Is the animated toon canon?

[Terok Nor]

This is where I channel my inner curmudgeon and point out that this whole fannish obsession with "canon" is a relatively modern phenomenon. When I was a kid, I didn't fret over whether the latest DARK SHADOWS or GET SMART tie-in novel was "canon" or not, or worry about whether the Gold Key TARZAN comics were consistent with the various books, movies, and TV shows. Hell, we didn't even know the word "canon" back then, let alone care about it.

Yeah, I'd notice if the tie-ins got things wrong and had Barnabas acting out of character or whatever, but that's a different type of consistency than insisting that every story published in every medium all line up in some sort of seamless continuity. As long as Tarzan acted like Tarzan, I was happy. In my experience, it's all about getting the voice right. Few things seem to bother tie-in readers more than if the characters don't sound like themselves. "Riker wouldn't say that!"

I can only speak for myself but I don't want or expect every piece of fiction ever written in the Star Trek universe to be a seamless whole. I draw the line at the tv shows and movies all being part of the same "reality". It's too much effort to attach other media to the filmed, cartoon or otherwise, franchise given how much literature is out there.

I did enjoy a series of books in the 90's that told a continuous story that began in TOS, continued into TNG and DS9 and concluded with Voyager but I think it would be unrealistic to expect authors to fact check with each other in case they contradict each others stories. It would also be unrealistic to expect every Star Trek fan to read every single book or comic in case they miss out on something.

It's fair to say unless a book is adapted into an episode or movie that novels and comics are a law unto themselves and not required reading*. Come to think of it many of the filmed episodes aren't required viewing either but it's a lot easier to watch every episode of every Star Trek series than to track down and read every novel or comic. It would also be unrealistic to expect viewers to know what happened in the latest novel because the latest episode is a continuation of it.

I love many of the comics and novels but I don't consider any of them to matter to the on screen canon. They're just a really great way to get more material from Star Trek that delves deeper into the plots and characters than you could expect in a tv show or movie. I wouldn't be against some of the novels being adapted to the screen in fact. Paul Dini adapted his comic about Harley Quinn into an episode of the classic 90's Batman cartoon and it was one of the best episodes.

* I do know you have to check your facts in case you contradict anything that happened on screen but that doesn't appear to have limited you given how successful and prolific you've been with your novels

 

[A beaker full of death]

I don't think anyone in fandom was really using the term "canon" back then . . .

Nor "franchise". Better times.

 

[Christopher]

True. I think Richard Arnold popularized the term when trying to explain the situation (at conventions) after all the post-TNG Season One hiatus activity, which is when all the tie-in licenses were being overhauled/revoked/reissued, and the rules were being rewritten/redefined.

Yeah, I think Arnold is the one who started it -- not only popularizing the term "canon," but introducing the idea that it was some kind of value judgment or dismissal of the things that weren't part of it, rather than merely a descriptive term of criticism. That judgmental, exclusionistic view of canon vs. not-canon has pretty much infected fandom ever since. But it was basically just Arnold's own view, not some universal industry practice like much of fandom still believes it to be.

As a fan who came to TOS as a result of knowing only TAS, TMP and about six episodes of TOS, I spent much of 1980-1982 playing catchup. This included ordering all the back issues of Lincoln Enterprises' official newsletters, with the TAS and TMP issues having been written as those shows were being made - and they certainly gave the impression that everything counted, and that Roddenberry was proud of TAS at the time.

At the time, it was the only new screen Trek around, so of course it was what got promoted and played up as a good thing. But once TNG was the new screen Trek, older things that might get in the way of it were downplayed. Come to think of it, it's the same sort of thing that happened with the Star Wars Expanded Universe that we're discussing in the other thread in Trek Lit. When there weren't any new movies and the EU was pretty much the sole way Star Wars was continuing, it was allowed to take the lead, but now that a whole new slate of movies is taking the lead, it's more practical to focus on that and shunt the less current stuff aside. The priority is always going to be whatever's currently coming out, and everything else takes a back seat to that.

Paul Dini adapted his comic about Harley Quinn into an episode of the classic 90's Batman cartoon and it was one of the best episodes.

In addition to "Mad Love," The New Batman Adventures also adapted its premiere episode "Holiday Knights" from The Batman Adventures Holiday Special #1, though they omitted the Mr. Freeze story that actually made the cover, and they rewrote the Joker/New Year's Eve segment to incorporate the Tim Drake Robin (even though his debut episode hadn't aired yet).

 

[Greg Cox]

True. I think Richard Arnold popularized the term when trying to explain the situation (at conventions) after all the post-TNG Season One hiatus activity, which is when all the tie-in licenses were being overhauled/revoked/reissued, and the rules were being rewritten/redefined.

Yeah, I think Arnold is the one who started it -- not only popularizing the term "canon," but introducing the idea that it was some kind of value judgment or dismissal of the things that weren't part of it, rather than merely a descriptive term of criticism. That judgmental, exclusionistic view of canon vs. not-canon has pretty much infected fandom ever since. But it was basically just Arnold's own view, not some universal industry practice like much of fandom still believes it to be.

As a fan who came to TOS as a result of knowing only TAS, TMP and about six episodes of TOS, I spent much of 1980-1982 playing catchup. This included ordering all the back issues of Lincoln Enterprises' official newsletters, with the TAS and TMP issues having been written as those shows were being made - and they certainly gave the impression that everything counted, and that Roddenberry was proud of TAS at the time.

At the time, it was the only new screen Trek around, so of course it was what got promoted and played up as a good thing. But once TNG was the new screen Trek, older things that might get in the way of it were downplayed. Come to think of it, it's the same sort of thing that happened with the Star Wars Expanded Universe that we're discussing in the other thread in Trek Lit. When there weren't any new movies and the EU was pretty much the sole way Star Wars was continuing, it was allowed to take the lead, but now that a whole new slate of movies is taking the lead, it's more practical to focus on that and shunt the less current stuff aside. The priority is always going to be whatever's currently coming out, and everything else takes a back seat to that.

Exactly. The reason that the Trek novels can be so adventurous now and have continue the story beyond the TV series is because the TV series are no longer in production, so there's no danger of contradicting any future TV continuity.

If, hypothetically, somebody revived TNG or DS9 onscreen, do you really think the new producers would feel obliged to honor whatever's been going on in the novels in the interim?

Of course not. They'd do whatever they thought best for the new show, as well they should. Just as, say, FIRST CONTACT didn't worry about whatever had been established about Zefram Cochrane or the first contact with the Vulcans in this or that book.

 

[Terok Nor]

In addition to "Mad Love," The New Batman Adventures also adapted its premiere episode "Holiday Knights" from The Batman Adventures Holiday Special #1, though they omitted the Mr. Freeze story that actually made the cover, and they rewrote the Joker/New Year's Eve segment to incorporate the Tim Drake Robin (even though his debut episode hadn't aired yet).

I forgot about that one. I think that was one of the first ones I saw when they brought it back with a different animation style. I didn't know what to think. It had the same voices, similar character models and so on but it was so different visually and I was shocked there were new episodes airing. I later found out the animation was changed so it could air with the Superman series and cross over characters.

I'll get back on topic now

 

[Christopher]

I forgot about that one. I think that was one of the first ones I saw when they brought it back with a different animation style.

Most likely, since it was the very first one they showed.

I didn't know what to think. It had the same voices, similar character models and so on but it was so different visually and I was shocked there were new episodes airing. I later found out the animation was changed so it could air with the Superman series and cross over characters.

Also because it gave them the opportunity to streamline the designs, to simplify them and make them easier to animate while also improving the aesthetics (at least in theory; there were some redesigns that were vast improvements, like Batgirl and Scarecrow, but others that didn't quite work, like Joker and Riddler). It also let them ditch the requirement from the B:TAS days to use Tim Burton's Penguin model and a blonde Catwoman like in the movie, and revert those characters to something more like their classic designs.

(And a few of the voices were changed -- Batgirl, Montoya, Lucius Fox, Scarecrow, Killer Croc, and Baby Doll.)

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

This is where I channel my inner curmudgeon and point out that this whole fannish obsession with "canon" is a relatively modern phenomenon. When I was a kid, I didn't fret over whether the latest DARK SHADOWS or GET SMART tie-in novel was "canon" or not, or worry about whether the Gold Key TARZAN comics were consistent with the various books, movies, and TV shows. Hell, we didn't even know the word "canon" back then, let alone care about it.

Not to disagree too much, I remember fans of Dark Shadows --if they read the Gold Key comics and the Marylin Ross novels--criticized them for not lining up with the TV continuity. The TV Dark Shadows was so locked into its own continuity (one of the first TV series to adhere to its own plots without discarding parts when inconvenient), that many fans really dismissed tie-ins as unofficial, or not worth experiencing at all.

Long ago, I found the same reaction in ST fans, who thought comics, novels, etc., were not official (read: canon), and i'm talking about the Bantam / Gold Key / Whitman early years. They were not shy reminding fans who casually added published creations into the TV continuity, that the only thing that was official what anything produced for TV. At the time, that meant TOS & TAS.

 

[Therin of Andor]

Long ago, I found the same reaction in ST fans, who thought comics, novels, etc., were not official (read: canon), and i'm talking about the Bantam / Gold Key / Whitman early years. They were not shy reminding fans who casually added published creations into the TV continuity, that the only thing that was official what anything produced for TV. At the time, that meant TOS & TAS.

I remember it like it was yesterday! I was the eager TMP-inspired Trek newbie in December 1979, finally meeting diehard TOS fans throughout the early 80s. Lots of them had angry questions about TMP and wanted explanations. If I attempted to say that Roddenberry addressed those concerns in his novelization, or that the new aliens were named in the program book and the soundtrack LP's inner sleeve, they just got angrier!

And then, Australians had a six-months longer wait for ST III than the USA, so I convinced some of my new Trek colleagues to read that movie's novelization while we waited. Then they were angry that their favourite McIntyre scenes had been left out of the movie!

History repeated itself when I naively found TrekBBS decades later. Fans would complain that a particular episode or movie had unanswered questions - but only ever mention the licensed tie-in fiction way over there... in the TrekLit section. (And no one ever seemed to know where it was safe to discuss TAS.)

 

[dswynne1]

SNIP!

I used to exclude a lot of TAS episodes from my personal continuity, considering them too fanciful, but then I realized I was applying a double standard, given how many TOS episodes have huge logic problems. So I loosened my standards and came up with rationalizations for certain things, and now there are only four TAS episodes I still find irreconcilable. "The Magicks of Megas-Tu" doesn't work because of its dependence on the discredited steady-state theory of cosmology as well as its center-of-the-galaxy setting. (The references to the center of the galaxy in ST V are sparse enough that I just ignore them and accept the rest of the movie, but it's too, well, central to "Megas-Tu.") "The Slaver Weapon" is really a Known Space story rather than a Trek story, and its version of history is irreconcilable with Enterprise. "How Sharper Than a Serpent's Tooth" grossly misrepresents the Earth history and mythology it's based on and the chronology of ancient civilizations. And "The Counter-Clock Incident" is so damned nonsensical that even Alan Dean Foster's novelization retcons it into an illusion.

Years ago, there was a LOST IN SPACE comic book issue (from the now-defunct Innovation Comics) where it explained that the 3rd season of LOST IN SPACE series was based upon Penny Robinson's fan fiction stories. In fact, the comic issue had the "real" adventure on one side of the page while Penny's interpretation of that same adventure was on the other side. I guess it was the author's way of invalidating the sillier aspects of the show without invalidating the entire season altogether. That's pretty much how I see TAS; those stories DID happen, but that it's being "told" to the "audience" in an exaggerated fashion over beer at some cantina, bar or pub. I doubt human beings for telling tall tales (since we do have the likes of Harry Mudd still in existence).

BTW, as to the VOY episode "Threshold", it would have been better if achieving infinite warp speed was making Paris insane, simply because his mind could not process the experience, and that when Paris and Janeway went infinite speed again, it turned out that they went into the Q Continuum improperly, and that Q (John DeLancie) noticed this, and properly put them back into normal space (but not without saying to Janeway, "I'll be keeping an eye on YOU, my dear"), thus setting the stage for a proper Q appearance later on. Just a thought.

 

[Commishsleer]

Gene doesn't control Star Trek anymore creatively or financially so its up to the guys who are suing the Axanar production team.
Of course fans don't have to accept it. Just live with it.

 

[tomswift2002]

Hi newbie here, seen a few clips from eps of the old cartoon series on youtube. I'm wondering does it fit into the universe the crossover movie Generations or JJ movies or is it canon like the tv series?

Quite frankly I find TAS fits into the continuity of the TOS-TNG-DS9-Voyager universe a lot better than Enterprise.

Enterprise I find is the start of the reboot, and while it does try to fit into the above universe, I find its fit is more like trying to put a square peg into a round hole; although Season 4 works the most with the above universe. Enterprise works a lot better with the 2009 and 2013 movies.

 

[Lieut. Arex]

at least as much as TMP seeing as both fall under the heading of "Let us never speak of this again"

 

[Nerys Myk]

... or worry about whether the Gold Key TARZAN comics were consistent with the various books, movies, and TV shows.

I did.

I jumped for joy when DC got the Tarzan license. Finally Taran like in the books!!!!!!! Ironically, it was the Ron Ely TV show, the old movies and the Gold Key Comics that got me interested in Tarzan.

 

[Christopher]

Years ago, there was a LOST IN SPACE comic book issue (from the now-defunct Innovation Comics) where it explained that the 3rd season of LOST IN SPACE series was based upon Penny Robinson's fan fiction stories.

Her diary entries, rather. Yes, I have that entire series. And presumably it was both the second and third seasons that were Penny's diaries, because the first season was the only one that played it relatively straight.

That's pretty much how I see TAS; those stories DID happen, but that it's being "told" to the "audience" in an exaggerated fashion over beer at some cantina, bar or pub. I doubt human beings for telling tall tales (since we do have the likes of Harry Mudd still in existence).

But that's the thing, though -- there wasn't really all that much in TAS that was intrinsically more fanciful than the things we got in TOS. The monsters were bigger, but TOS still had its share of monsters (giant spacegoing amoeba, anyone?). Both series had stories about how ancient gods and mythological figures were actually aliens. Both series had episodes with giants (Apollo, Keniclius) and episodes involving miniaturization (Flint shrank the Enterprise for no clear reason in "Requiem for Methuselah"). Both series did episodes about rapid aging, about incorporeal aliens possessing the ship, about deadly spacegoing cloud creatures, about shapeshifters, about love potions, etc. TOS had plenty of absurd implausibilities of its own, like duplicate Earths, transporter accidents that split people along moral lines, accelerated people, and so on. (Not to mention its rampant sexism.) If "The Counter-Clock Incident" or "The Magicks of Megas-tu" was just a tall tale, why not "The Alternative Factor" or "Spock's Brain" too while we're at it?

There's no reason to classify TAS any differently from TOS in terms of its content. Aside from sex and violence and the freedom to portray more exotic aliens and settings, TAS was written on the same level as TOS. Being in live action didn't exempt TOS from having plenty of "cartoony" and implausible aspects of its own.

Gene doesn't control Star Trek anymore creatively or financially...

I should think not, seeing as how he's been dead for over 24 years.

 

[Albertese]

This is why I'm so much a fan of the old FASA Role Playing game: it tied together TOS, TAS, and the first three movies into one (mostly) cohesive body and it really works well.

In fact, my own "headcanon" (in the parlance of our times) draws heavily from that source, so yeah, I happily include TAS right alongside the rest of my Trek.

--Alex

 

[Greg Cox]

This is where I channel my inner curmudgeon and point out that this whole fannish obsession with "canon" is a relatively modern phenomenon. When I was a kid, I didn't fret over whether the latest DARK SHADOWS or GET SMART tie-in novel was "canon" or not, or worry about whether the Gold Key TARZAN comics were consistent with the various books, movies, and TV shows. Hell, we didn't even know the word "canon" back then, let alone care about it.

Not to disagree too much, I remember fans of Dark Shadows --if they read the Gold Key comics and the Marylin Ross novels--criticized them for not lining up with the TV continuity. The TV Dark Shadows was so locked into its own continuity (one of the first TV series to adhere to its own plots without discarding parts when inconvenient), that many fans really dismissed tie-ins as unofficial, or not worth experiencing at all..

To be fair, younger me did occasionally raise an eyebrow at some continuity glitch, and was a bit put off by the fact that the second DS movie had little or nothing to do with the TV show aside from borrowing a few character names and plot devices, but I quickly deduced that the books and movies and comics were their own thing and devoured them anyway.

They were fun "extra" adventures, that's all.

Maybe it was because I was used to seeing multiple versions of the same characters showing up on TV and the Late Night movie. I understood from an early age that, for example, the Universal DRACULA movies did not take place in the same continuity as the later Hammer movies, even though they both showed up on "Nightmare Theater" on Friday nights. Nor did I worry about how exactly the various Sinbad movies fit together or which were "canon."

Ditto for Tarzan, Zorro, Sherlock Holmes, Batman, etc. Did the FANTASTIC FOUR Big Little Book match up perfectly with the original comic book or the Saturday morning cartoon? Not really, but I don't remember worrying about whether the book was "canon" or not.

Is it just me or do people take this whole "canon" thing a lot more seriously these days?

 

[A beaker full of death]

That's pretty much how I see TAS; those stories DID happen, but that it's being "told" to the "audience" in an exaggerated fashion over beer at some cantina, bar or pub. I doubt human beings for telling tall tales (since we do have the likes of Harry Mudd still in existence).

Jesus, that's a lot of work. Why bother? Can't you just enjoy it for what it is?

 

[Silvercrest]

Certain things, like Giant Clone Spock, are not that easy to accept on their own terms.

 

[Christopher]

Certain things, like Giant Clone Spock, are not that easy to accept on their own terms.

Sure, and certain things in TOS are just as hard to accept. Ships falling out of orbit when the power fails, Miri's unexplained duplicate Earth, the insanely wrong treatment of antimatter in "The Alternative Factor," alien women stealing Spock's brain, Flint shrinking the Enterprise, etc.

 

[MarsWeeps]

Hi newbie here, seen a few clips from eps of the old cartoon series on youtube. I'm wondering does it fit into the universe the crossover movie Generations or JJ movies or is it canon like the tv series?

I think I've changed my position on this. For a long time I always thought TAS should be ignored when it comes to TOS canon, but I just started rewatching some of the episodes and I can imagine them being the continuation of the 5 year mission. Sure, the episodes are shorter but it wouldn't take much to make them full live action episodes if TOS had lasted more than 3 seasons.