I still don't think the Odyssey would have made it, because the Jem'Hadar rammed into her at full speed. Even fully shielded ships likely couldn't stop that level of force. (The Jem'Hadar used thus tactic on Klingon ships in the first battle of Chin'toka in "TEARS OF THE PROPHETS". Even Klingons won't go into battle without shields up if they have them.)
Is Starfleet Military?
- Thread starter Prometheus59650
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I still don't think the Odyssey would have made it, because the Jem'Hadar rammed into her at full speed. Even fully shielded ships likely couldn't stop that level of force. (The Jem'Hadar used thus tactic on Klingon ships in the first battle of Chin'toka in "TEARS OF THE PROPHETS". Even Klingons won't go into battle without shields up if they have them.)
No logic there, once again only a lame joke attempt.
There might not be an answer everybody is satisfied with.
Maybe we can all have our own opinion if Starfleet is military or not?
I wonder if some of this stuff might be explained by the Federation having something similar to Japan's constitution where they "officially" claim not to have a military (per se). For all practical purposes Japan does have a military, they just don't call it that, and find legalistic ways to circumvent and "reinterpret" that article of their constitution when it gets in the way.
But on paper Japan claims it's not a military just like the people who claim Starfleet isn't a military even though it has an organized force with weapons and uses them.
It would explain some of this stuff, like Major Kira claiming "I thought Starfleet didn't believe in warships" when she's shown the Defiant. Outwardly, Starfleet has to keep the pretense of not being a military, and presents that pretense to the rest of the galaxy.
But on paper Japan claims it's not a military just like the people who claim Starfleet isn't a military even though it has an organized force with weapons and uses them.
It would explain some of this stuff, like Major Kira claiming "I thought Starfleet didn't believe in warships" when she's shown the Defiant. Outwardly, Starfleet has to keep the pretense of not being a military, and presents that pretense to the rest of the galaxy.
This might be closer to the truth, where the Federation does not officially have a military, for any number of reasons and legally avoids the terminology. But, for all intents and purposes Starfleet is very much that military arm. And the hair splitting over it makes it more aggravating as if having a military is some sort of bad thing, and that only enemies of the Federation have them.
^ But Starfleet does NOT avoid the term 'military'. We have actually seen that word used, for instance in PIC when Picard is openly described as the Federation's top military strategist.
Yeah, but I'm not going by tropes. Make the hull as pretty as you want; a battleship that's been painted in peaceful looking shades of pink and blue pastel still has enough firepower to put New Zealand in orbit.
Since no such ships actually exist, it is impossible to determine. And no such ships exist because Starfleet is the equivalent of an improvised weapon... it'll do in a pinch, but it wasn't created for fighting.
But apparently that doesn't make Starfleet military, at least in this thread.
Which was... odd, IMO.
Personally, of the various "hero captains" I'd say that Picard is the least competent military strategist of the lot (though decent by the overall Starfleet standard when forced into it), and also the most committed to the "Starfleet is not a military organisation" thing (which definitely has the flavour of a legal technicality along the lines of the US Coast Guard (legally a military organisation, but considered exempt for certain restrictions because its not under DoD control) or the Japanese Self-Defence Forces (not "the military" because of political fiat for the most part)).
The scenario you propose doesn't change much.
Ablative hull armor was a second layer of skin for the ship to help better protect critical systems.
There would have been no internal armor because the Defiant had none... the armor is mainly external.
Whether quantum torpedoes would have changed much... maybe... but again, the Odyssey has Sierra pattern attack which launches 6 photons simultaneously at a target.
This would have been the same as firing 3 Quantums (approximately).
However, the Dominion had a tactical advantage because they acquired technological knowledge of UFP technology in the first 2 years since the Wormhole opened.
If the Odyssey was more powerful, they would have probably sent more fighters to ensure the Odyssey's destruction.
At the time, the Dominion was one or two steps ahead of UFP because of their intelligence and were able to anticipate and prepare in advance for possible conflicts (small or large).
The Sovereign wasn't that much more deadlier or special than the Galaxy class. It just had more up to date systems in place (that would also be installed on the Galaxy class in the next maintenance cycle - bear in mind that the reason for the delayed system upgrade would likely be because Galaxy class ships are out exploring, so they'd need to return to a Starbase to be fitted with those new torpedoes and hull armour - though some upgrades such as the phaser and shield systems would be doable in the field itself).
The ENT-D was equipped with 260 photon torpedoes for crying out loud. It was implied to be a powerhouse of a starship when it launched with formidable weapons to boot.
Had SF continued with that kind of implementation on its exploratory ships and updated those systems regularly, its likely that the Galaxy would in effect be comparable to the Sovereign at the time of its launch, if not even more powerful (at which point, you assign different mission parameters to different designs).
But again, for the Dominion scenario, it doesn't change much at the time. The Dominion would have just sent 6 or 12 fighters to intercept the (hypothetically more powerful) Odyssey and make sure it was destroyed.
Destroyers are built for speed and maneuverability. Battleships are built for durability. This would include multi-layer armor, and other provisions for kamikaze attacks. I could as easily have written in the equivalent of the Missouri's CIWS system, which would have turned the incoming JH warship into peanut butter before it could hit anything.
*Sigh* This is peaceful, versatile, "small town in space" Odyssey you're talking about. The Defiant had both quantum and photon torpedoes, and a hypothetical space battleship would have had more.
This isn't about whether the Dominion could have fielded a force capable of destroying my hypothetical spaceborne war machine... they probably could have. It's about the fact that they didn't have to. Because Starfleet didn't build them. Because Starfleet doesn't do warships. Because Starfleet isn't a military force. It's just what the Federation has.
But it also had an arboretum, a school, a daycare center, a... look, it was a small town in space, Ok? And storing 260 six-foot photon torpedoes on a ship that was almost half a mile long would not be difficult. A warship could have carried 26,000 of the things, and probably would have.
@Oddish your argument is that Starfleet is not a military because it's not a very good one?
Is the Federation's philosophy then that "We feel that a military is antithetical to our goals and ideals. We will, of course, defend ourselves when necessary. But we won't do it very well because that would be a violation of those ideals."
Damn, the Federation has got to be the luckiest political body that I've ever heard of.
Is the Federation's philosophy then that "We feel that a military is antithetical to our goals and ideals. We will, of course, defend ourselves when necessary. But we won't do it very well because that would be a violation of those ideals."
Damn, the Federation has got to be the luckiest political body that I've ever heard of.
If we're taking Picard at his word, he also stated Starfleet is not a military organisation in Peak Performance. Clearly that was his views, even as he was (reluctantly) taking part in a Starfleet war game to hone their tactical skills with the Borg (Peak Performance). And Picard was right, you weren't going to beat the Borg with military tactics, military capability is a small part of the makeup of a starship commander for the entire run of TNG, Voyager, and the first 5 seasons of DS9.
While maintaining Starfleer is not a military organisation, Picard claimed Riker had military proficiency (Icarus Factor), and Data said his program does contain military strategy (The Hunted), and Fajo described him as a military pacifist - something Data did not correct (although mentioned he could kill in self defence).
You can be a top military strategist without being part of a formal military. Kolrami was a master strategist and not part of any military structure I could see.
Note Picard didn't say that starfleet did not have a military function, just that it wasn't a military organisation. Which is fair enough - it's different to any organisation we have on Earth today. Or perhaps it's just Picard's views and the reality is different. Either way, the media statement describing Picard as a top military strategist does not offer any evidence one way or another to "Starfleet being military" (which itself is an poorly-defined question)
Starfleet is clearly a military organisation, but the military overtones were massively reduced in TNG, where the emphasis was on exploration and diplomacy. Even the weapons were smaller and Roddenberry specifically wanted them to be more tool like than generic guns.
Anyhow, as time went on and Roddenberry died, so the writers were somewhat freed from Gene's restrictive edicts and so the shows became ever more violent and the military overones more overt. For some, its great! I remember loving First Contact and DS9's battles. I would love it if the balance could be redressed somewhat though. To quote Picard, "Does anyone remember when we used to be Explorers?"
Anyhow, as time went on and Roddenberry died, so the writers were somewhat freed from Gene's restrictive edicts and so the shows became ever more violent and the military overones more overt. For some, its great! I remember loving First Contact and DS9's battles. I would love it if the balance could be redressed somewhat though. To quote Picard, "Does anyone remember when we used to be Explorers?"
No. Starfleet is not a military because it doesn't build its ships with waging war in mind.
Change the last to "...but we won't construct purpose-built warships very because that would be a violation of those ideals. And just ignore that Defiant thingy, that was a mistake and we didn't even bother perfecting it."
Maybe it is at that. Plot armor can apply to three little runabouts surviving while a Galaxy class ship got blown to hell... or all the named crew surviving on Empok Nor while the crazed Cardassians slaughter all the redshirts... or the greater polity known as the Federation.
Are they... Surprised that they keep having to do just that? I mean, over the course of a few centuries now, right? (I'm just counting ENT through TNG/DS9/VOY.)
"Damn it! We're in COMBAT again! With this stupid SCIENCE vessel! Wait, does anyone know how to fire phasers?"
"I kind of do, Sir. But I had the choice between learning how to fine tune the primary sensor array and combat training, and you said that defense wasn't our primary mission!"
"By gum, I did at that. Hell, it doesn't matter, really. Those phasers couldn't hurt a fly. I told them 'Keep those effective weapons off my ship. Why are you trying to go all Defiant class on us?'"
This assumes a binary choice.
Least we forget, the military has had a history of exploration, particularly when charged with mapping the planet while on survey missions. Even now, various armed services from around the world have been attached to scientific pursuits, most famously NASA and NOAA. It just depends on the mission parameters. That's why I liked the concept of the UESPA, and that the USS Enterprise under Kirk's command was attached to that agency, even though Kirk and crew were of Starfleet. If there were clear distinctions like this, this debate on whether Starfleet is "military" would conclude. Well, maybe not, but still...
It seems like it does. The Enterprise and other vessels were shown over and over again as capable of performing war-type missions. They also happened to be good for exploration because -- here's the part where real-world comparisons don't line up -- exploration operations were shown many times to be just as dangerous as war operations.
When the Borg and Gamma quadrant threats emerged, Starfleet had catching up to do, yes. The previously-unknown threats were now known and they could adjust. But for their known adversaries in TOS and much of TNG, the ships we know of were equal to filling wartime roles.
NOAA and NASA are uniformed services, not armed services. The former's ships have small arms lockers, but that's mainly for piracy or mutiny. And I doubt anyone's taking any guns on the space shuttle.
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