Is the doctor a real person?

[hux]

I mean c'mon

Do we really think that the Federation would humour this kind of nonsense. The implications would be enormous. It's all very well accepting that Data is a unique life form with rights but Data has a much better and more convincing case. Holograms are ten a penny so giving them all equality is simply asking for trouble

First of all you would instantly be left with the dilemma of creating more holograms or not. If you do then you're basically just creating more sentient life with rights (so why bother) if you don't then an extremely useful and easily accessible technology is being utterly wasted

Secondly, the simple argument remains......The doctor can be reprogrammed. Nothing about him is genuine. It is all entirely manufactured

Kes can bang on all day about how he's developed a personality, a sense of humour, interests, hobbies but so what. All of that can simple be deleted or changed

There's no way in the world the federation are gonna allow this nonsense. The implications are way too huge? As far as I'm concerned, as soon as Voyager gets back, he has a little accident and gets reset back to factory setting (the Endgame reality that admiral Janeway came from doesn't suggest this but hey, if she can screw the future for humans, she can screw it for the doctor too)

 

[Captain Kathryn]

Humans are basically complex computers when you think about it.

Regardless of how he was created and who created him, he was sentient.

 

[Dobian]

Well it comes down to what constitutes self-awareness. An A.I. has to be able to willfully override its own code and make decisions and actions based on its own observations and evaluations. When given three options for dealing with a certain situation, it needs to be able to go to option four or five, with option five being completely illogical but chosen anyway because it appealed to the A.I. I'm not sure how you prove that an A.I. is sentient. I think a part of it has to do with a mind being part of a self-contained system, with the system dependent on the decisions and actions of the mind. The basic functions for survival - eating, sleeping, breathing, reproducing, reflex response, etc. - might be hardwired, but the rest is just a sandbox, with the mind controlling every action taken. So I don't think the Doctor is truly real or alive, but obviously in the Star Trek universe they want you to think he is.

 

[Bry_Sinclair]

The EMH is a tool.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ So was Mr. Paris.

 

[Captain Kathryn]

I think calling him a tool is a bit short-sided. If that was all he was supposed to be then they shouldn't have given him the ability to evolve and develop.

 

[Orphalesion]

The EMH is a tool.

Agreed. He is, in all possible senses of the word.

However this is quite a difficult topic, he could be sentient, or he could simulate sentience add to that the fact that the crew might have simply anthropomorphized him just like some might develop a relationship with their car or computer.

Why should the Doctor count as sentient and Michael Sullivan not? Michael displayed evidence of creative thinking and deduction when he came up with the theory that Janeway is of the "Fair Folk"

Alo I always found it silly that they made the other EMHs work in a mine instead of just throwing them away.

 

[22 Stars]

'a real person' is a bit vague. He is not a real Humanperson. Is he a real Holographic person? sure. Just like Data is a real Android person.

 

[Catarina]

Not a real person by that literal definition. But the crew interacts , allow him gender to make changes to his program, make decisions. I think the emh should be respected. But only on a fictional show. In the real world it could be dangerous given the flaw of man.

 

[hux]

Humans are basically complex computers when you think about it.

Regardless of how he was created and who created him, he was sentient.

But that means "every" hologram has the potential to be sentient therefore you've got a serious ethical dilemma regarding their existence and continued use. The implications are that all holographic life is capable of being sentient (entirely depends on the programming) therefore all holographic programming results in.....logical conclusion.......slavery (therefore their use must be ended)

Well it comes down to what constitutes self awareness .

Indeed but first lets assume he is self aware, sentient....where will that lead for all holographic technology

Alo I always found it silly that they made the other EMHs work in a mine instead of just throwing them away.

Hence the dilemma......either those miners are slaves (as the episodes suggests) or the technology must naturally be ended (if it continues then sentience is always a possibility and therefore slavery is always a possibility)

'a real person' is a bit vague. He is not a real Humanperson. Is he a real Holographic person? sure. Just like Data is a real Android person.

I'm talking about citizenship and rights. Is the doctors (and therefore all holographic technology) genuinely capable of sentience, freethought, sapience (whatever you want to call it) and if so, what are the implications (surely they are massive) surely they would produce an enormous moral problem for the Federation (one which I personally don't think they would even allow to happen.....the doctor would have been dealt with as soon as Voyager got home)

Not a real person by that literal definition. But the crew interacts , allow him gender to make changes to his program, make decisions. I think the emh should be respected. But only on a fictional show. In the real world it could be dangerous given the flaw of man.

But what about all those miner EMH's......at what point do we accept they have their rights and at what point does holographic sentience cease to be a technological aid and instead become a huge problematic ethical dilemma for the Federation

 

[at Quark's]

I mean c'mon

Do we really think that the Federation would humour this kind of nonsense. The implications would be enormous. It's all very well accepting that Data is a unique life form with rights but Data has a much better and more convincing case. Holograms are ten a penny so giving them all equality is simply asking for trouble

We are told Data is unique because he has a 'positronic brain' that to date, no one has been able to duplicate. But it's not imaginary at all that one day someone would succeed and constructing other Data's would become a relatively easy endeavour, so that Data becomes perhaps not 'ten a penny', but 'ten a grand'. We also know that Data has been extended, if not full civil rights, at least part of them (i.e. protection against being treated as Starfleet property). Now, supposing that he would become easy to manufacture in large numbers, would Data would lose his rights ? I don't think so, as that would amount to slavery (which is precisely the argument made in 'measure of a man').

First of all you would instantly be left with the dilemma of creating more holograms or not. If you do then you're basically just creating more sentient life with rights (so why bother) if you don't then an extremely useful and easily accessible technology is being utterly wasted

Not necessarily. There could be a large difference between a hologram and a sentient hologram. It's very well possible that you can still can program holographic 'tools' without adding any software that could augment itself and eventually develop sentience, while at the same time allowing sentient holograms with such programming to exist. For example, the enterprise main computer certainly seems to have the computational resources -but not the programming- to become sentient (see Moriarty, who runs on the Enterprise computer), yet they keep using it as a tool.

Secondly, the simple argument remains......The doctor can be reprogrammed. Nothing about him is genuine. It is all entirely manufactured

Kes can bang on all day about how he's developed a personality, a sense of humour, interests, hobbies but so what. All of that can simple be deleted or changed

So ? The same is true for Data (except that some stuff is hardcoded into him 'and cannot be forcibly removed' (I fail to see how that would work by the way)).

The same even can be said about humans. Even though we cannot (yet) really 'reprogram' people, there is enough evidence of humans having an altered personality after suffering brain damage or even after intentional stimulation of some parts of the brain. Not to sound cynical, but you could probably 'delete' or change my hobbies if only you knew exactly how to influence (or operate on) my brain.

As long as one can't make it at least strongly plausible that humans have something like an immortal 'spirit' or 'soul', I really wouldn't see any fundamental difference between a human and Data or a truly sentient program (whatever that may mean exacty) running in a sufficiently advanced computer and visualised by a hologram.

That doesn't mean that the respect, protection and basic rights accorded to a sentient entity should be diminished, by the way.

There's no way in the world the federation are gonna allow this nonsense. The implications are way too huge? As far as I'm concerned, as soon as Voyager gets back, he has a little accident and gets reset back to factory setting (the Endgame reality that admiral Janeway came from doesn't suggest this but hey, if she can screw the future for humans, she can screw it for the doctor too)

Perhaps the Federation could learn a lesson from the EMH project. They created the EMH as an adaptive program, capable of learning and becoming better in his work. But perhaps they gave him 'too much' of that adaptive programming, allowing himself to become sentient. Perhaps it's a question of finding exactly the right amount to have a tool that can self-improve, yet never attain sentience.

I'd like to know what the dividing line is. Considering that a command as simple as 'create an adversary capable of defeating Data' is enough for the computer to create a sentient hologram, yet the computer that creates Moriarty does not become sentient itself by that command...

 

[iguana_tonante]

Of course he's not a real person. He's a character in a tv show. Some Robert Picardo guy plays him. I mean, duh!

 

[sonak]

From a realistic perspective, I don't see how a fully programmed hologram like the EMH could become a self-aware "person." He'd be little more than a highly complex video game character or chess computer. Data and Lore were at least designed to be self-aware.

From an in-universe perspective however, the EMH on Voyager certainly seemed to show the traits of full personhood, with a personality and desires that developed and changed.

 

[borgboy]

The Doctor was sentient, but it's difficult to draw a line and say at what point he achieved sentience.
I thought this brought up a whole host of moral issues that were never properly resolved. I'd think it would be morally questionable to use any complex hologram that's capable of learning. I'd think there'd be real danger of sentient holograms being created and enslaved.
One thing I love about Kes is how she completely accepted the Doctor as a person. It was in large part because of her innocence and ignorance about holograms, but ultimately she was a very accepting person who would give any being the benefit of the doubt and treat them well.
It is interesting how the Doctor is one of the most well developed and fascinating characters on the show, yet his sentience is still debatable.

 

[kirkfan]

I mean c'mon

Do we really think that the Federation would humour this kind of nonsense. The implications would be enormous. It's all very well accepting that Data is a unique life form with rights but Data has a much better and more convincing case. Holograms are ten a penny so giving them all equality is simply asking for trouble

First of all you would instantly be left with the dilemma of creating more holograms or not. If you do then you're basically just creating more sentient life with rights (so why bother) if you don't then an extremely useful and easily accessible technology is being utterly wasted

Secondly, the simple argument remains......The doctor can be reprogrammed. Nothing about him is genuine. It is all entirely manufactured

Kes can bang on all day about how he's developed a personality, a sense of humour, interests, hobbies but so what. All of that can simple be deleted or changed

There's no way in the world the federation are gonna allow this nonsense. The implications are way too huge? As far as I'm concerned, as soon as Voyager gets back, he has a little accident and gets reset back to factory setting (the Endgame reality that admiral Janeway came from doesn't suggest this but hey, if she can screw the future for humans, she can screw it for the doctor too)

I think both Data and the doctor represent extremely unlikely developments of technological evolution but so does the transporter and a few other things. So no big shock there.

These are entertaining stories but not really things that you have to worry about.

 

[Sparkle Fabulosa]

The Doctor may not be made of flesh and blood but he has a real personality, thoughts, and feelings like everyone else. He may have been programmed but he went beyond his capabilities to become more human. He is technically made of light but his mind is human. For that reason, I'd say he is a real person.

 

[hux]

Now, supposing that he would become easy to manufacture in large numbers, would Data would lose his rights ? I don't think so, as that would amount to slavery (which is precisely the argument made in 'measure of a man').

But we know manufacturing Data in large numbers would be extremely difficult so it's very easy to say......"we would treat all Data's as equals" (safe in the knowledge that this statement would never require testing) projecting an advanced computer into a room is a different matter

Not necessarily. There could be a large difference between a hologram and a sentient hologram. It's very well possible that you can still can program holographic 'tools' without adding any software that could augment itself and eventually develop sentience, while at the same time allowing sentient holograms with such programming to exist.

But if just "one" hologram has rights and freedoms (and cares about his origins) then It would be very easy for him to say "any" hologram is capable of being sentient therefore any hologram that doesn't possess those rights is being enslaved (and by the very action of programming the hologram to be nothing more than a basic tool, you are enslaving the hologram) since it is capable of being more than a basic tool......that's the dilemma...that's why you are opening a huge can of worms

The same even can be said about humans. Even though we cannot (yet) really 'reprogram' people, there is enough evidence of humans having an altered personality after suffering brain damage or even after intentional stimulation of some parts of the brain. Not to sound cynical, but you could probably 'delete' or change my hobbies if only you knew exactly how to influence (or operate on) my brain.

But again, similar to Data, we are significantly more complex. The ease with which Starfleet can produce holograms makes the ethical dilemma significantly more immediate and certainly more troublesome

Perhaps the Federation could learn a lesson from the EMH project. They created the EMH as an adaptive program, capable of learning and becoming better in his work. But perhaps they gave him 'too much' of that adaptive programming, allowing himself to become sentient. Perhaps it's a question of finding exactly the right amount to have a tool that can self-improve, yet never attain sentience.

But all the other EMH's have been sent down the mines. This action demonstrably proves that the Federation/Starfleet have no respect for an EMH's ability to learn or develop. The doctor will provide them with a massive problem which I simply don't think they'll be willing to deal with (reset him as soon as possible will be their mantra)

The Doctor may not be made of flesh and blood but he has a real personality, thoughts, and feelings like everyone else. He may have been programmed but he went beyond his capabilities to become more human. He is technically made of light but his mind is human. For that reason, I'd say he is a real person.

I wouldn't disagree

But if that's all true then the implications for holographic technology are huge. Once you accept that a new life form is a new life form then at what point do you choose to stop creating them. At what point do you tell holographic life forms that they must limit the amount of other holographic life forms that they create. at what point do you decide that a hologram is just a tool and at what point is it a life form?

That's the huge problem the doctor has forced onto the Federation. It is an enormous issue that Voyager pretended wasn't that significant

But it's absolutely massive

And when the option of simply turning the doctor off (resetting him) solves that massive massive problem, something tells me they would find a way of getting there

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

To anyone who thinks the EMH isn't a sentient lifeform because he's "programmed", I say this: Prove that YOU'RE not programmed.

 

[hux]

To anyone who thinks the EMH isn't a sentient lifeform because he's "programmed", I say this: Prove that YOU'RE not programmed.

A humans programming is significantly more complex. That's why accepting that a holograms programming is as meaningful becomes a serious ethical problem

And besides, programming isn't the issue so much as the ability to change or delete that programming

If I delete you then I've committed murder

If I delete a hologram........what have I done?

 

[MacLeod]

I think calling him a tool is a bit short-sided. If that was all he was supposed to be then they shouldn't have given him the ability to evolve and develop.

But the EMH had to have the abality to adapt to medical situations. Remember the EMH was never designed to be used in the way it was used on VOY. It was simply a tool to call on should you need another Doctor for a brief period of time to help deal with a medical emergency. From memory at least at the end of VOY, he wasn't regonised legally as a person. It doesn't mean a later court ruling wouldn't define him as a person however. Bt what criteria would it law down to define the EMH or another hologram as a person?