Is the Klingon D7 Class and K'Tinga Class Battlecruiser the same ship?

[INACTIVEUSS Einstein]

Re: Is the Klingon D7 Class and K'Tinga Class Battlecruiser the same s

I blame Harve Bennett and Star Trek III. Kruge and the BOP were originally supposed to be Romulan. The story goes that Bennett changed the enemy to Klingons, since they were the original enemy species.

Whole mess has been muddied up ever since.

I don't mind that either.

The Klingons had some cool music in Star Trek III - sounded like Tibetan horns/trumpets.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SIEqiCPiMNc

 

[Unicron]

Re: Is the Klingon D7 Class and K'Tinga Class Battlecruiser the same s

Personally, I'm kind of mixed. I generally have tended to regard them as essentially being the same design, and I don't consider the TMP modifications to be that great of a chance compared to how the Enterprise was updated. I recall hearing at some point that one reason the movie Enterprise kept the "Constitution class" moniker was at Gene's insistence, because he didn't like the idea of "replacing" the original ship.

However, that being said, I recently have been getting some of the old FASA stuff and I'm a bit more comfortable with the D7 designation being the specific type, and the two versions being separate models of that type. FASA said that the K'Tinga name only applied to one specific model, and that other variants had different names. I've seen the names Klolode and Klothos suggested for the TOS model, so I don't mind including those as specific variants of the D7 class.

 

[Navigator_NCC2120]

Re: Is the Klingon D7 Class and K'Tinga Class Battlecruiser the same s

I blame Harve Bennett and Star Trek III. Kruge and the BOP were originally supposed to be Romulan. The story goes that Bennett changed the enemy to Klingons, since they were the original enemy species.

Whole mess has been muddied up ever since.

I agree with you except I remember reading back then that one of the reasons for changing the enemy from Romulans to Klingons was because it was thought that the Romulans looked too much like Vulcans to the average movie going audiences that were not Star Trek fans. So to avoid this confusion the Romulan enemy was changed to Klingon. However, I cannot find anything on the internet to support this.

The closest related thing I could find is from wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Trek_3):

Originally, the Romulans were the villains, but Nimoy preferred the more "theatrical" Klingons,[20] feeling that their pursuit of Genesis was analogous to the Soviet race for nuclear weaponry.[15]

Navigator NCC-2120 USS Entente
/\

 

[Nerys Myk]

Re: Is the Klingon D7 Class and K'Tinga Class Battlecruiser the same s

I really hate that the Enterprise writers were too stupid to remember that "warbird" referred to one specific Romulan vessel in TNG, and now we're stuck with it as a Klingon reference.

The design is also referred to as a Klingon warbird in Star Trek XI.

John M. Ford's The Final Reflection refers to Klingon ships as "Warbirds" way back in 1984.

 

[Forbin]

Re: Is the Klingon D7 Class and K'Tinga Class Battlecruiser the same s

EVERYbody's wrong!!!!

 

[The Wormhole]

Re: Is the Klingon D7 Class and K'Tinga Class Battlecruiser the same s

I really hate that the Enterprise writers were too stupid to remember that "warbird" referred to one specific Romulan vessel in TNG, and now we're stuck with it as a Klingon reference.

The design is also referred to as a Klingon warbird in Star Trek XI.

John M. Ford's The Final Reflection refers to Klingon ships as "Warbirds" way back in 1984.

Good thing books aren't canon.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Re: Is the Klingon D7 Class and K'Tinga Class Battlecruiser the same s

The design is also referred to as a Klingon warbird in Star Trek XI.

John M. Ford's The Final Reflection refers to Klingon ships as "Warbirds" way back in 1984.

Good thing books aren't canon.

True. But Ford's book is usually thought of as "Klingons done right", probably by some of the folks who shout "Canon violation!!!!!" at Klingon Warbirds.

 

[Star Wolf]

Re: Is the Klingon D7 Class and K'Tinga Class Battlecruiser the same s

John M. Ford's The Final Reflection refers to Klingon ships as "Warbirds" way back in 1984.

Good thing books aren't canon.

True. But Ford's book is usually thought of as "Klingons done right", probably by some of the folks who shout "Canon violation!!!!!" at Klingon Warbirds.

It was more generational I think. Those of us who watched the 72 episodes over and over on syndication had that book before TNG came around to change everything.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Re: Is the Klingon D7 Class and K'Tinga Class Battlecruiser the same s

Good thing books aren't canon.

True. But Ford's book is usually thought of as "Klingons done right", probably by some of the folks who shout "Canon violation!!!!!" at Klingon Warbirds.

It was more generational I think. Those of us who watched the 72 episodes over and over on syndication had that book before TNG came around to change everything.

Though I'm one of the "72ers" and have been reading Treklit since the Blish days, I've only just read "The Final Reflection". I think I tried to read it when it first came out, but put it down. Which is pretty rare for me. Reading it in 2012 was a bit surreal, as I had to push everything that has developed with the Klingons over the last four or so decades to the back of my mind to enjoy the book without having a nerd meltdown .

 

[JoeZhang]

Re: Is the Klingon D7 Class and K'Tinga Class Battlecruiser the same s

I watched all of TNG and DS9 first and was talking to a friend about how much I hated on-screen klingons

"Honour!" "Where is your honour!" "GRRRRRR"

Yeah, yeah.. fuck your honour and the horse it rode on in.

Anyway.. he gave me a copy of the book and I read it and loved it.

 

[Dukhat]

Re: Is the Klingon D7 Class and K'Tinga Class Battlecruiser the same s

Personally, I believe that some things mentioned or shown on screen should really just be ignored in favor of simple common sense, when those things are quite clearly mistakes.

TNG pretty much beat us over the head with the term "warbird" being exclusive to Romulan ships, at least ships of the D'Deridex class. So the relatively few uses of the term later to describe Klingon ships are just misnomers, IMHO.

The K'T'inga model used in ENT's "Unexpected" was never meant to be used. The actual, more primitive-looking CGI battlecruiser intended for the scene was nixed at the last minute for something so ridiculous as the producers not liking how the lights looked on it. Having a K'T'inga in existence a century before the D7s makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. It should simply be ignored in favor of the more logical progression of technology (i.e. D5, D7, K'T'inga).

 

[C.E. Evans]

Re: Is the Klingon D7 Class and K'Tinga Class Battlecruiser the same s

It really isn't that implausible at all that term "warbird" originated with the Klingons. In TOS, the Klingons and the Romulans apparently entered into an alliance against the Federation (Romulans were using the D7 design and it seems Klingons gained cloaking technology). It really wouldn't be that hard of a stretch that the Romulans started referring to their bird-shaped ships as warbirds too and the name stuck.

 

[Star Wolf]

Re: Is the Klingon D7 Class and K'Tinga Class Battlecruiser the same s

It really isn't that implausible at all that term "warbird" originated with the Klingons. In TOS, the Klingons and the Romulans apparently entered into an alliance against the Federation (Romulans were using the D7 design and it seems Klingons gained cloaking technology). It really wouldn't be that hard of a stretch that the Romulans started referring to their bird-shaped ships as warbirds too and the name stuck.

I just remember Lt Stiles going on about knowing it was Romulan because they had a bird of prey painted on them. Call me confused when we started seeing more Klingon Birds of Prey then just about any other class of ship

 

[Nerys Myk]

Re: Is the Klingon D7 Class and K'Tinga Class Battlecruiser the same s

Why should hull decoration determine what the Romulans or even the Feds call their ships? All their ships have that decoration according to Stiles. Surely they have more than one class/design of ships.

Also, why can't there be "Warbirds" and "Birds of Prey" in both Empires? Could be they are just translations of Romulan/Klingon words into Federation Standard.

 

[Timo]

Re: Is the Klingon D7 Class and K'Tinga Class Battlecruiser the same s

TNG pretty much beat us over the head with the term "warbird" being exclusive to Romulan ships

...And TOS beat us over the head with the term "starship" being exclusive to the class of ships Kirk's Enterprise was a representative of.

Also, why can't there be "Warbirds" and "Birds of Prey" in both Empires? Could be they are just translations of Romulan/Klingon words into Federation Standard.

Or even Vulcan terminology for starships, considering that we explicitly heard Vulcans providing our Earthling heroes with the "warbird" concept in the pilot episode, and that Vulcans would be the likeliest source for terminology relating to the Romulan war machine just prior to the big war...

We know Romulans are big on bird themes. But they supposedly were that even before the big rift, as they were known as "those who marched under the raptor's wings"... It may well be an old Vulcan thing to regard spacecraft as avians.

Regarding the D-7 designation, we might note that the term D-5 was used in an exclusively Klingon discussion (supposedly conducted in Klingonese) in "Once More Unto the Breach", making it a bit less likely that this would be a "NATO name" given to the Klingon designs by their enemies.

As for it being an overarching designation for a family of designs, it's a good idea as such - but D-12 in ST:GEN seemed to be a very specific designation for a narrow sub-type of Bird of Prey. Unless we read Worf's comments there as indicating that this is "an old type of D-12 BoP" rather than "D-12, an old type of BoP"...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[137th Gebirg]

Re: Is the Klingon D7 Class and K'Tinga Class Battlecruiser the same s

Or even Vulcan terminology for starships, considering that we explicitly heard Vulcans providing our Earthling heroes with the "warbird" concept in the pilot episode, and that Vulcans would be the likeliest source for terminology relating to the Romulan war machine just prior to the big war...

We know Romulans are big on bird themes. But they supposedly were that even before the big rift, as they were known as "those who marched under the raptor's wings"... It may well be an old Vulcan thing to regard spacecraft as avians.

Makes sense. Starfleet got its "Class M" planetary designation from the Vulcan "Minshara" class. Not much of a stretch to extend it into ship classes.

 

[Lonemagpie]

Re: Is the Klingon D7 Class and K'Tinga Class Battlecruiser the same s

Even us mere humans call military planes "warbirds" - it's probably a pretty universal term

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Re: Is the Klingon D7 Class and K'Tinga Class Battlecruiser the same s

It really isn't that implausible at all that term "warbird" originated with the Klingons. In TOS, the Klingons and the Romulans apparently entered into an alliance against the Federation (Romulans were using the D7 design and it seems Klingons gained cloaking technology). It really wouldn't be that hard of a stretch that the Romulans started referring to their bird-shaped ships as warbirds too and the name stuck.

I just remember Lt Stiles going on about knowing it was Romulan because they had a bird of prey painted on them. Call me confused when we started seeing more Klingon Birds of Prey then just about any other class of ship

Call me confused, too.

At least until ENT came along, I was content to imagine that the sharing of technology shown in The Enterprise Incident flowed both ways, as for instance in STIII the Klingons were shown using a cloaking device, to reconcile the designation of "Bird-of-Prey" for Klingon ships.

 

[Timo]

Re: Is the Klingon D7 Class and K'Tinga Class Battlecruiser the same s

That "sharing of technology" might have consisted solely of Romulans capturing some Klingon ships, though...

Invisibility seems commonplace enough in ENT, but it also ends up being a common trick in TOS, the TOS movies and TNG. Yet this does not stop our heroes in "Devil's Due" from jumping to the conclusion that an invisible foe must be operating a Romulan cloaking device specifically! And it's the Romulans who get the Feds to sign a non-cloaking treaty. It appears that there's something special about Romulan invisibility as compared to others... Perhaps justifying the odd twist in "Balance of Terror" where invisibility comes as a nasty surprise to our heroes, even though Archer's old adventures should have prepared them well for such things already.

Another case where invisibility seems to come in different flavors is ST3:TSfS where our heroes immediately realize their invisible opponent must be the Klingons (rather than, say, Romulans) flying a Bird of Prey (rather than, say, a Warbird). Were the Klingon battle cruisers of the era incapable of cloaking, perhaps (despite their Romulan exact counterparts being quite capable)? Or was the telltale optical distortion a sign of the poor cloaks typical of small BoPs, whereas the big cruisers were invariably protected by higher-quality, non-distorting devices? This might take us back to the "D-12 with defective plasma coils" thing from ST:GEN.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[137th Gebirg]

Re: Is the Klingon D7 Class and K'Tinga Class Battlecruiser the same s

^^^ I was always under the impression that Klingon cloaks just weren't all that great, much like their dodgy warp cores (mentioned in ST4) and other technology in general.

I can't remember where it came from, but there was some additional speculation that, while traveling under sub-standard cloak for so long, Kruge and his crew became somewhat mentally unstable (at least, by Klingon standards), which is why he was willing to risk war with the Federation by crossing deep into Fed space without much of a second thought, brazenly attack any Starfleet or non-SF ships he ran into along the way (Merchantman, Grissom, Enterprise), combined with his "dishonorable" use of hostages to achieve his goals. Again, by Klingon standards, he was a complete nutjob.

By the time the 24th century rolls around the technology has clearly improved, as BoP's like the Rotarran clearly didn't have such issues.