Is Starfleets Anti-Army Sentiment Justified¿!

[Kamen Rider Blade]

Lore Reloaded - Is Starfleets Anti-Army Sentiment Justified¿!

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I generally concur that the "Golden Era" of prosperity between the 22nd & 23rd century weakened StarFleet doctrine and the UFP put a over emphasis on StarFleet / Space Navy and didn't field a proper Ground Force and had to implement makeshift ones once the Dominion War came about.

A consequence where countless millions died due to lack of training / time / equipment / technology / preperation due to UFP / StarFleet negligence on the value of "Boots on the Ground" and Ground pounders due to the "Golden Age" of peace.

The lessons and values of United Earth's MACO were lost once UE & StarFleet formally became part of the UFP and they didn't value putting man power on the ground.

In my head canon for the 26th century, that gets rectified with a proper Ground Force being it's own branch seperate from StarFleet.

Do you think the UFP needs to create a proper Ground Force after the massive losses of StarFleet personnel on the ground due to the Dominion War and countless away missions where they're lost in a fire fight?

Especially since the Dominion War had StarFleet personnel go up against Massively Cloned Jem'Hadar soldiers who can biologically cloak.

If only we had a "Droid Army" to back up our Organic Soldiers.

 

[The Wormhole]

Starfleet is a naval service, they are not any more pro or anti army than any other naval service in history. The lack of a dedicated ground branch service in the Federation, whether it be an army or a marine corps attached to Starfleet is odd, especially given the MACOs were confirmed to have been disbanded after the Federation was formed. Of course, that just leads to a separate side discussion as to whether the MACOs were an actual military service or just the special ops division within a military service.

Eh, whatever. Worldbuilding has never been Star Trek's strength, and I don't see that changing anytime soon.

 

[StarCruiser]

World Building should be part and parcel of a well developed series/film (book etc...). I can't image Lord of the Rings or Dune without their background of World Building done by Tolkien and Herbert.

I could see the Federation taking the peace too seriously for a little too long and getting blindsided by the whole Dominion War mess. I would suspect some possible behind the scenes political issues - since there had been issues with the Cardassians and earlier issues with the Romulans and who knows who else.

 

[fireproof78]

Eh, whatever. Worldbuilding has never been Star Trek's strength, and I don't see that changing anytime soon.

Yup. Fans usually do better on this front.

The lack of ground forces is dumb.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Starfleet does have ground forces. We saw them mostly on DS9.

 

[dupersuper]

Starfleet does have ground forces. We saw them mostly on DS9.

Though they don't get force fields or any other protection until Star Trek Online.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

One would question the need for a lot of ground forces when a science ship can easily and quickly burn off a planet’s entire atmosphere. Assuming you’re not interested in occupying unfriendly cities, you’d only need one when you’re defending ground positions the enemy wants to take intact.

 

[C.E. Evans]

It's possible that each Federation member world maintains its own individual army, with Starfleet acting as more of an "international" operation. In such a case, these planetary armies could be a member world's last line of defense should Starfleet fail to stop any would-be invaders in space...

 

[Richard S. Ta]

One would question the need for a lot of ground forces when a science ship can easily and quickly burn off a planet’s entire atmosphere. Assuming you’re not interested in occupying unfriendly cities, you’d only need one when you’re defending ground positions the enemy wants to take intact.

1 science ship can't evacuate the whole population of, say, a prosperous UFP colony. Plus, we know UFP ships can be some distance away from a crisis with ships often being hours, days, or even weeks out. If an enemy occupying ground force moved in, started culling the population and secured key installations then it'd be hard to dig them out and burning the atmosphere would both:

A) Kill the people you were trying to save.

B) Leave a (potentially strategically important) UFP world uninhabitable.

A Scorched Earth policy here is a lose/lose situation which seems to fall well short of Starfleet's ideals.

I never thought about it before, but it's weird that any UFP world wouldn't have ground forces. Otherwise the UFP would be a raiders paradise. Lots of nice tech and no-one to guard it but a milquetoast population of people who come in peace.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

Though they don't get force fields or any other protection until Star Trek Online.

Don't forget ST: Voyager Elite Force also had Shields.

Funny how certain games had "Personal Shields", yet we don't see it in the shows for whatever reason.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

1 science ship can't evacuate the whole population of, say, a prosperous UFP colony. Plus, we know UFP ships can be some distance away from a crisis with ships often being hours, days, or even weeks out. If an enemy occupying ground force moved in, started culling the population and secured key installations then it'd be hard to dig them out and burning the atmosphere would both:

A) Kill the people you were trying to save.

B) Leave a (potentially strategically important) UFP world uninhabitable.

A Scorched Earth policy here is a lose/lose situation which seems to fall well short of Starfleet's ideals.

I never thought about it before, but it's weird that any UFP world wouldn't have ground forces. Otherwise the UFP would be a raiders paradise. Lots of nice tech and no-one to guard it but a milquetoast population of people who come in peace.

If you have that large a population, you would have defense ships in orbit. If the enemy forces wanted to kill the people on the ground, why wouldn't they just blow them all up from orbit? Like I said, you're talking about a very *specific* scenario where the enemy wants to take the population intact. And even then you could probably spitball ten ways to knock everyone out or create orbital threats to make them leave without a drawn out ground war.

If there is an enemy army in a position to occupy a large population on a Federation planet, it means the first several lines of defense have catastrophically failed.

 

[Richard S. Ta]

Like I said, you're talking about a very *specific* scenario where the enemy wants to take the population intact.

Take say, a Dilithium mining operation rather than a population centre then. That might be a ground station on a dustball with a workforce numbering anywhere between 50-1000. Maybe they don't have the luxury of orbital defence grids/ships. Invaders keep the miners on as slave-miners... glassing the planet from orbit is not an option.

I mean, with stealth tech and transporters then it'd be possible to slowly gather an invading ground force in a secluded part of the planet, then have that army beam into strategic areas in every key city. Beam in, give it some sturm and drang, take key-hostages and secure locations of tactical value. All while installing a defect leader of their own in the process of a coup.

With the technology on hand in Star Trek, all the above could be achieved within an hour if done right. Plus, you'd cut out the orbital ship fighting part altogether. You could spend months beaming an army into a secluded cave-system.

I really didn't think about it before I read this thread, but it does now strike me as add that the UFP doesn't seem to employ any ground forces.

 

[Shawnster]

Golden Era of the 22nd/23rd centuries? Those lost in the Klingon War might disagree. Kirk even carries those scars as evident by his statement that he was a soldier, not a diplomat. While the rest of Starfleet (and the UFP) put on a veneer as a "peace keeping armada," Kirk was honest.

There, I said it. This idea that "Starfleet isn't a military" is just propaganda. Historical records up to the 31st century prove that Starfleet is the tool used when military force is needed by the UFP. No other organization is ever referenced.

The UFP downplays Starfleet's military role and the only answer I can see is this is politics. It placate or soothes some important members of the Federation. Perhaps their membership is contingent on "the UFP does not have a military. Starfleet is not the military."

You know, KamenRiderBlade, you might actually be onto something, though. The historical record is also clear that the UFP regularly gets caught with its pants down when the occasional military confrontation happens. Perhaps Starfleet has focused too much on exploration at the expense of military preparedness. Picard and Riker balked at war games drills with the Hathaway, whereas Kirk readily accepted a war games drill when testing the M5 computer. Maybe this philosophical shift happened over time between Kirk's and Picard's eras. Maybe this is why we saw Starfleet ground forces in the Dominion War going into battle wearing office boots and lacking and sort of armor.

It's a philosophy focused on exploration that results in inadequate ground forces. It's also pragmatic. If the UFP never plans to invade and occupy foreign territory, why spend the budget on ground troops? Plus, Invading an entire planet is much more costly and resource consuming than invading a city or country on 21st century Earth. How many ground forces (and supplies) would it take to support a planetary invasion?

As mentioned, it's easier to subdue a planet from orbit. If one starship can glass a planet as General Order 24 indicates, then a large ground force isn't necessary. Of course, General Order 24 is best effective when said starship faces no opposition. A planet defended by orbital satellites, unmanned drones, or a space navy is much tougher to conquer.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

You know, KamenRiderBlade, you might actually be onto something, though. The historical record is also clear that the UFP regularly gets caught with its pants down when the occasional military confrontation happens. Perhaps Starfleet has focused too much on exploration at the expense of military preparedness. Picard and Riker balked at war games drills with the Hathaway, whereas Kirk readily accepted a war games drill when testing the M5 computer. Maybe this philosophical shift happened over time between Kirk's and Picard's eras. Maybe this is why we saw Starfleet ground forces in the Dominion War going into battle wearing office boots and lacking and sort of armor.

In the TNG era, they literally have Containers in the Cargo Bay made of "Phaser / Disruptor" resistant materials, and they refuse to make a basic Energy Blaster Resistant Chest Plate carrier.

That's how out of touch they are.

The Dominion War had StarFleet Ground Forces wearing a "All Black Jumper" with a divisional color stripe in the center. Talk about screwing up your priorities when it comes to basic Camouflage.

Look at how crappy the armor in DS9 was. At least with ENT & DISCO, they got the concept of Ground Armor & Tactical training right.

The MACO's were great IMO compared to what came before. DISCO at least had enough common sense to wear a tactical Vest as the "Minimum" when on a away mission that might involve the hint of combat.

ST:VOY Elite Force was the first time in a Video Game that I saw ST Ground personnel have any form of Shields.

Even if you could take 1-3 hits before you need to turn off the shields to actively regen the Shield Capacitor, it's better than not having any shields and getting hit.

I've ALWAYS been a advocate of calling StarFleet a ½ (Military, Space Police, Peace Keeper) & ½ (Scientific, Engineering, Explorer, with Diplomatic functionality)

At least be honest about what StarFleet & the roles they perform.

It's a philosophy focused on exploration that results in inadequate ground forces. It's also pragmatic. If the UFP never plans to invade and occupy foreign territory, why spend the budget on ground troops? Plus, Invading an entire planet is much more costly and resource consuming than invading a city or country on 21st century Earth. How many ground forces (and supplies) would it take to support a planetary invasion?

Imagine if you could mass produce "Data", but better than what happened in ST:PIC with those low quality Androids.

This is why a mix of Organic Soldiers + Many Android Soldiers is the optimum solution IMO.

1x Organic BiPaBs {Bi-(Pedal & Brachial)oids} should command 12x Android Soldiers in the field.

For the a typical Organic Army, you would've just multiplied the size of your army by 12x in the # of Boots on the ground.

Each Squad Commander could Command & Control 12x Androids split into 3x (4-Android Teams) composed of 2x (2-Android Fire Units).

Then the Squad Commander could have 3x seperate Androids watching his back while commanding the group.
Those 3x seperate Androids would be his "Personal Guards" while the 12x Android Squad would be his personal "Boots on the ground".

And then you can reinforce the Androids to be of higher quality with a good amount of Quantity.

As mentioned, it's easier to subdue a planet from orbit. If one starship can glass a planet as General Order 24 indicates, then a large ground force isn't necessary. Of course, General Order 24 is best effective when said starship faces no opposition. A planet defended by orbital satellites, unmanned drones, or a space navy is much tougher to conquer.

How often is General Order 24 ever used? I can't recall a time when the UFP / StarFleet executed that order

The Romulan Tal Shiar & Obsidian Order tried to Glass the Founder's Home Planet.
They failed miserably and had a trap sprung on them.

 

[C.E. Evans]

I was waiting to see how many posts it took before the "Starfleet is a military" thing popped up...

 

[fireproof78]

Don't forget ST: Voyager Elite Force also had Shields.

Funny how certain games had "Personal Shields", yet we don't see it in the shows for whatever reason.

Because game mechanics is not useful in real life.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

Because game mechanics is not useful in real life.

Tell that to the next person firing a projectile at you, then you'll be begging for some form of Shields.

 

[fireproof78]

Tell that to the next person firing a projectile at you, then you'll be begging for some form of Shields.

You asked why it wasn't done in Star Trek not my personal preference. So, you comment seems out of place.

 

[The Wormhole]

Maybe this is why we saw Starfleet ground forces in the Dominion War going into battle wearing office boots and lacking and sort of armor.

The lack of any kind of armor is just absolutely insane, and saying something like "Starfleet isn't military" or claiming it's the result of a shift in politics/philosophies is not an adequate explanation either. Military or not, if Starfleet feels the need to arm its personnel, it should also see the need to provide some manner of protection from armed enemies.

 

[Shawnster]

I was waiting to see how many posts it took before the "Starfleet is a military" thing popped up...

Sort of baked into the op.