Poll Is the Earth on the border of the Alpha and Beta Quadrants? (Yes/No)

[David cgc]

Well they should have written better dialog, because that's not what they wrote into canon.

During the Cold War, people casually referred to the United States and its allies as "the Western Hemisphere" even though most of Europe, including several NATO members, is east of the Prime Meridian. Is it real-world canon that that Prime Meridian actually ran through the border between East and West Germany (at an aggressive angle rather than pole-to-pole) and not Greenwich, since that matches up better with the canon dialog?

Navigational and cartographic conventions don't always line up conveniently with politics.

 

[Deks]

Well, the Galactic Quadrants are likely divided in response to the Human measuring system.
Since Earth its the capital of UFP, is it any surprise that SOL would would be used as a border marker for the division of the galactic quadrants?
That seems very self-centered though... since any species could (and might) use their own solar systems as similar points of reference for defining the cross sections between the quadrants.

If you wanted to make it 'fair' the line between quadrants need to be grounded in unbiased measurements (if such a premise exists).

 

[BK613]

@David cgc I'm pretty sure that the dividing line referred to would be the Iron Curtain and not the Prime Meridian. And maybe there were some isolated cases of 'Western Hemisphere' but I remember it mostly as being 'The West'.

 

[Shawnster]

Well, the Galactic Quadrants are likely divided in response to the Human measuring system.
Since Earth its the capital of UFP, is it any surprise that SOL would would be used as a border marker for the division of the galactic quadrants?
That seems very self-centered though... since any species could (and might) use their own solar systems as similar points of reference for defining the cross sections between the quadrants.

This is all well and good until it falls apart in the face of meeting new species and civilizations for the first time. Sure, the Cardassians and the Klingons and the Romulans can all agree with the Federation and come to a consensus on how to map and refer to various parts of the galaxy. They are all neighbors and have had 200+ years to sort all this out.

It's when we meet the Dominion, Kazon, Borg, or Voth that credulity is strained. There is no reason for these species to know and accept that they originate in the Gamma or Delta qudrants. They should all think their quadrant is Alpha and everyone else is from the opposite side of the galaxy.

 

[C.E. Evans]

This is all well and good until it falls apart in the face of meeting new species and civilizations for the first time. Sure, the Cardassians and the Klingons and the Romulans can all agree with the Federation and come to a consensus on how to map and refer to various parts of the galaxy. They are all neighbors and have had 200+ years to sort all this out.

It's when we meet the Dominion, Kazon, Borg, or Voth that credulity is strained. There is no reason for these species to know and accept that they originate in the Gamma or Delta qudrants. They should all think their quadrant is Alpha and everyone else is from the opposite side of the galaxy.

For all we know, the Borg may actually refer to the Delta Quadrant as "Octant 1" in their own language, but it just comes out as "Delta Quadrant" in ours. The Dominion may have heard others refer to their part of the Galaxy as the Gamma Quadrant, but that may not be at all what they call it themselves--they may not even use quadrants at all, and divide the Galaxy up by a dozen or more zones that they came up with, but their home could still come out as "Gamma Quadrant" in our translation...

 

[Deks]

This is all well and good until it falls apart in the face of meeting new species and civilizations for the first time. Sure, the Cardassians and the Klingons and the Romulans can all agree with the Federation and come to a consensus on how to map and refer to various parts of the galaxy. They are all neighbors and have had 200+ years to sort all this out.

It's when we meet the Dominion, Kazon, Borg, or Voth that credulity is strained. There is no reason for these species to know and accept that they originate in the Gamma or Delta qudrants. They should all think their quadrant is Alpha and everyone else is from the opposite side of the galaxy.

Yeah, but even the Borg refer to SOL as sector 001.
So 'somehow' everyone in the Trek Milky Way seemingly adopted Humanity's way of measuring the galaxy... which is incredulous in itself.

That's why I said that other species could also be using their own solar systems of origins as a way to divide the Milky Way into quadrants... so from say the Talaxian, Kazon, Vidiian pov, the 'alpha quadrant' would be the delta quadrant... or whichever measuring system they use.

I can see species in UFP adopting the star charts of UFP and the way humanity measures the galaxy... but I suspect there could be an in universe reason/method they used to arrive as to the conclusion that SOL would be the on the border of Alpha and Beta Quadrants (and most likely an equation was used to arrive at this calculation that doesn't really put preference of any leading species, etc.).
Its just that 'sector 001' didn't make sense that other species would consider Earth as that point of origin.

 

[at Quark's]

Yeah, but even the Borg refer to SOL as sector 001.

I'd think that's simply the result of them communicating to us using our own system (since we wouldn't know theirs, and they had assimilated ours by assimilating Picard), or the UT rendering it as such. I highly doubt the Borg would actually call it 'sector 001' when discussing it amongst themselves.

After all, we're also 'species 5618', not 'species 0001'.

 

[Tenacity]

I'd think that's simply the result of them communicating to us using our own system.

It would be like if the Borg were referring to a location on Earth using our longitude and latitude system.

 

[C.E. Evans]

It would be like if the Borg were referring to a location on Earth using our longitude and latitude system.

Only because that's the way the Universal Translator converts their language into ours, IMO. Conversely, the UT would take references in our language and translate it into theirs. We say "East New York" and the coordinates that go with it, but they hear something that's totally unintelligible to us, but is understandable to them.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

Well, the Galactic Quadrants are likely divided in response to the Human measuring system.
Since Earth its the capital of UFP, is it any surprise that SOL would would be used as a border marker for the division of the galactic quadrants?
That seems very self-centered though... since any species could (and might) use their own solar systems as similar points of reference for defining the cross sections between the quadrants.

If you wanted to make it 'fair' the line between quadrants need to be grounded in unbiased measurements (if such a premise exists).

Unlike the Galactic Z=0 Virtual Up/Dn Plane using 3D Cartesian Coordinates that can slice along the center of the "Thin Disk section" of the Milky Way and run through the center SMBH of each Galaxy and can probably be measured fairly accurately & consistently.

Spoiler: (NOTE: Not to Scale) Thin Disk section of a Galaxy.

The axis that you declare as 0 will probably be like the Prime Meridian, completely arbitrary.
So one Species Alpha Quadrant might not be aligned with what we call the Alpha Quadrant.
This is assuming they use a Cartesian like system for 3D spacial mapping.

Spoiler: 3D Cartesian Coordinates

Humanity just got there first with the UFP and since we're a core founding member world who is the Glue between species, we got many people to agree with using "Sol's" Center Point of the Star's wobble as the anchor point for the axis.

 

[The Wormhole]

One thing I really like about the 32nd Century is that Earth wasn't part of it (until the very end of DSC Season 4) and the Federation has resituated itself beyond Earth.

Although, even without Earth as a member world, humanity still seems to dominate the Federation in the 32nd century. Starfleet is still comprised of a majority of human officers, Starfleet's chief of staff is human, the holograms we see are modelled to look human, the Federation President is part human, and the enigmatic guy who holds everything together is probably human.

 

[Citiprime]

Earth, Vulcan, Andor, and Taler don't make up the entire galaxy. I'm sure the Cardassians and the Klingons didn't give a shit about all four of those powers fighting the Romulans. After the Romulan War, when the Federation is actually founded maybe, but not during, when it looks like four separate powers that could go their own way at any point. Even after the Federation is founded, it's an upstart, and those outside of it wouldn't agree to changing how the Galaxy is mapped out to accommodate them.

It works better if there was some type of galactic agreement long before Earth or any of those other powers came into the interstellar picture, but it would be something they all went by anyway as they all became spacefaring. Because if you're dealing with aliens in space, you have to use the most common lingo so everyone has a common frame-of-reference. The 22nd Century isn't "early days" for everyone else, it's only "early days" for Earth and the Federation.

By the 24th century, when the terms/divisions of the Alpha and Gamma Quadrant are being thrown around, both the Klingon and Cardassians have made agreements with the Federation. As part of the Khitomer Accords and the Cardassian Peace Treaty, standardization of geographical markers and divisions might have been part of those agreements.

Also, the standardization of how the Milky Way is divided and referred to could have been part of the Treaty of Algeron with the Romulans. When they were throwing in restrictions on us using cloaking tech, we could have been more concerned about drawing borders and having the human standard for recognizing the divisions of space being the basis for any agreement.

It's not without precedent that the victors of a war lay out the standards of how we interpret issues. The Allies from World War II basically did that post-war when it comes to multiple standards of international law.

Or, on the other end, everyone could've had their own definition of a quadrant, until all the established galactic powers agree to a standardized system after the TOS Movies but before TNG. By this point, the Federation isn't some scrappy upstart, and it's dealing with a lot more of the galaxy.

The Undiscovered Country floats the idea that the Klingons might have to be given "safe haven" within Federation space after the destruction of Praxis and the possible inhabitability of Qo'Nos. So it's conceivable that because of the Khitomer Accords a chunk of the Klingon Empire exists within the Alpha Quadrant post-Khitomer as part of some sort of territorial concession that paved the way for peace and the alliance.

 

[Citiprime]

Interesting to note... a map shown in Discovery moves the line between the Alpha/Beta Quadrants where it does NOT go directly through Sol.

Per Memory Alpha:

Graphics used in Star Trek: Discovery and the alternate reality films support this, where the Alpha/Beta Quadrant border is moved one sector "west" and a star chart graphic used in Star Trek Into Darkness had the label "Alpha Quadrant" near Sector 01 (Level 3-B), which contains Earth.​

 

[Mister Spock]

How big is a quadrant?

I wouldn't go so far as to call a brother big, I mean he got a weight problem.

 

[Parallaxis]

Interesting to note... a map shown in Discovery moves the line between the Alpha/Beta Quadrants where it does NOT go directly through Sol.

Per Memory Alpha:

Graphics used in Star Trek: Discovery and the alternate reality films support this, where the Alpha/Beta Quadrant border is moved one sector "west" and a star chart graphic used in Star Trek Into Darkness had the label "Alpha Quadrant" near Sector 01 (Level 3-B), which contains Earth.​

I was going to praise Discovery for doing something right, but putting the Klingon Empire in the Beta Quadrant is stupid and isn't supported by ANY onscreen dialog. The Klingons and Romulans are Alpha Quadrant species. This is backed up in both DS9 and VOY. The Alpha Quadrant is unbelievable huge. I don't think most of these map makers really understand the scale they're dealing with.

 

[Parallaxis]

Voyager on-screen map. Earth is in the middle of the Alpha Quadrant. The only place where it makes logical sense for it to be.

 

[Lord Garth]

I was going to praise Discovery for doing something right, but putting the Klingon Empire in the Beta Quadrant is stupid and isn't supported by ANY onscreen dialog. The Klingons and Romulans are Alpha Quadrant species. This is backed up in both DS9 and VOY. The Alpha Quadrant is unbelievable huge. I don't think most of these map makers really understand the scale they're dealing with.

I strongly suspect they're going by what was established in TUC. That movie implies the Klingon Empire and Camp Khitomer are in the Beta Quadrant.

Normally, I would say to disregard what TOS and the TOS Movies say on this matter, which I did upthread, but since both early-DSC and TUC are in the 23rd Century, how the quadrants were split up could've changed between TUC/DSC and TNG/DS9/VOY.

Not that I agree with it, because I think having Earth at the AQ/BQ border is stupid, and how quadrants were referred to meant something else in TOS (they were more like sectors) but I can see the reasoning they were using, wanting to be consistent with TUC. I think DSC was following TUC's lead. I just think TUC is wrong because the creators misunderstood the system that had been set up in TNG by that point.

 

[Lord Garth]

Although, even without Earth as a member world, humanity still seems to dominate the Federation in the 32nd century. Starfleet is still comprised of a majority of human officers, Starfleet's chief of staff is human, the holograms we see are modelled to look human, the Federation President is part human, and the enigmatic guy who holds everything together is probably human.

Baby steps.

 

[Shawnster]

I was going to praise Discovery for doing something right, but putting the Klingon Empire in the Beta Quadrant is stupid and isn't supported by ANY onscreen dialog. The Klingons and Romulans are Alpha Quadrant species. This is backed up in both DS9 and VOY. The Alpha Quadrant is unbelievable huge. I don't think most of these map makers really understand the scale they're dealing with.

Actually, they do. The whole point is to justify the Enterprise being "the only ship in the quadrant". It's the powers that be that ultimately directed or approved of the quadrant border running through the Sol system.

What others justification can make the Enterprise be the only Starfleet vessel in literally 1/4 of the galaxy? Of course, it doesn't make any sense the Enterprise would be the only ship in either quadrant.

As far as size, in Star Trek each quadrant appears to be 1/4 of the galaxy.

I was surprised to learn astronomers really do divide the Milky Way into quadrants with our solar system at the center of all 4 quadrants.

When describing their observations, astronomers divide the Milky Way into quadrants, with our sun at the center. Using that convention, we have traced spiral arms in the first three quadrants. To complete the map in the fourth quadrant, we need observations from the Southern Hemisphere.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/...ons, astronomers,in the first three quadrants

In actual astronomical practice, the delineation of the galactic quadrants is based upon the galactic coordinate system, which places the Sun as the pole of the mapping system. The Sun is used instead of the Galactic Center for practical reasons since all astronomical observations (by humans) to date have been based on Earth or within the Solar System.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galactic_quadrant

 

[C.E. Evans]

Actually, they do. The whole point is to justify the Enterprise being "the only ship in the quadrant". It's the powers that be that ultimately directed or approved of the quadrant border running through the Sol system.

What others justification can make the Enterprise be the only Starfleet vessel in literally 1/4 of the galaxy? Of course, it doesn't make any sense the Enterprise would be the only ship in either quadrant.

For quite awhile now, I've looked at the term "the only ship in the quadrant" as being a colloquialism or straight out exaggeration to describe a ship that was the only one in timely range of a particular destination.

A case could possibly be made, though, that the Galaxy was considered so big back in TOS that even sectors and even smaller still divisions of space were also divided into quadrants. In such a scenario, "Quadrant" (with an uppercase Q) referred to any of the four galactic quadrants, but maybe "quadrant" (with a lowercase q) referred to many non-galactic quadrants.