Is Starfleets Anti-Army Sentiment Justified¿!

[fireproof78]

When your security staff training is at "Rent A Mall Cop" level, I'm not surprised.

It's a sad fact of Starfleet training. Perhaps the Khitomer Accords left them less concerned at preparation.

Exactly, there's alot of training knowledge, tactics, manuevers, tricks, fighting styles to pick up from all the history behind Androia, Vulcan, Earth, let alone any other member worlds that might join.

Luckily they showed a bit of competence with the MACO's.
Even DISCO showed a bit of competence by being properly geared up for away missions and having a tactical vest.

i think one of the biggest aspects of TMP going forward was the ask first, shoot much later policy that dominated Starfleet's politics. They prefer to emphasize the diplomatic aspects of each culture, highlighted in the Babel conference and the rather toothless response to the Romulans sending a spy amongst the Vulcan delegation. Starfleet prefers to handle things by talking, rather than emphasizing martial prowess, save for as a last resort.

And, Starfleet struggles to learn the lessons from the past.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

And, Starfleet struggles to learn the lessons from the past.

It takes massive loss of life & ships before they start learning their lessons.

We only have to see the transition from TNG era to post Dominion War era StarFleet to see the changes, albeit slowly.

At least they're getting more competent, still not quite there on the ground battle game given how poorly equipped their security team was when dealing with the Borg Queen forcefully beaming herself onto the StarShips Bridge.

Brought alot of Phaser Pistols, but no personal shields, no body armor, etc.

At least the Holographic Shax had the right idea and brought out a BFG beam blaster.

 

[fireproof78]

It takes massive loss of life & ships before they start learning their lessons.

Well, that's because they are evolved. People don't mourn death in the future.

Brought alot of Phaser Pistols, but no personal shields, no body armor, etc.

Maybe next year.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

Well, that's because they are evolved. People don't mourn death in the future.

I don't buy that Gene Roddenberry-ism BS.

 

[fireproof78]

I don't buy that Gene Roddenberry-ism BS.

Ok. Well it clearly informs attitudes in the world so I don't know if it matters much if we buy it or not.

Regardless, I think that ground forces for the Federation, be it MACOs, Starfleet Marines, or Federal Army Personnel I would agree with it. That way Starfleet isn't doing everything for the Federation.

 

[The Wormhole]

Well, that's because they are evolved. People don't mourn death in the future.

People may not mourn death, but one would think they would see the value of people living and gaining experience to become better in their profession.

 

[UssGlenn]

'Starfleet Marines' is a concept that has been floating around since forever, but other than a single FASA supplement for the old RPG, I don't think it has ever been seriously tackled by either trek writers or any other form of media.

The closest we came was the MACOs on the Enterprise series.

Given that Starfleet's 'nature' is primarily exploratory and defensive, I like the idea of Starfleet Marines being a 'reserve force' that is held in existence with a very small active component which exists mainly to train and administrate the larger organization until its activation is required by something like the Dominion War. Then, it goes 'active' for the duration, and when the war is over, stands back down to its smaller reserve status.

The existence of Colonel West in TUC, is the closest we get to onscreen evidence of Marines. His plan would have to involve ground forces, wouldn't it?

 

[fireproof78]

People may not mourn death, but one would think they would see the value of people living and gaining experience to become better in their profession.

Maybe. To be honest I cannot imagine a world were mourning death is quite functional but I have to work with what is presented on screen, so I imagine that if there is loss they will not automatically take that as a sign of needing corrective action.

 

[The Wormhole]

The existence of Colonel West in TUC, is the closest we get to onscreen evidence of Marines.

Actually, the closest onscreen depiction of "Starfleet Marines" would have been TFF. That is, behind the scenes sources say the guys on the Nimbus III raid are Marines, even though that's never made clear in the actual movie.

 

[C.E. Evans]

Well, that's because they are evolved. People don't mourn death in the future.

I don't buy that Gene Roddenberry-ism BS.

People may not mourn death, but one would think they would see the value of people living and gaining experience to become better in their profession.

Isn't it just a case that Starfeet personnel are trained to compartmentalize, keep their cool, and to mourn death after a crisis has passed? Imagine if Starfleet personnel crumbled and lost it at the drop of a hat, too caught up in grief to concentrate on their duties in the middle of battle or during a rescue operation. More people could wind up dead that way, IMO...

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

Isn't it just a case that Starfeet personnel are trained to compartmentalize, keep their cool, and to mourn death after a crisis has passed? Imagine if Starfleet personnel crumbled and lost it at the drop of a hat, too caught up in grief to concentrate on their duties in the middle of battle or during a rescue operation. More people could wind up dead that way, IMO...

That's appropriate for "StarFleet Officers" & Adults.

But children? Seriously?
Remember, that Child was told to not mourn for the dead.

That wasn't believable from the child actor.

 

[fireproof78]

Actually, the closest onscreen depiction of "Starfleet Marines" would have been TFF. That is, behind the scenes sources say the guys on the Nimbus III raid are Marines, even though that's never made clear in the actual movie.

Indeed. And the personnel in the ship have a different colored turtleneck than other divisions, which is supposedly Marine division.

Isn't it just a case that Starfeet personnel are trained to compartmentalize, keep their cool, and to mourn death after a crisis has passed? Imagine if Starfleet personnel crumbled and lost it at the drop of a hat, too caught up in grief to concentrate on their duties in the middle of battle or during a rescue operation. More people could wind up dead that way, IMO...

How Roddenberry presented it was that death was accepted as a part of life. So, no not compartmentalized but flatly accepted.

I watch people crumble and regroup. I see it used effectively in drama, not just in Trek. That's not the idea presented.

 

[C.E. Evans]

That's appropriate for "StarFleet Officers" & Adults.

But children? Seriously?
Remember, that Child was told to not mourn for the dead.

That wasn't believable from the child actor.

Was that from TNG's "The Bonding?" and didn't that come from Worf, who was talking about how Klingons deal with death?

How Roddenberry presented it was that death was accepted as a part of life. So, no not compartmentalized but flatly accepted.

It's a philosophy that's been around since antiquity, so it's definitely not unique to Roddenberry.

I watch people crumble and regroup. I see it used effectively in drama, not just in Trek. That's not the idea presented.

I think when we do see people crumble in Trek, it's usually at a very bad time (the big conflict of the story is nearby) and they are forced to regroup quickly, if not immediately.

 

[fireproof78]

It's a philosophy that's been around since antiquity, so it's definitely not unique to Roddenberry.

Well, of course. Star Trek is hardly original.

I think when we do see people crumble in Trek, it's usually at a very bad time (the big conflict of the story is nearby) and they are forced to regroup quickly, if not immediately.

Which is how drama is to work. This is not a manual on "How to Run Your Space Faring Organization" but a story about humans encountering challenges and rising above. M*A*S*H does the same thing. Hawkeye gets news of a patient dying and sits down a moment, cursing his inability to thwart death then is back at the table.

More my question if we embrace this dramatic tool then how would it inform organizational procedure.

 

[C.E. Evans]

More my question if we embrace this dramatic tool then how would it inform organizational procedure.

Keep it together for now, mourn later? Maybe the downside of Trek being generally an adventure series is that it doesn't spend (or have) a whole lot of time showing the later.

 

[UssGlenn]

Actually, the closest onscreen depiction of "Starfleet Marines" would have been TFF. That is, behind the scenes sources say the guys on the Nimbus III raid are Marines, even though that's never made clear in the actual movie.

Indeed. And the personnel in the ship have a different colored turtleneck than other divisions, which is supposedly Marine division.

I suppose the question is what's the smoking gun that distinguishes regular Starfleet security from Marines. I was thinking the existence of a separate rank system (that fits those used by ground forces) is the most explicit evidence. Taken together the 2 data points definitely point to a separate division.

 

[The Wormhole]

Was that from TNG's "The Bonding?" and didn't that come from Worf, who was talking about how Klingons deal with death?

No, it was all the other characters telling the kid he shouldn't mourn his mother's death and that he should get over it the day it happened. Worf at least helped somewhat by suggesting the kid take part in a Klingon ritual to help him get past his mother's death, an idea which was initially dismissed by Deanna.

I suppose the question is what's the smoking gun that distinguishes regular Starfleet security from Marines. I was thinking the existence of a separate rank system (that fits those used by ground forces) is the most explicit evidence. Taken together the 2 data points definitely point to a separate division.

The thing with Colonel West is, he wears the uniform and rank insignia of a Starfleet Admiral. Since Colonel is the equivalent of a naval captain, he should have worn a standard officer's uniform with Captain's insignia. If he is indeed a Marine and had to wear that specific uniform with rank insignia, they should have addressed him as General West.

I tend to go with the explanation provided in the novels, that West was in fact a Starfleet Admiral who was just called "Colonel" because it was his nickname. Though ultimately, it's best to avoid using Colonel West to prove anything, as all he was ever meant to be was an Oliver North pastiche and he is technically from a deleted scene anyway.

 

[C.E. Evans]

No, it was all the other characters telling the kid he shouldn't mourn his mother's death and that he should get over it the day it happened. Worf at least helped somewhat by suggesting the kid take part in a Klingon ritual to help him get past his mother's death, an idea which was initially dismissed by Deanna.

They by and large were trying to find ways to help the kid deal with his grief until the alien imposter showed up and offered him an illusionary substitute and take him away. At that point, it was about saving the kid by having him face reality instead of live in a fantasy.