Is Starfleet Military?

[at Quark's]

The military of Nazi Germany comes to mind: Wehrmacht. Which also could (somewhat loosely) be translated to '(self-)defense force'.

What a relief to know those guys were focusing on defense.

(Granted, Starfleet isn't anything like that. But just to show that a nice sounding name says very little.)

 

[RuleofAcuisition17]

Perhaps in TNG but not in TOS. And, as @Tallguy notes the Japanese SDF is still treated as a military, and can be incorporated in to joint task forces if necessary. It plays legal world games around to avoid some of the restrictions left over from World War 2, but doesn't quite encompass it all.

Starfleet conducts itself like a military, save for the fact that it doesn't wish to be called a military.

Which is why I'd say it was a similar situation here. the JSDF does exactly the same, despite everyone knowing what it is.

The military of Nazi Germany comes to mind: Wehrmacht. Which also could (somewhat loosely) be translated to '(self-)defense force'.

What a relief to know those guys were focusing on defense.

Congrats, you're the first person I've come across this forum to invoke Godwin's Law.

The Klingons also have a "Defence force" despite being hyper aggressive in most dealings. I suspect that was where the name came from originally for Roddenberry in the 60s and himself having gone through WW2.

 

[fireproof78]

Which is why I'd say it was a similar situation here. the JSDF does exactly the same, despite everyone knowing what it is.

Except in TOS when it is clearly a military, and Kirk treats himself as a soldier, not a diplomat, not a defense specialist, but a soldier. So, even if Starfleet modified it's mission to be closer in line to JSDF that doesn't change what it was in the past, or how it conducted itself, especially in the face of hostile actors and their aggressive tendencies. Star Trek tries way too hard to have it's cake and eat it too in terms of this question.

 

[Airmandan]

The Gerald R. Ford class aircraft carrier has a crew of roughly 4 thousand. A very small fraction of that crew is what we would consider "war fighters", I.E. those that directly go out and engage the enemy. A vast majority of them are support personal for the operation of the ship. They have a dedicated crews for operations, maintenance, security and medical. The only reason they don't have much of a science department is because what exactly would they be studying?
Everyone on the crew has to go through some kind of basic training and have to be qualified to use small arms.
The ship will make stops at some exotic locations where crew members will occasionally get in trouble with local authorities, mostly resulting in ship born punishment but occasionally causing international incidents.
The ship will frequently be on a presence/deterrence patrol, not actively seeking out combat but being prepared for the possibility of a fight. They are frequently re-tasked by headquarters leadership to areas of potential conflict to serve as a deterrent in the event of a conflict.
Doesn't that sound very similar to the crew makeup of a Starfleet vessel?

 

[at Quark's]

Congrats, you're the first person I've come across this forum to invoke Godwin's Law.

So be it then. As long as I'm making an argument that is relevant to the discussion at hand (that such a name for a military in itself says very little), I couldn't be less concerned about whether I'm invoking Godwin's law or not.

 

[RuleofAcuisition17]

Except in TOS when it is clearly a military, and Kirk treats himself as a soldier, not a diplomat, not a defense specialist, but a soldier. So, even if Starfleet modified it's mission to be closer in line to JSDF that doesn't change what it was in the past, or how it conducted itself, especially in the face of hostile actors and their aggressive tendencies. Star Trek tries way too hard to have it's cake and eat it too in terms of this question.

But I'd say we're probably entering retroactive continuity at this point. Discovery and SNW definitely point more towards the SDF model than, as you quite rightly say, is the more military bent of TOS. It was probably a more regonisable trope for the more general audience of the era too. I think we're hitting the border of what audiences would understand vs what might have been intended. Every captain after Kirk (and even Kirk towards the end and the movies) certainly became more diplomat than soldier. A good chunk of Roddenberry's own military career probably seeped into Kirk (Though I suspect Pike was his original self insert)

Considering Roddenberry's own ties to Japan I am slightly surprised he didn't go with this model from the get-go as it really would have "squared the circle" in terms of also being able to sell the show to the peaceniks, but then this idea might've been rattling around in his head from before the JSDF was formed. All we know is when he began pitching it in 1964. But after the horrors of WW2, wouldn't you begin dreaming of a better world and universe?

 

[JesterFace]

Is Starfleet Military?

Does it really matter?

 

[fireproof78]

wouldn't you begin dreaming of a better world and universe?

A better world doesn't mean I get rid of the military. That's a very strange thing.

 

[RuleofAcuisition17]

Does it really matter?

Not really, but the internet is for porn arguing about mintae on the internet.

 

[fireproof78]

Does it really matter?

In the grand scheme of things, no.

To Trek fans, yes. It impacts enjoyment.

 

[at Quark's]

Well, I consider myself a Trek fan (I'm on this board, after all). And to me it matters very little whether they're a military or not. What matters to me is they're not an aggressive military seeking to take advantage of weaknesses of other species or empires - but one that will defend if attacked.

 

[1001001]

To Trek fans, yes. It impacts enjoyment.

To SOME Trek fans, yes.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

What matters to me is they're not an aggressive military seeking to take advantage of weaknesses of other species or empires - but one that will defend if attacked.

Indeed.

Starfleet is military (if nothing else, PIC specifically calling Picard 'one of Starfleet's top military strategists' - and yes, they said that ON SCREEN - would definitely seal the deal), but they are not militaristic.

Once that difference is understood, all will be well.

 

[fireproof78]

To SOME Trek fans, yes.

True.

 

[Tallguy]

Well, I consider myself a Trek fan (I'm on this board, after all). And to me it matters very little whether they're a military or not. What matters to me is they're not an aggressive military seeking to take advantage of weaknesses of other species or empires - but one that will defend if attacked.

Well yeah. They're the good guys!

 

[The Wormhole]

Honestly, this whole issue of whether Starfleet is a military or not is starting to feel like getting into an argument over saying po-tay-to or po-tah-to.

And I'm actually shocked it took me over twenty years to realize that.

 

[fireproof78]

Honestly, this whole issue of whether Starfleet is a military or not is starting to feel like getting into an argument over saying po-tay-to or po-tah-to.

And I'm actually shocked it took me over twenty years to realize that.

It's all a matter of emphasis.

 

[Vger23]

Really? Again with this?

 

[J.T.B.]

The closest real world version of Starfleet we have at the minute on Earth is...

Why limit it to today? There might be a closer historical organization, see below.

Officially all SDF personnel are civil servents in the eyes of the Japanese Law, but hold military ranks to be able to integrate with US/NATO forces when needs be.

But unlike Starfleet, JSDF personnel are not covered by a separate legal code. No courts-martial.

Officially it's an "escort vessel".

I never understood that one. Escort vessels were the warships that did the highest proportion of fighting in both world wars.

​

Anyway, I'll say (once again) the closest thing the real world had to Starfleet was the British Royal Navy 1815-1914, and especially the Victorian era. And I'll quote (once again) one officer's thoughts about the Mediterranean fleet in which he served in the 1890s:

I don't think we thought very much about war with a big W. We looked on the Navy more as a World Police Force than as a warlike institution. We considered that our job was to safeguard law and order throughout the world — safeguard civilization, put out fires on shore, and act as guide, philosopher, and friend to merchant ships of all nations.

VAdm (ret) Humphrey H. Smith, A Yellow Admiral Remembers, 1932.​

 

[BK613]

@J.T.B. And at the time of that quote, the word 'military' wasn't really synonymous with 'armed forces.' There was a distinction between military forces (which were soldiers and land armies) and naval forces.

As I have said before, sailors are not soldiers. I spent more time peeing in the urinal the first week of boot camp than I did doing any kind of weapons training during my entire decade of service.