Is the Federation communist?
- Thread starter qmithani
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darkwing_duck1
Vice Admiral
More to the point, since space ships are apparently free (or at least really easy to get if you have a reason to want one) then the act of going out and looking for a nice M-class planet to colonize is technically free as well... you don't have to spend money, just alot of time and antimatter.
This might explain why the Maquis are so pissed off about loosing their colony worlds to the Cardassians. It's not like they bought the land... it's not like they've ever had to buy anything in their entire lives. They found that land through their own effort--fair and square--and then along come the freaking money-loving Cardassians who come blowing in from that fascist shithole they call a planet laying claim to everything they see just because they can. In modern terms, that would be like North Korean government coming along and buying the entire American west coast from the Federal Government; Californians would be at least as pissed at their government for selling them out as they would at the Koreans for buying their state.
The irony is, neither has capitalism. In fact, we seem further away from a pure capitalist system than ever.
I think FlyingLemons is right. I came to the conclusion that the Feds have a system very similar to one described in the GURPS role playing setting called Transhuman Space. In that setting there is a political movement called Nanosocialism. I don't feel like quoting the page and a half of description in the rulebook, but as I read it I saw the Federation. Simply replace the nanofabricators with replicators.
Briefly, nanosocialism eliminates intellectual property. The government sponsors research and the results are made available to the public by the government.
I am sure you can find details (if your interested) at the Transhuman Space wiki page. But really, as I read the concept it fits the way the Federation is described to a T.
Yes, there is still the need for some kind of command economy for the infrastructure. Especially power production; the true limitation on trek tech. I have always considered the credit to be an energy credit granted to the populace by the government. You can use that for replicating whatever, or for purchasing hand crafted items. Because, while Joe Sisko may love running a restaurant, I doubt his waiters and pot scrubbers love there work enough to do it for free. So the customers come in and turn over a few energy credits to old Joe and he can reimburse his helpers for their time. And perhaps reimburse the people who provide his fresh veggies and clams and whatever else he needs to make his famous gumbo. Because say what you will about people doing what they love, farming is hard work. I doubt people would be willing to invest the massive amount of time and energy into growing and harvesting all of these crops and then just give them away.
Ok, you might find a few people in love with farming who would do that, but not enough to provide the crops needed to just give them to anyone who wants them.
Just seems to me...
Hello, this is actually my first post but I have been a lurker for a while. I hope you will tolerate me OK on the BBS ☺. Please excuse my rather lengthy post but I really want to get my point across.
The way I perceive the Federation is as both “communist” and “capitalist”, sort of a stratified financial system. “Communism” as a definition not as a political ideology simply means that everyone in the community contributes to the upkeep and well-being of everyone else, and it is only through the heavy handed and totalitarian attempts at forced imposition that it has come to be associated with a negative connotation. Now, lest anyone think otherwise I am far from a far left-wing liberal and my family is actually originally from Cuba where we have seen to negative effects of communism firsthand. I firmly believe that communism is not feasible on Earth as it is today, however, as many have mentioned the Federation has a “post-scarcity” economy where a sort of “communist” society could exist.
That being said I also see a sort of “capitalist” side. Clearly there are still entrepreneurs in the 23rd century as established by the existence of Harry Mudd and Cyrano Jones as well as Carter Winston (in the debatably canonical TAS). Also in Errand of Mercy Spock posed as a “Vulcan trader……. A dealer in kevas and trillium.” and nobody blinked an eye at it. Now both Harry Mudd and Cyrano Jones are unsavory characters but I believe this is incidental and not indicative or characteristic of businessmen in the future. The fact that there is no scarcity does not mean that anyone can have anything they desire at anytime and this is where the “capitalistic” aspect comes in. No amount of Replicator rations is going to allow two people to be able to live in the exact same spot overlooking the Golden Gate Bridge or to possess the same Rembrandt painting etc… As a coin collector I can attest that part of the appeal is knowing that I have something which has existed throughout history and a replicated coin just wouldn’t be the same. Now, the point has been brought up that by the 23rd and definitely by the 24th centuries humans have evolved past the “acquisitive” and “greedy” stages to a more enlightened existence hastened my the horror and trauma of the 3rd World War. However, the human desire to own things has existed since time immemorial and has survived through situations and eras ostensibly as catastrophic and traumatic as WWIII (the Black Death in Eurasia, the Post-1492 Amerindian epidemics, etc…) so I doubt that all of a sudden people will be OK with just having a large communal stash of everything. Additionally, owning things in and of itself is not a bad thing and I hardly consider myself a “ruthless cutthroat corporate type” simply because I would like to own my house and a few personal effects. This being the case there has by necessity to be some way of determining who would get the desired possession other than arbitrarily (which would make it a totalitarian state) or purely by merit (which would severely limit much of the population).
This brings up the topic of currency and the fact that Picard clearly stated in First Contact (and was reiterated in In the Cards) that the Federation has no money. The lack of “money” in my view is not necessarily exclusive of business and trade. “Money” as we now perceive it, is either a scarce precious material or a promissory note which represents such material (more or less). In the future with Replicators able to create most precious materials out of thin air, clearly a currency based on some sort of physical material would not stand up to muster. However, there is something that cannot be replicated and that is time and labor. In my view a “credit” is simply a quantifiable unit expressing how much effort you have put into “bettering yourself and the rest of humanity”. For example say you spend one hour scrubbing pans in Sisko’s restaurant you might get 1 “credit”, if you spend two hours picking grapes at the Picard Vineyard you might get 2 “credits”, if you help develop a new Runabout class for Stafleet you might get 100 “credits” which while technically not “money” still works as currency easily recognizable by any current human. Now this graded remuneration scale might seem to some as recapitulating the very same problems that we have with our current financial institutions with “the few” (rich) exploiting “the many” (poor), however, the current inequality is based on the scarcity of resources available which is not a factor in the Star Trek universe.
So, for example, if you do not have any particular motivation or driving desire to do anything dramatic with your life you could simply wake up in a Federation provided bed in a Federation provided apartment. You could go to a Federation provided Replicator and make breakfast with Federation provided energy. You could then take some Federation provided public transportation and go to a Federation provided public recreation area and kick back with no one thinking any less of you. However, if you want to live in a house overlooking San Francisco Bay, or have you own spaceship, or to sample Joseph Sisko’s delectable cuisine, then you better brush off the old resume and actually start “bettering” something in society. This also handily explains why Ferengi and other material based economies are not easily compatible because there is no reason why they should care about something that does not directly benefit them and does not provide any material benefit. A bigger question is why Ferengi society is so acquisitive and capitalistic granted that they too have access to Replicator technology.
Now, there would probably be some aspect of barter involved as well, as a system entirely based on your contribution to society would by definition limit those who could not contribute as much and once again unequal socioeconomic stratification would occur, this time based on intelligence and merit but still undesirable. So I think that there would be a lot of points awarded for effort. Additionally, if material gain is not the primary motivation most things would be had at cost which would make things much more accessible to Joe Federation. So, both “communist” and “capitalist”.
Well to everyone who actually got through my post thank you for taking the time to read it and hopefully I have made some good points and garnered some converts to my point of view ☺
The way I perceive the Federation is as both “communist” and “capitalist”, sort of a stratified financial system. “Communism” as a definition not as a political ideology simply means that everyone in the community contributes to the upkeep and well-being of everyone else, and it is only through the heavy handed and totalitarian attempts at forced imposition that it has come to be associated with a negative connotation. Now, lest anyone think otherwise I am far from a far left-wing liberal and my family is actually originally from Cuba where we have seen to negative effects of communism firsthand. I firmly believe that communism is not feasible on Earth as it is today, however, as many have mentioned the Federation has a “post-scarcity” economy where a sort of “communist” society could exist.
That being said I also see a sort of “capitalist” side. Clearly there are still entrepreneurs in the 23rd century as established by the existence of Harry Mudd and Cyrano Jones as well as Carter Winston (in the debatably canonical TAS). Also in Errand of Mercy Spock posed as a “Vulcan trader……. A dealer in kevas and trillium.” and nobody blinked an eye at it. Now both Harry Mudd and Cyrano Jones are unsavory characters but I believe this is incidental and not indicative or characteristic of businessmen in the future. The fact that there is no scarcity does not mean that anyone can have anything they desire at anytime and this is where the “capitalistic” aspect comes in. No amount of Replicator rations is going to allow two people to be able to live in the exact same spot overlooking the Golden Gate Bridge or to possess the same Rembrandt painting etc… As a coin collector I can attest that part of the appeal is knowing that I have something which has existed throughout history and a replicated coin just wouldn’t be the same. Now, the point has been brought up that by the 23rd and definitely by the 24th centuries humans have evolved past the “acquisitive” and “greedy” stages to a more enlightened existence hastened my the horror and trauma of the 3rd World War. However, the human desire to own things has existed since time immemorial and has survived through situations and eras ostensibly as catastrophic and traumatic as WWIII (the Black Death in Eurasia, the Post-1492 Amerindian epidemics, etc…) so I doubt that all of a sudden people will be OK with just having a large communal stash of everything. Additionally, owning things in and of itself is not a bad thing and I hardly consider myself a “ruthless cutthroat corporate type” simply because I would like to own my house and a few personal effects. This being the case there has by necessity to be some way of determining who would get the desired possession other than arbitrarily (which would make it a totalitarian state) or purely by merit (which would severely limit much of the population).
This brings up the topic of currency and the fact that Picard clearly stated in First Contact (and was reiterated in In the Cards) that the Federation has no money. The lack of “money” in my view is not necessarily exclusive of business and trade. “Money” as we now perceive it, is either a scarce precious material or a promissory note which represents such material (more or less). In the future with Replicators able to create most precious materials out of thin air, clearly a currency based on some sort of physical material would not stand up to muster. However, there is something that cannot be replicated and that is time and labor. In my view a “credit” is simply a quantifiable unit expressing how much effort you have put into “bettering yourself and the rest of humanity”. For example say you spend one hour scrubbing pans in Sisko’s restaurant you might get 1 “credit”, if you spend two hours picking grapes at the Picard Vineyard you might get 2 “credits”, if you help develop a new Runabout class for Stafleet you might get 100 “credits” which while technically not “money” still works as currency easily recognizable by any current human. Now this graded remuneration scale might seem to some as recapitulating the very same problems that we have with our current financial institutions with “the few” (rich) exploiting “the many” (poor), however, the current inequality is based on the scarcity of resources available which is not a factor in the Star Trek universe.
So, for example, if you do not have any particular motivation or driving desire to do anything dramatic with your life you could simply wake up in a Federation provided bed in a Federation provided apartment. You could go to a Federation provided Replicator and make breakfast with Federation provided energy. You could then take some Federation provided public transportation and go to a Federation provided public recreation area and kick back with no one thinking any less of you. However, if you want to live in a house overlooking San Francisco Bay, or have you own spaceship, or to sample Joseph Sisko’s delectable cuisine, then you better brush off the old resume and actually start “bettering” something in society. This also handily explains why Ferengi and other material based economies are not easily compatible because there is no reason why they should care about something that does not directly benefit them and does not provide any material benefit. A bigger question is why Ferengi society is so acquisitive and capitalistic granted that they too have access to Replicator technology.
Now, there would probably be some aspect of barter involved as well, as a system entirely based on your contribution to society would by definition limit those who could not contribute as much and once again unequal socioeconomic stratification would occur, this time based on intelligence and merit but still undesirable. So I think that there would be a lot of points awarded for effort. Additionally, if material gain is not the primary motivation most things would be had at cost which would make things much more accessible to Joe Federation. So, both “communist” and “capitalist”.
Well to everyone who actually got through my post thank you for taking the time to read it and hopefully I have made some good points and garnered some converts to my point of view ☺
Welcome, Mycobac! What a well-thought-out and insightful first post.
I believe your assessment is quite fair and logical. I find your take on credits appealing, but I do wonder how workable having a unit of trade not reflective of a particular standard is? Surely there must be some means of conversion for trading with other species? Perhaps the 'lack of money' just means they don't have currency and only use some type of electronic instant payment system?
I believe your assessment is quite fair and logical. I find your take on credits appealing, but I do wonder how workable having a unit of trade not reflective of a particular standard is? Surely there must be some means of conversion for trading with other species? Perhaps the 'lack of money' just means they don't have currency and only use some type of electronic instant payment system?
That would be my interpretation as well.
Now if only we could do that right here, today.
That would be my interpretation as well.
Now if only we could do that right here, today.
I don't know - personally I think the elements of the Federation economic system we've seen (lack of currency included) are ones that we don't need to veer to until we get more reliable technology. And replicators.
(This is the part where I avoid going on the tangent about how we're veering that way anyway and how worthless treasury notes are in any case.
)
I always saw the Federation as more of a United Nations type entity, not a governing body of any kind. The UFP logo is clearly inspired by the UN, of course:
I think when they showed us a 'Federation President' they were making a canonical mistake.
I think when they showed us a 'Federation President' they were making a canonical mistake.
I always saw the Federation as more of a United Nations type entity, not a governing body of any kind. The UFP logo is clearly inspired by the UN, of course:
Without a doubt - but at least during TOS the UFP was also an 'in spirit' stand-in for the USA in the original target demographic - the USA. Just look at the abbreviations: UFP = USA. Enough similarity for the casual viewer to go 'hey, it's us in space' anyway, similar to how the ship was often referred to as an Earth ship even though it was made clear rather quickly that the UFP had been around a while. Anyway, the UN was unquestionably the inspiration for the structure. We Americans don't have Ambassadors to our fellow American States after all.
On the contrary, one might argue that the Federation simply calls their equivalent of the Secretary-General a President - and IIRC the original reference was Federation Council President, a subtle but IMO rather important distinction.
3D Master
Rear Admiral
I always saw the Federation as more of a United Nations type entity, not a governing body of any kind. The UFP logo is clearly inspired by the UN, of course:
I think when they showed us a 'Federation President' they were making a canonical mistake.
The UN doesn't have its own army, aka Starfleet. The UFP always started out as a military alliance, grew into a UN, gained a navy, and then grew further into an EU and finally a US.
Welcome, Mycobac! What a well-thought-out and insightful first post.
I believe your assessment is quite fair and logical. I find your take on credits appealing, but I do wonder how workable having a unit of trade not reflective of a particular standard is? Surely there must be some means of conversion for trading with other species? Perhaps the 'lack of money' just means they don't have currency and only use some type of electronic instant payment system?
Thank you very much Praetor. Granted, my interpretation of the financial system would only apply within the Federation (and associated entities) and would be of no use in conducting business with other non-aligned powers. I think that is why we have seen many business minded humans use other forms of currency, most notably Gold Pressed Latinum, the currency of the Ferengi Alliance, capitalists par excellence.
In international (interstellar) trade I see more of a credit/barter system where goods and services are directly exchanged between the respective governments. This would be feasible in a large scale government to government exchange of relatively few commodities while it would not be workable in small scale private enterprise.
I always saw the Federation as more of a United Nations type entity, not a governing body of any kind. The UFP logo is clearly inspired by the UN, of course:
I think when they showed us a 'Federation President' they were making a canonical mistake.
I disagree with you assessment of the Federation's political structure. We have seen many instances in which the Federation showed a uniform policy and purposeful decisive action (the patently awful but clearly Federation-wide Warp 5 limit for example) which would be almost impossible to achieve in a purely voluntary, entirely consensus based system. This is clearly illustrated by the fractiousness and ineffectiveness of the current United Nations in reaching all but the most vaguely worded non-binding agreements. Even the relatively homogenous European Union finds it all but impossible to agree on a common foreign policy or reach a unanimous consensus on practically anything. Imagine if the Tellarites decided not to fight in the Dominion War or the Vulcans decided they didn't want to abide by the Khitomer Accords and decided to trade with the Romulans instead. No, it seems like, as is implied by the name, it is a federal republic (very loosely federated to be sure), but still more than an international body composed of multiple entirely independent entities. The way I see it any planet is free to secede at anytime with no negative consequences but as long as they wish to remain a part of the Federation they must accede to majority rules.
However, even if one were to view it more as a non-state UN-like entity this does not preclude having a president. As some have mentioned he could simply act in the same capacity as the UN Secretary-General and be more of a moderator or chairman with no real executive power.
The problem with that is that we've seen the President exercise real executive power. We've seen the President issue orders to Starfleet (Star Trek VI), we've seen the President determining Federation foreign policy (ST6), we've seen the President declaring martial law on a Federation Member world (DS9: "Homefront"), and we've seen the President referred to as the elected commander-in-chief of Starfleet (DS9: "Paradise Lost").
The Federation is just that: A a federation, not an alliance or IGO.
No, it was not. The President in Star Trek IV clearly identified himself in dialogue as the President of the United Federation of Planets, not the President of the Federation Council. "Council President" was how he was listed in the credits, but, there again, they also listed Uhura as "Uhuru." So the credits are obviously unreliable, especially when dialogue contradicts them.
I posted once about the US vs. UN inspirations for the UFP. Suffice it to say that the Federation possesses all of the legal traits of a state -- a mere intergovernmental organization such as the UN could not do all of the things we've seen the UFP do.
Sci said:
It could be an EU type entity, not as loose as the UN but not as unitary as the USA, a mix of intergovernmentalism and supernationalism, because the fed members seem to have far far more autonomy than a US state or German state for example, you can see why they'd have to have more autonomy.
Capitalism and socialism are two ends of the spectrum of industrialism. Both capitalism and socialism are governed by all the same guiding principles.
Marx identified the vices of capitalism and sought a solution. His mistake was that what he thought were the vices of capitalism were the vices of all industrial civilization. A century of socialism, at least state socialism, has shown us it is no less prone to reducing human beings to cold economic equations.
Lets not have a politics debate 
makes me sad, personally I come here to escape all that serious stuff.
I gotta take all this crap at work and when I come home I have to listen to more of it from you!!!
makes me sad, personally I come here to escape all that serious stuff.I gotta take all this crap at work and when I come home I have to listen to more of it from you!!!
Monetary transactions on DS9
It is clear that Quark essentially operates rent and utility free on DS9 per dialogue in "Bar Association".
Can someone jog my memory if Quark ever charges expenses to the tabs of specific officers?
If expenses are not charged to the general fund that Sisko blackmails Quark with that would be very problematic to explain.
Whatever economic model the Federation uses, it has great appeal to me so I hope replicators are invented soon.
It is clear that Quark essentially operates rent and utility free on DS9 per dialogue in "Bar Association".
Can someone jog my memory if Quark ever charges expenses to the tabs of specific officers?
If expenses are not charged to the general fund that Sisko blackmails Quark with that would be very problematic to explain.
Whatever economic model the Federation uses, it has great appeal to me so I hope replicators are invented soon.
Re: Monetary transactions on DS9
I don't think any Trek writers really thought out the economic situation of the 24th century in any detail. No culture with a replicator is going need money.
Arthur C. Clarke put talked a bit about what would happen if we invented a replicator in his book, "Profiles of the Future." Great book.
I don't think any Trek writers really thought out the economic situation of the 24th century in any detail. No culture with a replicator is going need money.
Arthur C. Clarke put talked a bit about what would happen if we invented a replicator in his book, "Profiles of the Future." Great book.
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