Is the Doctor every Time Lord ever?

[Timofnine]

Well, the title says it all…

Of course, the Doctor only had 12 regenerations originally, but now that the cap has been broken and we know that the Doctor has had many more long forgotten past unknown regenerations, could a whole chain reaction have been put in to motion which leads to the Doctor infinitely regenerating and over millennia forgetting who he/she actually was/is? All of these future (and past) regenerations could take on unique identities including those of characters that we have already met in the series such as Rassilon, Romana, Valyard, Morbius, Omega(?) and the Master etc. etc?

Maybe the Time Lords are one big collective/disconnected consciousness, but they just don’t realise it?

Perhaps that’s why the Dalek’s wiped out the Time Lords in the time war? Only the Doctor survived, but infinite regenerations repopulated the species? The original limited regenerations may have been some form of ‘birth control’?

Maybe Time Lord’s can’t have babies and regenerate like Tribbles instead?

Something similar may have already been explained in an episode, I’ve not watched Doctor Who since Capaldi left the role.

Could every Time Lord/Lady be a an infinity split parallel universe version of ‘the Doctor’ or whoever he/she originally was?

 

[matthunter]

Well, technically every Time Lord/Lady has some of the Doctor's genetic material in that they used the Timeless Child to give themselves regeneration.

But it's always been pretty clear that the "core" of the Doctor stays the same through regeneration. So dramatic personality shifts are unlikely.

As for the "Time Lords can't have babies" idea, check out the Cartmel Masterplan and the concept of Looms... basically, virtually all Gallifreyans were rendered sterile by an ancient psychic curse from a religious figure who disagreed with Rassilon's reforms. He then "invented" regeneration (in the novels, adapted it from the DNA of the Great Vampires) as a stopgap to prevent the race dying whilst he sought a cure.

The Looms exploited a loophole in the curse - no child shall be born on Gallifrey - by taking DNA strands from a source repository, juggling them about and recombining them and producing (or weaving, hence the name) a full-grown new Gallifreyan. Very similar to what happened to create Jenny in The Doctor's Daughter, except that used only one donor source.

The Masterplan would have revealed that the Doctor was the reincarnation (not regeneration) of a legendary Time Lord figure ("The Other") who worked with Rassilon and Omega. In the novels, when Rassilon turned against him, The Other threw himself into one of these genetic Looms and disintegrated. However, his DNA was eventually fully recombined 100% (a freak occurrence) during the Looming of the Doctor.

 

[Timewalker]

I am so glad I gave up on this show before it went past boring straight to outright nonsense.

Thank goodness Classic Who makes sense.

 

[Timofnine]

Well, technically every Time Lord/Lady has some of the Doctor's genetic material in that they used the Timeless Child to give themselves regeneration.

But it's always been pretty clear that the "core" of the Doctor stays the same through regeneration. So dramatic personality shifts are unlikely.

As for the "Time Lords can't have babies" idea, check out the Cartmel Masterplan and the concept of Looms... basically, virtually all Gallifreyans were rendered sterile by an ancient psychic curse from a religious figure who disagreed with Rassilon's reforms. He then "invented" regeneration (in the novels, adapted it from the DNA of the Great Vampires) as a stopgap to prevent the race dying whilst he sought a cure.

The Looms exploited a loophole in the curse - no child shall be born on Gallifrey - by taking DNA strands from a source repository, juggling them about and recombining them and producing (or weaving, hence the name) a full-grown new Gallifreyan. Very similar to what happened to create Jenny in The Doctor's Daughter, except that used only one donor source.

The Masterplan would have revealed that the Doctor was the reincarnation (not regeneration) of a legendary Time Lord figure ("The Other") who worked with Rassilon and Omega. In the novels, when Rassilon turned against him, The Other threw himself into one of these genetic Looms and disintegrated. However, his DNA was eventually fully recombined 100% (a freak occurrence) during the Looming of the Doctor.

I don’t know anything about the Timeless Child… I might just bite the bullet and give Jodie’s tenure a binge watch.

 

[The Nth Doctor]

I am so glad I gave up on this show before it went past boring straight to outright nonsense.

Thank goodness Classic Who makes sense.

Yup, the classic series never had any nonsense!

 

[Timofnine]

Yup, the classic series never had any nonsense!

Classic Doctor Who always made perfect sense to me… the only nonsense that I can think of from TOS Who are the giant maggots living under a nuclear power plant, that’s about as far fetched as you can get! Aliens are quite acceptable, so is a time travelling, inter dimensional shape shifting box which is bigger on the inside than the outside… but giant radioactive maggots??? PULL THE OTHER ONE!!!

The past few years of Doctor Who is almost as if the creative staff have never seen Doctor Who through the eyes of being a child and genuinely LOVING and growing up with it. They try to trick us though by throwing in past references and characters… but we can tell that they are only doing it for the money, production credits and CV reference for their next big television gig.

 

[matthunter]

I don’t know anything about the Timeless Child… I might just bite the bullet and give Jodie’s tenure a binge watch.
View attachment 27303

Umm. You seem to know a bit:

and we know that the Doctor has had many more long forgotten past unknown regenerations

I assumed you'd been reading enough spoilers to know the basics of the Chibber's arc. Apologies if not and I've spoiled stuff for you.

 

[The Nth Doctor]

The past few years of Doctor Who is almost as if the creative staff have never seen Doctor Who through the eyes of being a child and genuinely LOVING and growing up with it. They try to trick us though by throwing in past references and characters… but we can tell that they are only doing it for the money, production credits and CV reference for their next big television gig.

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[Mr. Laser Beam]

This reminds me of some sci-fi novel (can't remember the title) in which a guy dies and ends up in some kind of afterlife in which he is told that there is only one human being, who is/was/will be reincarnated as literally every living soul that has ever existed, or ever will exist, on Earth.

Didn't make sense then, doesn't make sense here.

srsly, no, I never got the vibe that the Doctor was every Time Lord ever. Sometimes the show seems to imply that he's the only important one, but not the ONLY one.

 

[Timofnine]

Umm. You seem to know a bit:



I assumed you'd been reading enough spoilers to know the basics of the Chibber's arc. Apologies if not and I've spoiled stuff for you.

I watched the first three episodes of Jodie Who, then tried to watch the episode where the Master returned. It wasn’t working for me.

I don’t know much, just my fan fiction like speculation based on The Brain of Morbius, the War Doctor, the unexpected third female Doctor and the fact that Matt Smith regenerated past 12 (well, I’m still not sure if David Tennant’s regeneration back in to himself is included or not? Was that ever clarified?). Oh, and Joanna Lumley and Hugh Grant…

 

[Timewalker]

Yup, the classic series never had any nonsense!

There's a difference between nonsense and NO sense. Of course Classic Who wasn't perfect. There were companions I hated, stories I didn't like, some things that were exasperating, and so on.

I loved Paul McGann's portrayal of the Doctor, but hated the movie's plot. I enjoyed Eric Roberts in other things, but he ruined the movie.

NuWho... I gave it a chance. The last time I genuinely enjoyed it was during Tenant's run. After that... Matt Smith was awful, and while I liked Capaldi's portrayal, the stories were so dumbed down that it was a chore to watch them and not wish for the show to be canceled so as to stop them from constantly insulting the viewers as to how much stupidity they thought we'd enjoy. The final straw was Clara The Disgustingly Arrogant Immortal Companion Who Would Not Die. She could have had a great death scene... if she'd actually stayed dead. The only reason I watched that story was because I knew she was going to finally die in it and I wanted to watch that. But it was just another GOTCHA! to the audience. So other than the Christmas special, I gave up. I haven't seen any of it since, and don't regret it. I don't care who takes over after Jodie Whittaker as I never watched Capaldi's final season, never watched any of Whittaker's shows at all, and I just don't care anymore.

Well, okay, I do care that the show I loved for nearly 40 years was ruined by shitty writing and an abominable actress (Jenna Colman). Every time I pop in here out of curiosity to see if anything's actually improved... nope, doesn't sound like it. It just gets worse, like nuWho has become like nuDune. Every time inferior writers write themselves into a corner, they bring out some other childish, stupid thing they expect the audience to love.

The best Who stories raise an issue and make people think about it. Like Genesis of the Daleks, when the Doctor has the power to prevent the Daleks from ever existing (the mission the Time Lords sent him to Skaro to do) and he hesitates, wondering if he has the moral right to commit genocide before a species actually gets the chance to exist before they're programmed to kill.

I don’t know much, just my fan fiction like speculation based on The Brain of Morbius, the War Doctor, the unexpected third female Doctor and the fact that Matt Smith regenerated past 12 (well, I’m still not sure if David Tennant’s regeneration back in to himself is included or not? Was that ever clarified?). Oh, and Joanna Lumley and Hugh Grant…

In The Brain of Morbius, my take is that the Doctor is projecting other Time Lords he's known, trying to confuse the issue. We already know Hartnell was the First Doctor, so the writers need to come up with some other explanation.

As for the Lumley & Grant video... it's cute. Rowan Atkinson would have made a Doctor whose sarcasm would have rivalled Colin Baker's era.

I still maintain Paul McGann was robbed. He should have had his chance at a TV run, and the fact that he nailed the part in the Night of the Doctor webisode 17 years after he nailed it in the TV movie bears this out.

 

[Redfern]

This reminds me of some sci-fi novel (can't remember the title) in which a guy dies and ends up in some kind of afterlife in which he is told that there is only one human being, who is/was/will be reincarnated as literally every living soul that has ever existed, or ever will exist, on Earth.

You're thinking of "The Egg" written by Andy Weir and originally published online in 2009

It has been adapted into visual and audio media by type a few creative teams. I discovered it through the Kuzgesagt YouTube channel and I consider it one of the most distinctive versions.

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[Timofnine]

Ugh, are there no fresh ideas left on this planet (egg?) that someone has not already thought of any more? This egg story would have been similar to my universal Tribble like Time Lord mythology storyline head canon! After watching this video, the ‘God’ figure could have been Omega, Rassilon or the Other (maybe?), a Time Lord(s) who had already ascended/transcended. Or perhaps he meets none of them, maybe the Doctor meets ‘itself’ and becomes ‘guardian of all time and space, all past and future regenerations and reincarnations’, fulfilling the job of the God like figure in this short video eventually… a few levels up from the Curator turning in to the Creator? I’m thinking this egg story concept on a universal level and scale rather than it being a bottle show set on only Earth because of a tight production budget…

Of course, no transcended Time Lord could have the same universe to mature in, therefore multiverses would be required to give each ‘God’ like consciousness their final ascension with their own unique set of experiences, regenerations and reincarnations.

Then there is the whole question of how these universes are made? holographic projections? Advanced computer simulations? Could the software or ‘engine’ running such a system become corrupted or manipulated externally beyond the control of the being that it was nurturing in to ‘transcendence’?

Would all universes balance out in such a situation? Or could one universe become twisted and distorted in a perceptively ‘evil’ way? Would this result in the final transcendence of a malevolent guiding entity at the end of the line rather than a benevolent one? Or do things always balance out for the best according to nature in the end, hence this being the whole point of the reincarnation/regeneration experience? Learning until perfection of mind, consciousness and soul can be achieved, so that ‘the Doctor’ can take it’s place on the cosmos’ ‘Captain’s/Time Lords top table’?

Coincidentally, speaking of eggs…

A universal intergalactic wreath of cosmic eggs! Each one nurturing a new transcendence in to omnipotence and pure Time Lord consciousness!

 

[Starkers]

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Yeah given all three modern showrunners have been incredibly huge Doctor Who fans since childhood that's a really odd take. I suspect post Broadchurch Chibnall had bigger offers on the table to be honest. And let us not forget Moffat gave up working with Spielberg to take on the Doctor Who gig!

 

[Qonundrum]

Thank goodness Classic Who makes sense.

By comparison... and most of the time, but even Classic's dumbest moments (such as a bomb that metamorphoses a person into a tree -- which was okay UNTIL a later scene revealed it could move its limbs like arms to save someone on cue, which was definitely cringe) can't hold a candle to the stupid forest, moon spider eggs, etc, etc...

Yeah given all three modern showrunners have been incredibly huge Doctor Who fans since childhood that's a really odd take. I suspect post Broadchurch Chibnall had bigger offers on the table to be honest. And let us not forget Moffat gave up working with Spielberg to take on the Doctor Who gig!

Nicholas Meyer wasn't a fan of Trek until he sat through the episodes to find movie plot and character fodder. Maybe the show needs someone new, who'll sit through a few examples of each Doctor, and if they warm to the show with genuinely fresh ideas then do a proof of concept/pilot episode written or something that's actually encouraging as well as forward-moving again. Even JMS would have been a great example, come to mention it... But fans for fans sake isn't always great and even RTD's era did not win over all Classic fans... Nor Moffat's... Nor Chibnall's, Yet the myth is that a fan making the show will somehow keep all fans from when they gr-- ugh. It's all getting ridiculous. )

 

[Starkers]

I'm not even sure what a modern take on the classic era would look like, or whether it'd sink without a trace. Hate to be that guy but the show doesn't need to win over/win back classic fans. It needs to win back the fans who came on board in 2005, and it it needs to reach out to a whole new generation. That's the sad thing about the Chibnall era. 10 million people* watched Whittaker's debut, I know friends whose kids really took to Jodie, one little girl who became a huge fan overnight because of Whittaker, but even she seems ambivalent about the show now. (*and yes a lot of them were probably just curious about a female Doctor, but still they were engaged, they were there for the taking and Chibnall gave them a bunch of largely dull episodes which drove many away)

I wouldn't have been opposed to a non-fan showrunner coming in, though they'd have to have some concept of the show and work with people who do understand the history of the show, but yes new ideas would be good (though when Moffat, Chibnall and even RTD tried to do something a little different it often went down like a cup of cold sick!)

 

[matthunter]

The sad truth is that a lot of fans do just prefer straightforward plots where the Doctor saves us from the monsters. Moffatt wowed some with all the timey-wimey stuff but others found it quite confusing. My Mum couldn't follow Time of the Doctor because it called back to stuff that hadn't been mentioned for over a series (the Church splitting into Kovarian's faction). Even insisted "I've never heard about a Church!". I had to break out the blu-rays and show her The Time of Angels and A Good Man Goes To War.

She's not senile, but expecting average watchers to follow plotlines across series without "Previously On..." type stuff is asking a bit much. Chibnall went with his preferred "the real enemy is us/our own fears" approach in Jodie's first series, which leaves the Doctor either with no villain to attack or comes off as preachy. Then he went for bad guys but introduced the Timeless Child stuff - which I actually like but understandably pisses some off AND confuses those who like non-convoluted plots.

His most-liked stories stick very closely to the Stop The Monsters formula - see the Xmas/New Year Dalek stories (Eve didn't impress Mum, due to the time loop angle making it confusing) and War of the Sontarans.

Legend of the Sea Devils had scope to do so as well, but suffered from being heavily retooled and rushed.

 

[Starkers]

Moffat clearly squashed too much into Time of the Doctor as it was Matt's finale.

 

[Timewalker]

I'm not even sure what a modern take on the classic era would look like, or whether it'd sink without a trace. Hate to be that guy but the show doesn't need to win over/win back classic fans.

So the Classic fans can go to hell. Fine. I've got most of the DVDs, most of the Target novels, some of the original novels, a box of print 'zines, the web address for several fanfic sites, and my own imagination. I've got a couple of Classic Who crossovers on the go - one between Who and Dragonlance, and the other between Who and The Borgias.

I'll confess to a third crossover in mind - Tennant Era Doctor crossed with Downton Abbey. Considering that Penelope Keith played Isobel Crawley and Harriet Jones, plus David Tennant and Maggie Smith were both in Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire, it's too tempting to pass up, writing a combination like that.

 

[F. King Daniel]

The Doctor Who Folded Himself