Is Starfleet Military?

[Winterwind]

Starfleet was very clearly established as the military arm of the Federation in the first season of TOS.

As for Nichelle Nichols "forcefully but tactfully" telling Meyers and Bennett it wasn't military... It was her personal opinion and, quite simply, as the saying goes: "das macht nichts".

She wasn't a writer, producer or director. She had a minor recurring role. That's it, that's all. While her work with NASA and various charitable endeavors is laudable her opinions on what Starfleet was or wasn't are inconsequential.

 

[The Wormhole]

Arguably, the Earth Starfleet circa 2151 is probably the best fit for the NASA argument.

• Their primary mission is exploration, with the defense of Earth not seeming to be a top priority for the ship or Starfleet at first.
• Starfleet appeared to send the Enterprise out with a limited armament, initially, because the Enterprise is not intended to be a warship. The Enterprise is never mentioned as "patrolling" Earth territory for threats.
• Archer makes a clear distinction between Starfleet and the military when he brings the MACOs on board.

Even making the claim that the UE Starfleet of the 2150s isn't military is contradicted by its portrayal on screen. Granted, when developing Enterprise, I will accept the writers probably did intend this version of Starfleet to be a non-military, futuristic NASA, but ultimately with the way it was portrayed onscreen, it seems very much to be just as much military as the Starfleet of the other shows. Personnel in UE Starfleet are still disciplined in a court martial, Starfleet still runs its own penal facilities (Arik Soong was held in a Starfleet run prison). Starfleet still has its own intelligence service (which still appears to be the only official one on Earth, as Section 31 is meant to be a secret) and when Phlox was kidnapped on Earth, it was investigated by an NCIS-like criminal investigations unit within Starfleet Security.

I will grant, all those examples come from the fourth season where the new writers who joined the show that year basically abandoned all the worldbuilding from the first three seasons and presented everything more in line with the other shows, though even in the second season finale, when the NX-01 was attacked by Klingons in the Sol system, it was Starfleet ships which came to their aid, suggesting Starfleet was indeed involved in Earth's defense at the time anyway.

 

[Sci]

Even making the claim that the UE Starfleet of the 2150s isn't military is contradicted by its portrayal on screen. Granted, when developing Enterprise, I will accept the writers probably did intend this version of Starfleet to be a non-military, futuristic NASA, but ultimately with the way it was portrayed onscreen, it seems very much to be just as much military as the Starfleet of the other shows. Personnel in UE Starfleet are still disciplined in a court martial, Starfleet still runs its own penal facilities (Arik Soong was held in a Starfleet run prison). Starfleet still has its own intelligence service (which still appears to be the only official one on Earth, as Section 31 is meant to be a secret) and when Phlox was kidnapped on Earth, it was investigated by an NCIS-like criminal investigations unit within Starfleet Security.

I will grant, all those examples come from the fourth season where the new writers who joined the show that year basically abandoned all the worldbuilding from the first three seasons and presented everything more in line with the other shows, though even in the second season finale, when the NX-01 was attacked by Klingons in the Sol system, it was Starfleet ships which came to their aid, suggesting Starfleet was indeed involved in Earth's defense at the time anyway.

In fairness, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense that the United Earth Starfleet would have its own intelligence service, that it would have been running its own prisons for at least twenty years, or that it would have an investigative service yet. If the NX-01 is the first United Earth ship other than Earth Cargo Service freighters and early colonial convoys to establish a major U.E. presence outside the Sol system -- that is, the first ship able to both go out and come back at reasonable speeds -- then I find it hard to believe the UESF would yet have developed those sub-agencies. It's not like there's a such thing as NASA Intelligence or NASA Criminal Investigative Service or NASA Disciplinary Barracks.

 

[Citiprime]

In fairness, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense that the United Earth Starfleet would have its own intelligence service, that it would have been running its own prisons for at least twenty years, or that it would have an investigative service yet. If the NX-01 is the first United Earth ship other than Earth Cargo Service freighters and early colonial convoys to establish a major U.E. presence outside the Sol system -- that is, the first ship able to both go out and come back at reasonable speeds -- then I find it hard to believe the UESF would yet have developed those sub-agencies. It's not like there's a such thing as NASA Intelligence or NASA Criminal Investigative Service or NASA Disciplinary Barracks.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't canon indicate that Starfleet might predate the United Earth government?

Season 1 of Enterprise is set in 2151. But per TNG's "Attached," United Earth either wasn't founded or didn't totally represent the entire planet until 2150.

So both Starfleet and the division of power within both United Earth and Starfleet could of been works-in-progress during the early years of a new government, with UE moving to give more and more military responsibilities to Starfleet as they realized what they would be facing the further out they traveled.

 

[Sci]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't canon indicate that Starfleet might predate the United Earth government?

Season 1 of Enterprise is set in 2151. But per TNG's "Attached," United Earth either wasn't founded or didn't totally represent the entire planet until 2150.

"Attached" establishes the year the last independent nations joined United Earth; it doesn't preclude United Earth from existing as an aspiring global government that had not yet unified the entire planet well before then. I don't particularly see how Starfleet could exist without a sponsoring state, so I interpret the apparent existence of Starfleet before 2150 as evidence that United Earth already existed.

The Federation Starfleet can't be the same legal organization as the United Earth Starfleet for the same reason that the Revolutionary War-era Massachusetts Naval Militia can't be the same legal organization as the United States Navy, so I assume that the United Earth Starfleet, Andorian Imperial Guard, and Vulcan and Tellarite space forces are all equally the progenitors of the Federation Starfleet.

So both Starfleet and the division of power within both United Earth and Starfleet could of been works-in-progress during the early years of a new government, with UE moving to give more and more military responsibilities to Starfleet as they realized what they would be facing the further out they traveled.

Sure, but it's implausible that they would already have had those agencies established before United Earth even had a meaningful interstellar presence. To extend my comparison -- the Massachusetts Naval Militia did not have a Massachusetts Naval Militia Intelligence division before the signing of the Constitution and the founding of the U.S. Navy. The infrastructure level of the United Earth Starfleet as established in Season One of ENT seems incompatible with the idea of a prior development of such a complex bureaucracy. But ENT often contradicted itself on how well-developed United Earth's infrastructure and bureaucracy would be throughout its run.

 

[Silvercrest]

It's not like there's a ... NASA Criminal Investigative Service

New spinoff idea. Anyone got Bellisario's phone number?

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

It's not like there's a such thing as NASA Intelligence or NASA Criminal Investigative Service or NASA Disciplinary Barracks.

Well actually...

https://www.nasa.gov/centers/wstf/about_us/protective_services/index.html

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Yeah, more on that, from https://www.hq.nasa.gov/office/ops/nasaonly/index.html:

The OPS (Office of Protective Services at NASA Headquarters) is the...

[...] NASA focal point for policy formulation, oversight, coordination, and management of Agency physical security, intelligence, counterintelligence, counterterrorism, emergency management, continuity of operations, fire services, National Security, communications security (COMSEC), classified information security, personnel security, identity and credential management, electronic physical access management, insider threat, and protective services training programs.​

 

[dswynne1]

Well, we do know that the "United Earth Space Probe Agency" (UESPA) existed in 2151, as well as "Starfleet". I am going to venture that UESPA is the NASA equivalent in this case. And, like IRL, you can have military personnel be assigned to NASA, so I am going to assume the the NX-01 Enterprise was assigned to UESPA as part of a joint project (i.e. The Warp 5 Program). It was only because of the Romulans that Starfleet proper came into prominence, which, ironically, prepared Earth for the "Earth-Romulan War". I would not be surprised that, IRL, if any present-day foreign nation with space capabilities decide to "weaponize" space (with the scenario that all nations have established space colonies, like in FOR ALL MANKIND and THE EXPANSE), the West, particularly the Americans, will most likely upgrade the US Space Force to be more like a proper "starfleet". But, will it go on to be like Starfleet? Eh.

 

[Citiprime]

Sure, but it's implausible that they would already have had those agencies established before United Earth even had a meaningful interstellar presence. To extend my comparison -- the Massachusetts Naval Militia did not have a Massachusetts Naval Militia Intelligence division before the signing of the Constitution and the founding of the U.S. Navy. The infrastructure level of the United Earth Starfleet as established in Season One of ENT seems incompatible with the idea of a prior development of such a complex bureaucracy. But ENT often contradicted itself on how well-developed United Earth's infrastructure and bureaucracy would be throughout its run.

Pure speculation on my part, but we know that Starfleet existed as an organization for decades before the launch of NX-01, since we see flashbacks of the Warp 2 program and barrier being broken. We also know from TOS's "Court Martial" that at some point in the early 22nd century the colonists on Mars felt it necessary to publish the "Fundamental Declarations of the Martian colonies" in response to something that required people to state their rights and liberties.

So Starfleet having an intelligence division and running prisons might make sense if you squint and imagine that early Starfleet had to deal with colonial uprisings, protecting cargo runs, and possibly conflicts between whatever the space forces may have been of whatever nations and interests that were holding out from forming a world government.

Admittedly, that would make Star Trek's early 22nd century sound more like The Expanse, but it's not totally unbelievable that it took humanity some time to work out the kinks of moving towards United Earth, let alone the Federation, when they first started using warp drive. And it might justify, and give the other side, of why the Vulcans were so reticent to share tech and let humanity step out on its own.

 

[Jedman67]

In fairness, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense that the United Earth Starfleet would have its own intelligence service, that it would have been running its own prisons for at least twenty years, or that it would have an investigative service yet. If the NX-01 is the first United Earth ship other than Earth Cargo Service freighters and early colonial convoys to establish a major U.E. presence outside the Sol system -- that is, the first ship able to both go out and come back at reasonable speeds -- then I find it hard to believe the UESF would yet have developed those sub-agencies. It's not like there's a such thing as NASA Intelligence or NASA Criminal Investigative Service or NASA Disciplinary Barracks.

I would imagine since the development of extra solar warp ships, that formerly domestic agencies would broaden their scope rather than a whole new agency be created from the ground up.
Frankly, once you're putting guns on a spaceship it's military. You could argue that the NX-01 was meant to be a non-militaristic ship and crew, or a military reserve type vessel, but no way of twisting it makes it not a military, at least from a legal definition.
Which brings me back to my original argument, that Starfleet is legally a military or defense force for Earth/Federation, and the focus, the mission of the ships and crews is (during NX and TNG) supposed to be focused on exploration and scientific research. They're still military, just pretending they're not; and most of them are not trained as combat soldiers.

 

[Sci]

Well actually...

https://www.nasa.gov/centers/wstf/about_us/protective_services/index.html

Yeah, more on that, from https://www.hq.nasa.gov/office/ops/nasaonly/index.html:

The OPS (Office of Protective Services at NASA Headquarters) is the...

[...] NASA focal point for policy formulation, oversight, coordination, and management of Agency physical security, intelligence, counterintelligence, counterterrorism, emergency management, continuity of operations, fire services, National Security, communications security (COMSEC), classified information security, personnel security, identity and credential management, electronic physical access management, insider threat, and protective services training programs.​

Touche! Still seems like a much smaller operation than a full-blown intelligence agency that even employs journalists as its secret agents like United Earth Starfleet Intelligence in "Demons"/"Terra Prime," though.

Well, we do know that the "United Earth Space Probe Agency" (UESPA) existed in 2151, as well as "Starfleet". I am going to venture that UESPA is the NASA equivalent in this case.

Well, in "Demons"/"Terra Prime," we see "United Earth Space Probe Agency" written on the carpet as part of the Starfleet logo. I assume that means the UESF is a division of UESPA.

I would not be surprised that, IRL, if any present-day foreign nation with space capabilities decide to "weaponize" space (with the scenario that all nations have established space colonies, like in FOR ALL MANKIND and THE EXPANSE), the West, particularly the Americans, will most likely upgrade the US Space Force to be more like a proper "starfleet". But, will it go on to be like Starfleet? Eh.

*shrugs* All I know is, at this moment, NASA is the agency that's actually sending people into space, and the USSF mostly does missiles. Personally I think it should have stayed a branch of the Air Force -- I think calling anything anyone has right now a "space force" would be like having an "air force" in the 1880s just because people have invented hot-air balloons.

Pure speculation on my part, but we know that Starfleet existed as an organization for decades before the launch of NX-01, since we see flashbacks of the Warp 2 program and barrier being broken. We also know from TOS's "Court Martial" that at some point in the early 22nd century the colonists on Mars felt it necessary to publish the "Fundamental Declarations of the Martian colonies" in response to something that required people to state their rights and liberties.

So Starfleet having an intelligence division and running prisons might make sense if you squint and imagine that early Starfleet had to deal with colonial uprisings, protecting cargo runs, and possibly conflicts between whatever the space forces may have been of whatever nations and interests that were holding out from forming a world government.

Admittedly, that would make Star Trek's early 22nd century sound more like The Expanse, but it's not totally unbelievable that it took humanity some time to work out the kinks of moving towards United Earth, let alone the Federation, when they first started using warp drive. And it might justify, and give the other side, of why the Vulcans were so reticent to share tech and let humanity step out on its own.

I don't have a problem with the idea that there were major conflicts in the Sol system in the first half of the 22nd Century. I am more sympathetic to the idea that the United Earth Starfleet was non-military for one of the same reasons I am not sympathetic to the idea the Federation Starfleet is non-military: Because unlike the FSF, we actually see another organization explicitly described as being the military in the form of the United Earth Military Command Assault Organization.

So I'm inclined to interpret the MACOs as having been in charge of United Earth defense during that early era, and to assume that the early UESF was little more than a warp-drive testing-and-building organization.

In fairness, there is a single reference to United Earth Starfleet officers being court-martialed in ENT -- from S4, "Kir'Shara." Perhaps the UESF was legally made into a military and empowered to establish a system of courts-martial during the Xindi Crisis in S3?

I would imagine since the development of extra solar warp ships, that formerly domestic agencies would broaden their scope rather than a whole new agency be created from the ground up.

Frankly, once you're putting guns on a spaceship it's military. You could argue that the NX-01 was meant to be a non-militaristic ship and crew, or a military reserve type vessel, but no way of twisting it makes it not a military, at least from a legal definition.

Possibly, but it still seems like the UESF in ENT S4 suddenly has a much larger and more sophisticated infrastructure and bureaucracy than it did in S1. Three years feels like it's a little too short of a time to build up to the point of being so large you have journalists as your secret agents.

Which brings me back to my original argument, that Starfleet is legally a military or defense force for Earth/Federation, and the focus, the mission of the ships and crews is (during NX and TNG) supposed to be focused on exploration and scientific research. They're still military, just pretending they're not; and most of them are not trained as combat soldiers.

100% with ya on that for the Federation Starfleet.

 

[NCC-73515]

She wasn't a writer, producer or director. She had a minor recurring role. That's it, that's all. While her work with NASA and various charitable endeavors is laudable her opinions on what Starfleet was or wasn't are inconsequential.

That's more of a Trek connection than most, if not all, of us
I'd also say that being the black female bridge officer and 4th (?) in command is not really minor either, but sure, her role was not as big as the big 3.
Did any other actors or production people voice opinions on this? I only found her quote on MA.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

I'd also say that being the black female bridge officer and 4th (?) in command is not really minor either, but sure, her role was not as big as the big 3.

Even if we ignore the idea that Ensign Chekov was above her in the chain-of-command -- as that's entirely based on IRL issues -- then IIRC she's no better than sixth in command after Kirk, Spock, Scotty, Sulu and DeSalle. Potentially LCDR Giotto as well, but there's no on-screen evidence for that.

 

[Farscape One]

When was it ever shown Chekov was above Uhura in the chain of command?

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

I may have been mistaken as far as Chekov goes, although I'm sure it's been mentioned in the past.

Sulu and DeSalle are specifically assigned temporary command during periods where she is still on the bridge though.

 

[Winterwind]

That's more of a Trek connection than most, if not all, of us
I'd also say that being the black female bridge officer and 4th (?) in command is not really minor either, but sure, her role was not as big as the big 3.
Did any other actors or production people voice opinions on this? I only found her quote on MA.

Is there any actual, legitimate point to your post?

The character of Uhura, was never, at any point in the original series or movies, said to be fourth in command. Every single scrap of evidence shown on screen indicates that she wasn't even in the command chain. She was the switchboard operator. Random guest stars of the week got the conn over Uhura.

What does her skin colour have to do with anything? Guess what... in the fictional universe of Star Trek, by the time of TOs, racism was a thing of the past. In real life, Star Trek wasn't as progressive as fans like to claim and the interracial cast was more an NBC policy than any vision of Roddenberry's. That's a well-known and documented fact.

So, again, what's the point of your post?

 

[Farscape One]

I may have been mistaken as far as Chekov goes, although I'm sure it's been mentioned in the past.

Sulu and DeSalle are specifically assigned temporary command during periods where she is still on the bridge though.

I'm pretty certain it was never mentioned, either.

Sulu being 4th makes sense since he was a bridge officer and helmsman, and by all evidence the tactical officer.

Uhura was communications officer, and while that is a very important position and job, just the fact communications is used basically every second makes it difficult to have that person be in command, who has to have their attention divided to make decisions to keep the ship safe.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Didn't Uhura take command during an episode of TAS?

 

[The Wormhole]

Didn't Uhura take command during an episode of TAS?

Yes, but in that episode all the male officers were incapacitated. So all this proves is that Uhura was the most senior female officer on the Enterprise.