Is Stargate dead... forever?

[Temis the Vorta]

My hunch about how to make a space opera series work on cable: hit roughly the same character-vs-action mix as nuBSG. There should be more of an attempt to tackle serious issues than the hit-and-run approach of Stargate, but needs to stop well short of the self-indulgent navel-gazing of nuBSG.

I wouldn't be scared to focus strongly on character development. Sci fi audiences on cable are surprisingly tolerant of character-based yakkedy-yak. Just look at The Walking Dead, which has veered strongly in the direction of character focus with zombie attacks more or less as the cherry on top (tho I'm sure Sunday's mid-season break will amp up the action considerably), and the ratings are breaking records regardless.

I wouldn't mimic the lighter approach SyFy takes to its sf/f cop shows like Eureka and Haven. I think space opera appeals to a somewhat different audience that is hungry for redder meat in both drama and and action.

 

[Sindatur]

I could go light and fluffy or BSG gritty for a Space Opera (But, yea, wouldn't want it to be as depressing as BSG. BSG was awesome, but, sometimes it was hard to watch and not want to slit your wrists). The important thing is Spaceships and Aliens and good characters and focused storytelling.

 

[McDuff]

My hunch about how to make a space opera series work on cable: hit roughly the same character-vs-action mix as nuBSG. There should be more of an attempt to tackle serious issues than the hit-and-run approach of Stargate, but needs to stop well short of the self-indulgent navel-gazing of nuBSG.

Isn't that called SGU? LOL

Seriously, I would buy it if there's more aliens planets and civilizations. More adventures and explorations. More sci-fi allegory and topical reflection. I don't want another soap opera on a spaceship like SGU was a bit. I prefer real human drama for that. All this with the nice "realistic" somewhat gritty approach taken in SGU but with more things happening, more adventures, better plot diversity.

 

[Sindatur]

^Yes, SGU done properly.

Truth be told, it had finally become a "Good" show in the end. Second set of 10 episodes in Season 2, was mostly good, IMHO. Really hit and miss before that, moreso, the further you go back towards the Pilot. If the second half of S2 was instead the second half of S1, the show could've really gone places (I understand if you want a deep show, it can take you 10 episodes lay the groundwork, but, you can't expect to survive in today's world, if it takes you a season and a half to become good)

 

[MacLeod]

^ Look at the S1-2 of TNG, by the standards the show hit for the most part they were poor.

Several factors are at work

1.>The network wants an instant hit, and doesn't always allow a show to get from being ok to great.

2.>with regards to a franchise, if it has spin off shows they are invariable compared to the original show. And there can be a segment of the fanbase who refuse to watch it because isn't not the show they liked. As I alluded to in an earlier post, Producers are in a catch 22 situation. Part of the fanbase will call on them playing it safe and doing what's been done before, whilst another segmant why have you tried something new. If we go back to Trek we have the original classic series, followed by a similar show TNG, then we switch to a slightly different style of show with DSN. When DSN was annouced we had all sorts of how can you do Star Trek if you don't go anywhere etc... But now DSN is generally regarded as one of the best if not the best Trek Show (of course everyone has their favourite and may disagrree). So what could have been with SG:U if given the chance to grow.

3.>As fans of the Sci-Fi genre whether we like to admit it or not, Sci-Fi on TV can be a niche market (well at least space based Sci-Fi). So it's usually not going to get stellar ratings so expectations by the network have to be realestic.

4.>Cost, Sci-Fi esp: Space based can be expensive to produce, In the case of SG unless I'm mistaken MGM were the sole rights holder, so they made the money from international sales, DVD/Blu-ray sales etc.. and not SyFy channel. So whilst MGM might have been making money from the show the channel on which it aired in the US wasn't. Generally you don't want to make a loss in your home market unless international sales will compensate for it.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

My hunch about how to make a space opera series work on cable: hit roughly the same character-vs-action mix as nuBSG. There should be more of an attempt to tackle serious issues than the hit-and-run approach of Stargate, but needs to stop well short of the self-indulgent navel-gazing of nuBSG.

Isn't that called SGU? LOL

It goes without saying that this theoretical show shouldn't be total crap like SGU. Beyond that, the question is one of tone.

^ Look at the S1-2 of TNG, by the standards the show hit for the most part they were poor.

By any standards, the first two seasons were poor. But if TNG debuted like that today, it would be cancelled within a couple episodes. Plus, the TV biz has changed so much that even if it were as perfect as you could imagine, it couldn't survive on broadcast because the audience has split up too much. Gotta go to cable where the 6M or so viewers that is probably about the max for space opera means a successful series, while the same number on broadcast is cancellation bait.

But cable series have a whole host of other expectations, regardless of what genre they're in. SyFy might be amenable to a space opera series with a tone that hits midway between Stargate fluff and nuBSG sturm und drang, but everywhere else on cable, the tone would be closer to nuBSG. Just look at the genre examples that already exist - Falling Skies, The Walking Dead, Game of Thrones.

 

[Sindatur]

^ Look at the S1-2 of TNG, by the standards the show hit for the most part they were poor.

Several factors are at work

1.>The network wants an instant hit, and doesn't always allow a show to get from being ok to great.

2.>with regards to a franchise, if it has spin off shows they are invariable compared to the original show. And there can be a segment of the fanbase who refuse to watch it because isn't not the show they liked. As I alluded to in an earlier post, Producers are in a catch 22 situation. Part of the fanbase will call on them playing it safe and doing what's been done before, whilst another segmant why have you tried something new. If we go back to Trek we have the original classic series, followed by a similar show TNG, then we switch to a slightly different style of show with DSN. When DSN was annouced we had all sorts of how can you do Star Trek if you don't go anywhere etc... But now DSN is generally regarded as one of the best if not the best Trek Show (of course everyone has their favourite and may disagrree). So what could have been with SG:U if given the chance to grow.

3.>As fans of the Sci-Fi genre whether we like to admit it or not, Sci-Fi on TV can be a niche market (well at least space based Sci-Fi). So it's usually not going to get stellar ratings so expectations by the network have to be realestic.

4.>Cost, Sci-Fi esp: Space based can be expensive to produce, In the case of SG unless I'm mistaken MGM were the sole rights holder, so they made the money from international sales, DVD/Blu-ray sales etc.. and not SyFy channel. So whilst MGM might have been making money from the show the channel on which it aired in the US wasn't. Generally you don't want to make a loss in your home market unless international sales will compensate for it.

TNG was a different time, it was syndicated on UPN and WB, networks that were trying to become, and without Cable Scripted Drama being around yet. Today, it wouldn't survive that long flailing around like that, I don't believe

 

[DonIago]

...I believe TNG preceded either of those networks.

In southern NY it was on WPIX.

 

[McDuff]

The TNG and SG1 format is the same format as the most popular scripted shows on TV.

CSI, The Mentalist, Criminal Minds, NCIS, etc banking 15 millions viewers a week. So people who say the time is different. It is not that so. If anything it our times and the ratings proves the popularity of such weekly "mission/mystery/adventure" oriented format with some serialized element. Not everybody are TV/Internet addicts who want to watch only serialized soap operaish stories.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

The TNG and SG1 format is the same format as the most popular scripted shows on TV.

If you mean that there's an audience for sci-fi-tinged cop shows, SyFy's figured that out - Haven, Warehouse 13, Alphas - those series serves the sf/f-cop show audience quite well and get strong ratings without going to the expense of fancy outer-space sets or even trips to the Forest Planet.

Robert Hewitt Wolfe's proposed space opera series for SyFy has a cop-show element - his spacefaring characters are apparently some sort of space-cop force - which could be great if it harkens back to the long forgotten space cop aspect of Star Trek.

If a cop show element helps get space opera back on TV, I'm all for it. (And when Star Trek comes back to TV, I hope they go back to TOS for the policing aspect of Starfleet as well, and restore the full range of topics - Starfleet = cops/soldiers/diplomats.)

There's nothing wrong with an episodic/serialized format (similar to DS9 for instance) but the topic of conversation here is more about the tone than the format. I don't want RHW's series to have a tone as light as some of SyFy's other shows, which from what I've seen, can be annoyingly cutesy. B5 would be a good template for both tone and format.

 

[46379.1]

Not Stargate (I didn't know where else to post it), but there's a connection: A new comic by Joseph Mallozi and Paul Mullie debuts this January called Dark Matter.

http://www.darkhorse.com/Comics/18-060/DARK-MATTER-1-of-4

A derelict ship floats in space, its troubled crew awakened from stasis with no memories of who they are or how they got on board. Their search for answers triggers the vessel's deadly security system: a relentless android bent on their destruction. Facing threats at every turn, they have to work together to survive a voyage charged with vengeance, redemption, betrayals, and hidden secrets best left unknown.

The interesting part to me
According Mallozzi's blog, "...the plan is to use it as a springboard to a television series"

 

[TheNatureRoy]

Not Stargate (I didn't know where else to post it), but there's a connection: A new comic by Joseph Mallozi and Paul Mullie debuts this January called Dark Matter.

http://www.darkhorse.com/Comics/18-060/DARK-MATTER-1-of-4

A derelict ship floats in space, its troubled crew awakened from stasis with no memories of who they are or how they got on board. Their search for answers triggers the vessel's deadly security system: a relentless android bent on their destruction. Facing threats at every turn, they have to work together to survive a voyage charged with vengeance, redemption, betrayals, and hidden secrets best left unknown.

The interesting part to me
According Mallozzi's blog, "...the plan is to use it as a springboard to a television series"

I have followed this as well. Perhaps you should post this in the general Sci-Fi area.

 

[TheNatureRoy]

Robert Hewitt Wolfe's proposed space opera series for SyFy has a cop-show element - his spacefaring characters are apparently some sort of space-cop force - which could be great if it harkens back to the long forgotten space cop aspect of Star Trek...

There's nothing wrong with an episodic/serialized format (similar to DS9 for instance) but the topic of conversation here is more about the tone than the format. I don't want RHW's series to have a tone as light as some of SyFy's other shows, which from what I've seen, can be annoyingly cutesy. B5 would be a good template for both tone and format.

I'd agree w/just about everything you said, although I'll add that shows that are too episodic just don't feel 'weighty' enough to be entirely satisfactory. There is a fine line to be balanced.

Also, in terms of tone and the examples given, consider that cable genre television doesn't have to be completely depressing these days. I would say that Walking Dead, Falling Skies, and BSG do/did, however, because they all take place in the immediate wake of the apocalypse. If anything, Falling Skies isn't dark enough considering its setting and it suffers somewhat as a result.

However, RHW's series seems to be set just following the conclusion of a massive war, so things would finally be looking up in general (although this crew would likely be dealing w/areas that aren't quite so optimistic). The general concept should allow for a show that is serious and thoughtful but without the need to be quite as dark as the aforementioned examples.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

If anything, Falling Skies isn't dark enough considering its setting and it suffers somewhat as a result.

It's hard to know how people would "realistically" respond to a totally apocalyptic situation. (There's an ongoing debate on that topic right now in the BSG forum.) Would they question whether life is even worth living, a la The Walking Dead? Or would they take a blinkered approach and just keep fighting until they can't, and rarely stop to calculate the odds, like on Falling Skies?

I suspect that both is true, but there will be more survivors among the people who think like the Falling Skies characters. Humans are remarkably durable, adaptable and good at using delusion and evasion in situations where survival demands it (those are popular even in non-survival situations. )

 

[RoJoHen]

I would probably be very sarcastic in the face of the apocalypse.

 

[sojourner]

I just got done consulting with the Oracle of Delphi and she has confirmed to me that Stargate will return in the future, though she refused to give details.

As you would expect, it turns out she is an Ancient.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

^ Look at the S1-2 of TNG, by the standards the show hit for the most part they were poor.

Whether or not some fans like the first couple of years of TNG has nothing to do with its ratings success. TNG was a hit from the beginning in terms of viewership.

Dean Devlin's sequel which ignores the TV continuity is unlikely to happen. Keep in mind, the only reason anyone still cares about the original Stargate movie is because of the TV shows.

That doesn't matter because they've petered out. What matters is that the movie Stargate was a hit when it was released and the trademark is still well known thanks to the recently-deceased TV franchise.

Remaking the original film makes all kinds of sense, and nothing else really does. Having characters named O'Neill and Jackson in the remake is just gravy, since they appeared in both the movie and the more recent versions. Make Jackson a woman this time. Better still, make O'Neill the woman.

 

[McDuff]

The TNG and SG1 format is the same format as the most popular scripted shows on TV.

If you mean that there's an audience for sci-fi-tinged cop shows,

I don't view it as a cop shows element. I view it as a more general way as a weekly "mission/mystery/adventure" element or format.

Obviously some TV execs will view it as a cop show element and make something like X-files or Fringe, but what is fun about weekly cop shows is that you discover new people, new worlds every week all while following your favorites characters through it.

SG1 and TNG are examples of such. It's not really a cop show, not even a cop show in space, but almost. You can see that what make them fun is the same idea. Discovering new worlds every week through our favorite characters. A bit more realism and grittiness could provide some creative originality to the concept.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

SG1 and TNG are examples of such. It's not really a cop show, not even a cop show in space, but almost.

SG1 just replaces policing with a military angle, but the SG1 team polices the galaxy to protect Earth, so essentially it's a cop show.

TNG's format has been run into the ground and is no longer viable. Terra Nova of all series is trying to resurrect it, and the result is boring and tired and it's headed for cancellation.

Grimm is a fantasy cop show that's managing to survive on NBC, but only just barely, and only because NBC is desperate.

There are interesting non-cop/military missions you could devise a series around - for example, Crusade's mission to find a cure for a disease - but that requires an ongoing serialized format. There could be one-off episodes within that serialized structure, a stop at a planet that might have the cure but doesn't, etc.

 

[McDuff]

SG1 and TNG are examples of such. It's not really a cop show, not even a cop show in space, but almost.

SG1 just replaces policing with a military angle, but the SG1 team polices the galaxy to protect Earth, so essentially it's a cop show.

TNG's format has been run into the ground and is no longer viable.

SG1 and TNG have the same style and format. I always thought the SGC was like the Enterprise spaceship, while beaming down was like using the stargate (and visiting a new or already known planet).

Those 2 series are very close to one another. Almost the same thing beside the tone.