, so why should we believe her?
 
It also doesn't mean that is not true.

That's a given. It's not a binary choice. The point is simply that it's good to have doubt and be open to more than one possibility, rather than just blindly, gullibly accepting every spoken line as gospel. Questioning what we are told is healthy.
 
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