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Is the animated toon canon?

WiredPlanet

Lieutenant Commander
Red Shirt
Hi newbie here, seen a few clips from eps of the old cartoon series on youtube. :cool: I'm wondering does it fit into the universe the crossover movie Generations or JJ movies or is it canon like the tv series? :bolian: :techman:
 
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Others may be able to answer it better, but my understanding of it is that at the time it was produced it was intended as a continuation of the TOS five-year mission, but Gene later declared it non-canon.

After his death, TPTB softened that stance somewhat and started to include elements from it into the live-action series (such as the Sehlat, the Vulcan sabre-toothed cat thing appearing in Enterprise).
 
The animated series' canon status has been controversial in the past, because there was a time back in 1989 when its ownership was in dispute and Paramount thus tried to distance itself from it. But that issue was resolved decades ago, and these days, the animated series (TAS) is treated essentially the same as any of the live-action series and films. Elements of it have been referenced in later shows and films, and it's included alongside the other series on Netflix and in the "canon-only" sites StarTrek.com and Memory Alpha. (Although for some reason it is still being excluded from the updated edition of the Star Trek Encyclopedia which is reportedly in the works.) True, a few of its individual episodes have been contradicted by other productions, but the same goes for live-action Trek (for instance, "The Alternative Factor"'s treatment of antimatter is contradicted by all other Trek, and the ease of travel to the center of the galaxy in Star Trek V is contradicted by TNG, DS9, and the entire driving premise of Voyager).

And for what it's worth, it's by far the most direct continuation of the original series from a creative standpoint. Gene Roddenberry had complete creative control over it (in theory, though he rarely bothered to get involved with it). D.C. Fontana was its showrunner. It reunited almost all of the original cast, and roughly half its episodes were written by veterans of the original series. No other Star Trek sequel or continuation has had as many creators and performers in common with TOS, or has been as authentic to TOS in its tone, design, and sensibility. Its creators were trying to make a legitimate fourth and fifth season of Star Trek, insofar as they could within the limits of '70s TV animation. So it doesn't really make sense to think of it as somehow less "genuine" just because it's not in live action.
 
Of course, the more important answer is, "It doesn't matter." Canon, non-canon, it's all just stories made up for our entertainment. As long as a story is entertaining, it doesn't matter what "reality" it's in. Batman: The Animated Series isn't in the same universe as the comics or the live-action movies, but it's still great.

Canon isn't some kind of permission for you to enjoy something. It's just a category. Genre fans obsess on the question of "Is this canon?" and overlook the question that really matters: "Is this enjoyable?" If the answer to the latter question is "Yes," then the former question is completely irrelevant.

Of course, whether TAS is enjoyable is a matter of opinion. I'm quite fond of it, but then, I'm of the generation that grew up watching it. It's from an era when TV animation was a lot more primitive. It looked really good for 1973, but modern viewers probably need to keep an open mind and focus more on the stories than the execution. Some of the stories are quite good, especially "Yesteryear." I think the artwork is really cool, though, even if it doesn't move much. It's a rare chance to see a version of Star Trek that features a lot of non-humanoid aliens and truly exotic environments, and to see parts of the Enterprise they never showed on TOS.
 
^ My thought exactly. Although the ep with the giant Vulcan is definitely non-canon for me. :P
 
Others may be able to answer it better, but my understanding of it is that at the time it was produced it was intended as a continuation of the TOS five-year mission, but Gene later declared it non-canon.

After his death, TPTB softened that stance somewhat and started to include elements from it into the live-action series (such as the Sehlat, the Vulcan sabre-toothed cat thing appearing in Enterprise).

Although, to be fair, the sehlat was first mentioned in "Journey to Babel."
 
I believe there's some trademark issues between CBS Paramount and Lincoln Enterprises (and possibly Larry Niven and "The Slaver Weapon") regarding a variety of Animated Series episodes. That's probably why it isn't referenced in reference books and why it's verboten to use TAS elements in the current Strange New Worlds contest.

Obviously, the writers here would know more about it, especially since they've used said elements in their own works. So I'm not sure if Pocket has a seperate deal or if the understanding has wobbled a bit over the last twenty years or so.
 
Of course, the more important answer is, "It doesn't matter." Canon, non-canon, it's all just stories made up for our entertainment. As long as a story is entertaining, it doesn't matter what "reality" it's in. Batman: The Animated Series isn't in the same universe as the comics or the live-action movies, but it's still great.

Canon isn't some kind of permission for you to enjoy something. It's just a category. Genre fans obsess on the question of "Is this canon?" and overlook the question that really matters: "Is this enjoyable?" If the answer to the latter question is "Yes," then the former question is completely irrelevant.

Of course, whether TAS is enjoyable is a matter of opinion. I'm quite fond of it, but then, I'm of the generation that grew up watching it. It's from an era when TV animation was a lot more primitive. It looked really good for 1973, but modern viewers probably need to keep an open mind and focus more on the stories than the execution. Some of the stories are quite good, especially "Yesteryear." I think the artwork is really cool, though, even if it doesn't move much. It's a rare chance to see a version of Star Trek that features a lot of non-humanoid aliens and truly exotic environments, and to see parts of the Enterprise they never showed on TOS.
I see what you're saying, but I do think it's helpful to know what stories "count" as far as The Powers That Be are concerned.
 
The animated series' canon status has been controversial in the past, because there was a time back in 1989 when its ownership was in dispute and Paramount thus tried to distance itself from it. But that issue was resolved decades ago, and these days, the animated series (TAS) is treated essentially the same as any of the live-action series and films. Elements of it have been referenced in later shows and films, and it's included alongside the other series on Netflix and in the "canon-only" sites StarTrek.com and Memory Alpha. (Although for some reason it is still being excluded from the updated edition of the Star Trek Encyclopedia which is reportedly in the works.) True, a few of its individual episodes have been contradicted by other productions, but the same goes for live-action Trek (for instance, "The Alternative Factor"'s treatment of antimatter is contradicted by all other Trek, and the ease of travel to the center of the galaxy in Star Trek V is contradicted by TNG, DS9, and the entire driving premise of Voyager).

And for what it's worth, it's by far the most direct continuation of the original series from a creative standpoint. Gene Roddenberry had complete creative control over it (in theory, though he rarely bothered to get involved with it). D.C. Fontana was its showrunner. It reunited almost all of the original cast, and roughly half its episodes were written by veterans of the original series. No other Star Trek sequel or continuation has had as many creators and performers in common with TOS, or has been as authentic to TOS in its tone, design, and sensibility. Its creators were trying to make a legitimate fourth and fifth season of Star Trek, insofar as they could within the limits of '70s TV animation. So it doesn't really make sense to think of it as somehow less "genuine" just because it's not in live action.

Well said. :techman:
 
I believe there's some trademark issues between CBS Paramount and Lincoln Enterprises (and possibly Larry Niven and "The Slaver Weapon") regarding a variety of Animated Series episodes. That's probably why it isn't referenced in reference books and why it's verboten to use TAS elements in the current Strange New Worlds contest.

Obviously, the writers here would know more about it, especially since they've used said elements in their own works. So I'm not sure if Pocket has a seperate deal or if the understanding has wobbled a bit over the last twenty years or so.

I've made plenty of TAS references in my Trek books, and nobody's ever told me there was a problem with doing so. I can't believe there are any trademark/copyright issues when TAS is available on home video and Netflix right alongside all the live-action series; as far as I know, it's now fully owned by CBS (formerly Paramount). And I believe Roddenberry's Norway Corporation (Lincoln Enterprises was his mail-order memorabilia company, not his production company) sold all the rights to ST to Paramount a long time ago.

"The Slaver Weapon" is a separate issue, of course, because it's an adaptation of a story that's part of Larry Niven's Known Space universe, which is about the same age as Star Trek and has had its own independent, ongoing existence for half a century now. Niven has prior claim to its concepts and merely loaned them to TAS. Indeed, unlike most adaptations of pre-existing stories into an ongoing series, "The Slaver Weapon" changes virtually nothing about the original story to fit the Trek universe. Rather, it reworked the Trek format to fit the existing story, leaving out Kirk and the Enterprise altogether. Basically it took three Trek characters out of context and plopped them down in the middle of what is otherwise entirely the Known Space universe, so as to act out the lead roles in a slightly streamlined but extremely faithful dramatization of "The Soft Weapon."
 
I believe there's some trademark issues between CBS Paramount and Lincoln Enterprises (and possibly Larry Niven and "The Slaver Weapon") regarding a variety of Animated Series episodes. That's probably why it isn't referenced in reference books and why it's verboten to use TAS elements in the current Strange New Worlds contest.

Obviously, the writers here would know more about it, especially since they've used said elements in their own works. So I'm not sure if Pocket has a seperate deal or if the understanding has wobbled a bit over the last twenty years or so.

I've made plenty of TAS references in my Trek books, and nobody's ever told me there was a problem with doing so. I can't believe there are any trademark/copyright issues when TAS is available on home video and Netflix right alongside all the live-action series; as far as I know, it's now fully owned by CBS (formerly Paramount). And I believe Roddenberry's Norway Corporation (Lincoln Enterprises was his mail-order memorabilia company, not his production company) sold all the rights to ST to Paramount a long time ago.

"The Slaver Weapon" is a separate issue, of course, because it's an adaptation of a story that's part of Larry Niven's Known Space universe, which is about the same age as Star Trek and has had its own independent, ongoing existence for half a century now. Niven has prior claim to its concepts and merely loaned them to TAS. Indeed, unlike most adaptations of pre-existing stories into an ongoing series, "The Slaver Weapon" changes virtually nothing about the original story to fit the Trek universe. Rather, it reworked the Trek format to fit the existing story, leaving out Kirk and the Enterprise altogether. Basically it took three Trek characters out of context and plopped them down in the middle of what is otherwise entirely the Known Space universe, so as to act out the lead roles in a slightly streamlined but extremely faithful dramatization of "The Soft Weapon."

Yeah, I'm probably working off outdated/incorrect info from ten years ago. But it is odd that the new Strange New Worlds is so anti-TAS and the new Encyclopedia has chosen to ignore it (although that may be an Okuda/Mirek bias). I understand it's been used in countless novels over the last twenty-plus years.

Maybe the SNW decree is simply to prevent Kzinti stories from submission.
 
Thanks for the replies guys, I think I will order it and enjoy the show I know how to understand it now
 
When I first started writing Trek books, more than twenty years ago (!), the understanding was that TAS wasn't "canon" and we should not reference it in the books. I gather things have loosened up a bit about that over the years, so that authors can sneak in references to the cartoons if they feel like it, but I still don't think it's the case where we authors have to consider TAS canon. in other words, nobody has ever told me I had change something in one of my books because it contradicted a TAS episode, as they might with a live-action episode.

And, to be honest, I suspect some episodes are "unofficially" considered more canon than others. Most everybody accepts "Yesteryear" as part of Spock's backstory, more or less, but I'm sure there are some others that have been swept under the rug, again more or less.

One interesting case is Captain Robert April, who was first mentioned onscreen in TAS, but has been accepted as part of Trek lore for decades now, appearing in several novels and short stories. But that does not necessarily mean that the events of that particular TAS episode are "canon," if that makes any sense. :)
 
When I first started writing Trek books, more than twenty years ago (!), the understanding was that TAS wasn't "canon" and we should not reference it in the books. I gather things have loosened up a bit about that over the years, so that authors can sneak in references to the cartoons if they feel like it, but I still don't think it's the case where we authors have to consider TAS canon.

Some of us have done a lot more than sneak in references. Dayton and Kevin did a direct sequel to "The Time Trap" in SCE (Where Time Stands Still). I included a huge amount of TOS references and characters in Forgotten History, and Devna from "The Time Trap" is a major character in my Rise of the Federation books. Peter David, of course, has used Arex and M'Ress as regular characters in New Frontier for quite a few years. Excelsior: Forged in Fire did Koloth flashback chapters that were a direct followup to "More Tribbles, More Troubles."


in other words, nobody has ever told me I had change something in one of my books because it contradicted a TAS episode, as they might with a live-action episode.
True, some books do occasionally contradict TAS -- for instance, the Harry Mudd material in TNG: The Light Fantastic seems to ignore "Mudd's Passion."


And, to be honest, I suspect some episodes are "unofficially" considered more canon than others. Most everybody accepts "Yesteryear" as part of Spock's backstory, more or less, but I'm sure there are some others that have been swept under the rug, again more or less.

One interesting case is Captain Robert April, who was first mentioned onscreen in TAS, but has been accepted as part of Trek lore for decades now, appearing in several novels and short stories. But that does not necessarily mean that the events of that particular TAS episode are "canon," if that makes any sense. :)
Sure, but as I said, that's true of some live-action episodes as well. "The Alternative Factor" is irreconcilable with how antimatter and dilithium are treated in the rest of the franchise, and it's the one TOS episode that virtually nobody has ever attempted to do a sequel to or reference in any way (aside from one or two recent works referencing Lt. Charlene Masters, the only worthwhile thing about the episode). The Final Frontier's legitimacy is often called into question. "Threshold" was disowned by its own writer. And then there are details like "James R. Kirk" and "Your world of starship captains doesn't admit women" and all the times that Data used contractions in the first season, things that were unambiguously part of canonical episodes but that are still ignored as unreal because later canon overwrote them.

This is why it's a mistake to equate "canon" with "real" or "fixed" or "immutable." That's not what it means. It just means the fiction that comes from the series's own creators as distinct from other people borrowing their concepts. And those creators are free to change their minds and retcon their universes and ignore their own past works. So being part of a canon is not an absolute guarantee of permanence. Something can be part of a canon and still be apocryphal.

And yes, maybe that's a bit more often the case with TAS episodes than with the live-action series on the whole, but that doesn't mean the whole series should be disregarded. Again, canon is not permission to enjoy something. TAS is significant as the most direct continuation of TOS that exists. TOS itself is a hugely imperfect and inconsistent series with a lot of aspects of its concepts and production values and piecemeal continuity that we choose to gloss over in favor of focusing more on the whole. So why should we treat TAS any differently? Is a giant Spock clone any worse than a giant Greek god? Is the planet of accelerated cataclysms in "The Jihad" more unbelievable than the duplicate Earth of "Miri"? Are the shrunken characters in "The Terratin Incident" that much more physically implausible than the sped-up characters in "Wink of an Eye"?

I used to exclude a lot of TAS episodes from my personal continuity, considering them too fanciful, but then I realized I was applying a double standard, given how many TOS episodes have huge logic problems. So I loosened my standards and came up with rationalizations for certain things, and now there are only four TAS episodes I still find irreconcilable. "The Magicks of Megas-Tu" doesn't work because of its dependence on the discredited steady-state theory of cosmology as well as its center-of-the-galaxy setting. (The references to the center of the galaxy in ST V are sparse enough that I just ignore them and accept the rest of the movie, but it's too, well, central to "Megas-Tu.") "The Slaver Weapon" is really a Known Space story rather than a Trek story, and its version of history is irreconcilable with Enterprise. "How Sharper Than a Serpent's Tooth" grossly misrepresents the Earth history and mythology it's based on and the chronology of ancient civilizations. And "The Counter-Clock Incident" is so damned nonsensical that even Alan Dean Foster's novelization retcons it into an illusion.
 
The giant Spock is more logical.

Badum Tshh

I consider TAS to be an artistic representation of the "real" live action adventures. So in an of themselves are the canon, no. But they do represent ideas which I consider to be canon.

Also, I have a hard time believing the entire Star Trek universe was converted into cartoon format for two years.

As for "Threshold," that was a strange dream that Tom Paris had.
 
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