Is the Empire a Theocracy?

[Doctorwhovian]

Maybe it's a bit like Ford's other role, Indiana Jones-who starts each movie as a sort of skeptic of the more mystical/religious/supernatural properties of the artifacts he's after, but at the end is more of a true believer.

Although with Han he's clearly a skeptic throughout the trilogy-even in ROTJ's he's not really sure Luke can get them out of Jabba's clutches . Although that's probably because last time he saw Luke at the beginning of ESB he was still kind of inexperienced in the force-Han admits that ("I'm out of a it for a little while, everyone gets delusions of grandeur"). Although he did see a demonstration of Vader's abilities of course.

(The Legends EU of course has Han raising three Jedi, and a Jedi wife by the time of the NJO).

 

[Ithekro]

Some buy the Empire's propaganda. Others, including a older high ranking Grand Moff, knew the Jedi. Knows exactly what they coud do, and also knows "They died". As far as they are concerted the Jedi of old are dead. What they could do is not important as they are gone. Anyone else who thinks they are Jedi must be a fake. Darth Vader is the only one who is known to use the Force in any meaningful way and he's considered to be something from the old days that is barely useful compared to the modern war machine. Only to be feared if he is in charge.

The Emperor may not have been known to be a Force user, but he seems to have a reputation to be feared. When told the Emperor is coming to the Second Death Star, the Moff's tone changes from he's fear of Darth Vader to terror. He was attempting to reason with Vader on the timetable for the Death Star's completion. But when the Emperor himself is coming? "Re-double our efforts". Because as Vader says, "The Emperor is not as forgiving as I am". And given what we've seen of Vader, that is a very, very scary thought.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

Although with Han he's clearly a skeptic throughout the trilogy-even in ROTJ's he's not really sure Luke can get them out of Jabba's clutches . Although that's probably because last time he saw Luke at the beginning of ESB he was still kind of inexperienced in the force-Han admits that ("I'm out of a it for a little while, everyone gets delusions of grandeur"). Although he did see a demonstration of Vader's abilities of course.

I wonder--when Lando revealed Vader was after Luke, did he think it was just some sort of political matter--revenge against Luke for destroying the Death Star? Was he that dense?

In the novel, Leia's reaction to Lando's revelation seems to suggest she was more aware of the reality of what this all meant:

Page 174:

Han seemed puzzled. "Luke? I don't get it."
The princess's mind was racing. All the facts were beginning to fit together into a terrible mosaic. In the past, Vader had wanted her because of her political importance in the war between Empire and Rebel Alliance. Now she was almost beneath his notice, useful only for one possible function.

I doubt she thought Luke was a target exclusively for the Death Star, or his position in the Alliance. I support this by recalling that she met Luke as a companion to a legendary Jedi, eventually learning he was being trained. Additionally, pre-ROTJ, she (probably) knew the official story that Luke was the son of an unnamed murdered Jedi.

Han was just as exposed to the above details as Leia (a good three years after ANH), yet he would still fail to piece together why Vader--after Lando flatly laying out the truth--wanted Luke?

Did he just gloss over Luke's relationship to Obi-Wan, who in turn played out a final conflict against that heavy breather with only the third glow stick he's seen in recent times?

Han did not need to be a detective, but come on...

 

[arch101]

Right after ROTS, I got the impression that the early Empire ran sort of like Augustus' Rome. Palpatine made the broad strokes and big decisions, the Senate (under his guidance) handled the minutae and day-to-day stuff. After 20 years of consolidating the government and putting the right military governors in place, he was able to cut the Senate in ANH and go to direct military rule.
As for the Jedi, I always thought that they were in decline anyway. In the prequel films, they only seem to command respect from police and government people. The average citizen and especially criminals aren't afraid of them at all. This seems to only worsen throughout the Clone Wars series. I doubt if the average citizen of most worlds would even notice they were gone after the war was over. After 20 years, with all "official" records suppressed, the next generation wouldn't give a care at all.

 

[Ithekro]

Makes one wonder just how much of a poster child Anakin and Obi-wan were in the Clone Wars. With their number of victories, it would seem logical to use them in propaganda at the very least. Especially Anakin, as that would boost his ego and that is something Palpatine can use.

"Skywalker and Kenobi" I half expect there to have be some holodramas based on those two alone. Luke having the name Skywalker might ring some bells with a few people.

 

[Mr Light]

According to the ROTS novelization (which is still canon), Anakin and Obi-Wan were the movie stars of the Holo Net.

 

[Ithekro]

I sort of wish that part of the novel (as well as the lightsaber duel from Dooku's point of view) had been shown in the film. At least the part about how the war was being seen through the eyes of the children. The ones that were not in fear because they believed in Skywalker and Kenobi. The ones that would make it better because they won. They always won.

If nothing else it might have at least gotten some emotion into the film and given the general audiance a reason to care about these characters. As it was the general view seems to have cared about R2, Kenobi, and Yoda. Anakin just wasn't as cared about by the general audiance until he was in the suit.

 

[Lexx Shrapnel]

Considering the Empire's documented efforts to capture Force-sensitives, repress any knowledge of the Force, and suppression of the true nature of Palpatine's power and Sith affiliations, there is no religious element to the Empire, and indeed they could be considered to be highly anti-religious.

So in DE he came out as a Force God wannabe to his people? Also we have Inquisitors openly using the dark side.

 

[Alidar Jarok]

Makes one wonder just how much of a poster child Anakin and Obi-wan were in the Clone Wars. With their number of victories, it would seem logical to use them in propaganda at the very least. Especially Anakin, as that would boost his ego and that is something Palpatine can use.

"Skywalker and Kenobi" I half expect there to have be some holodramas based on those two alone. Luke having the name Skywalker might ring some bells with a few people.

Well, Palpatine also had his eye on the long game. If anything, he would be smart to downplay the successes of the Jedi and play up the success of his clone troops.

 

[Set Harth]

(The EU of course has many Sith empires here and there but that's all been tossed out)

And none of them ever ruled the entire galaxy, at least in terms of territory.

I sort of wish that part of the novel (as well as the lightsaber duel from Dooku's point of view) had been shown in the film. At least the part about how the war was being seen through the eyes of the children.

Not impossible, I guess, but that sounds unlikely. Especially the part about seeing the lightsaber duel from Dooku's point of view. This is just one of those areas where books have an advantage over films. To do that in the film you'd have to use a voice-over representing Dooku's thoughts and that would be somewhat jarring due to the fact that the films never do that kind of thing anywhere else.

 

[Masiral]

According to the ROTS novelization (which is still canon), Anakin and Obi-Wan were the movie stars of the Holo Net.

The novelizations are actually not canon.

 

[Set Harth]

https://mobile.twitter.com/delreystarwars/status/461579307341840384

"To clarify, movie novelizations are canon where they align with what is seen on screen in the 6 films and the Clone Wars animated movie."

 

[Reverend]

(The EU of course has many Sith empires here and there but that's all been tossed out)

And none of them ever ruled the entire galaxy, at least in terms of territory.

The one featured in SWTOR probably came the closest, but yeah, the Sith Empires in the EU were mostly just in a little corner of the galaxy.

Indeed the way things played out in the 'Golden Age of the Sith' story always bothered me. It never struck me as terribly credible that an Empire that's only seemingly spread across a handful of systems could suddenly mobilise to pull off a galaxy-wide invasion *while in the midst of an internal power struggle*! Now there's a story that could have done with a more sensibly paced retelling. Though granted you never get much indication as to how much time passes, it seems as though the whole thing was over and done with inside a year tops.

Also, the bit about the Jedi apparently committing planetary genocide in retaliation just doesn't seem consistent with their ethos.

 

[Set Harth]

I had forgotten about that and was surprised when the novel Revan mentioned it. Edit: Actually, now that I think about it that may have happened after I dropped the title, which happened fairly quickly.

I suppose we could argue the ethos of the Jedi evolved somewhat over time...

 

[Reverend]

That's not so much an evolution as a 180 degree switch. Or, as I prefer to call it: bad writing.

 

[Masiral]

https://mobile.twitter.com/delreystarwars/status/461579307341840384

"To clarify, movie novelizations are canon where they align with what is seen on screen in the 6 films and the Clone Wars animated movie."

In other words, the novelizations are not canon except for the parts that are already canon.

So Anakin and Obi-Wan being HoloNet heroes is not canon, as that does not align with what is seen on screen.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

https://mobile.twitter.com/delreystarwars/status/461579307341840384

"To clarify, movie novelizations are canon where they align with what is seen on screen in the 6 films and the Clone Wars animated movie."

In other words, the novelizations are not canon except for the parts that are already canon.

Oh dear, I've gone all cross-eyed.

 

[Dr. Funkenstein]

https://mobile.twitter.com/delreystarwars/status/461579307341840384

"To clarify, movie novelizations are canon where they align with what is seen on screen in the 6 films and the Clone Wars animated movie."

In other words, the novelizations are not canon except for the parts that are already canon.

That isn't what that says.

It says that anything that doesn't specifically break with what's been seen on screen, it's considered canon. So as long as nothing on screen contradicts something in the novels, it's canonical until such time that it does (such as in future movies or television projects).

 

[Mr Light]

So, basically the same as any other novel/comic/game

I'm reading TARKIN right now and this is a direct sequel to Darth Plageuis, which just cements my theory that all the Prequel era material is still cannon. It's only the post-ROTJ stuff that's getting wiped out.

 

[Trekker4747]

Doesn't The Empire basically -on a public face- pretty much deny that The Force exists and even on the level that they *do* acknowledge it, it's very rare and only for special people?

They don't force their population to follow in a doctrine or guidelines of The Force, it just happens to be the "religion" that the very top of The Empire's leaders follow and even their immediate lieutenants don't follow it/have it.

For a Theocracy to be a Theocracy the religion pretty much has to dominate every aspect of the government and civilization. Everyone would have to live by The Force's "rules" and people who were not Force sensitive or didn't at least believe in The Force would be outcasts if not out-right killed.

No, The Empire was not a Theocracy as we understand them.