Poll Is Rey a Mary Sue?

[Spot261]

Only if its Rey, it seems. If Finn had done it no explanation required.

Yup. It's amazing how much people object to the force prodigy Rey being able to wield a light saber designed for exactly such a person, but they don't mention Finn (who is supposedly a bog standard mortal albeit with a penis) managing to give Kylo Ren at the very least the beginnings of a fight and saving her in the process.

 

[Spot261]

All I wanted was Rey to lose a lightsaber fight against a person who appeared to have some skill. Does anyone believe Rey will finally lose a fight with Kylo, in the last film of that Trilogy???

Neither is shown to be all that proficient when compared to how we see true Jedi portrayed in the PT. Neither would come near to touching Mace Windu, Yoda or even Obi Wan at the peak of their powers.

After all they were both trained by a guy who was essentially self taught.

 

[XCV330]

Neither is shown to be all that proficient when compared to how we see true Jedi portrayed in the PT. Neither would come near to touching Mace Windu, Yoda or even Obi Wan at the peak of their powers.

After all they were both trained by a guy who was essentially self taught.

Reminds me of the old EU again. That very question came up at least once or twice: how would the New Jedi Order have stacked up against the originals, but then the got a trial by fire with the Vong and came out of it far more skilled and confident then before, though they took terrible losses.

Qui Gon, who in some ways, set things in motion by guilting Obi Wan to train Anakin, was an adherant of the Living Force, and though that doesn't mean he did not recognize and study other aspects of it, this was key to his work and it permeated what would come later. While some of his decisions would be questionable, he was right, having, being able to teach from beyond Death, and instruct Obi Wan and Yoda to do the same. There's no doubt in my mind story wise that there is more to Rey and that she's been watched over and guided by the Living Force.

 

[Flying Spaghetti Monster]

Rey in TFA:

piloting and performing complex repairs on space ships she has never been inside before or had any training in the operation of (unless you really want us to believe that Unkhr Plott trained her in the Falcon.. really?)

Easily beating down two opponents twice her size in a physical brawl ( i seem to remember Luke getting beaten by a Tuskan and a bar brawler)

Overriding door controls on a ship she has been aboard for less than three minutes

experiencing visions and memories of events she was not a part of just so the writers can put her as the forefront hero without earning it

Immediately being trusted an accepted into the Resistance with no investigation into her background, identity or motivations. Biggs already knew Luke, but even if he didn't he just saved the princess, he was with Ben Kenobi, he saved the droid, etc

being able to resist mind control from a trained force user despite not understanding what is going on, what he is doing to her, or what allows her to resist. Plus it has been established in the films that to do this stuff you gotta clear your head. Oh she was soi excited after getting Daniel Craig to remove her her restraints that she was elated as she walked away, certainly not a clear mind when she added to leave his weapon

Being able to use Force powers equivalent to a jedi master with no training, skill or motivation

yeah yeah yea Kylo was injured but he was still a trained lightsaber combatant and a force user who could cause bolts to stop in mid air and she still beat him despite never having held a lightsaber

but my issue is that they remind of of how good she is, including talking down to or imparting lessons on others.

It makes her uninteresting .. a cheap character.

In last jedi she is worse.. she no longer has that naivete that made her somewhat relatable. now she is so dry, stilted and serious, without charm or humanity


People point out Luke lifting the saber.. I had no problem.. he had in the first film finally tapped into a power that was there, and he is trying it again. but this was less important than how he developed as a person.. so even if there were gary stu elements to his character (there weren't).. we feel like we have been with a characher who grew, who changed.. he grew from naive and arrogant .. he grew from being impatient.. into a compassionate man who understood the importance of family and redemption. We might not be able to relate to powers, but we related to his growth. Rey has not grown.

The otehr thing is that she has no clear specific goals. In the first five minutes of the Soilo movie our main character has three clear goals. Makes a huge difference when telling stories like this

 

[BillJ]

People point out Luke lifting the saber.. I had no problem..

Of course you didn’t. If it had been Rey, you’d be tossing out thousand word diatribes about how that makes her a Mary Sue.

 

[Spot261]

piloting and performing complex repairs on space ships she has never been inside before or had any training in the operation of (unless you really want us to believe that Unkhr Plott trained her in the Falcon.. really?)

Again, you imagine piloting and technical skills aren't transferable between ships?

Easily beating down two opponents twice her size in a physical brawl ( i seem to remember Luke getting beaten by a Tuskan and a bar brawler)

Luke who had never been in a fight in his life?

Rey who'd spent her life surviving as a scavenger?

If she didn't have better fighting skills at this point something would be very wrong.

Immediately being trusted an accepted into the Resistance with no investigation into her background, identity or motivations. Biggs already knew Luke, but even if he didn't he just saved the princess, he was with Ben Kenobi, he saved the droid, etc

It seemed pretty clear to me Leia had a pretty good idea who she was dealing with.

being able to resist mind control from a trained force user despite not understanding what is going on, what he is doing to her, or what allows her to resist. Plus it has been established in the films that to do this stuff you gotta clear your head. Oh she was soi excited after getting Daniel Craig to remove her her restraints that she was elated as she walked away, certainly not a clear mind when she added to leave his weapon

As opposed to being able to go toe to toe with one of the most powerful Sith ever seen in your first ever light saber fight? As in never having even duelled before or even practised the basic skills?

Being able to use Force powers equivalent to a jedi master with no training, skill or motivation

Except the motivation to stay alive, like Luke in the cave and at the Death Star?

yeah yeah yea Kylo was injured but he was still a trained lightsaber combatant and a force user who could cause bolts to stop in mid air and she still beat him despite never having held a lightsaber

Trained by whom? The same guy who went toe to toe with Vader on his first go?

We might not be able to relate to powers, but we related to his growth. Rey has not grown.

Has she not?

Seems to me she'd already done a lot of growing when we first met her, unlike Luke who was basically a spoiled brat.

As for not growing through the films, sorry but she clearly does.

 

[BillJ]

Again, you imagine piloting and technical skills aren't transferable between ships?

Which means Luke shouldn’t have been able to fly an X-Wing on day one.

 

[Spot261]

Which means Luke shouldn’t have been able to fly an X-Wing on day one.

Thanks for spoiling my little trap....lol

 

[BillJ]

Thanks for spoiling my little trap....lol

 

[Campe]

For the billionth time, if you want to add the rules that FSM wants to apply only to Rey to Luke, he never would have destroyed the Death Star let alone made it through the opening salvos of the Battle of Yavin.

 

[RandyS]

It didn't for me. But for the sequel trilogy folks who question every single choice made with regard to Rey's character, I think it is a fair question to ask. Kenobi was dead, Luke hadn't met Yoda yet, we aren't given any information about how he would come about such a power with no training.

He downloaded it from the spirit of Kenobi's mind.

Or Kenobi's spirit whispered it in his ear.

Whatever.

 

[Spot261]

He downloaded it from the spirit of Kenobi's mind.

Or Kenobi's spirit whispered it in his ear.

Whatever.

Doesn't seem quite so odd then that Rey could download mind control from Kylo, or indeed that Yoda/Obi Wan/Anakin ghost whispered it to her.

Hell, why not Palpatine?

 

[XCV330]

air speeders seem to have more in common with starfighters then what we would call aircraft, in that they don't use any kind of wings or rotors to maintain flight. Galactic civilization in GFFA has been around dozens of millenia, in fits and starts. Seems by this time that design details would have coalesced into universal simple controls that work for most common species.

It might have been difficult to step out of a Wright Flyer into a Bleriot XI in 1912. Hell, it is akward figuring out the controls on an old British motorcycle, if you are used to a modern Japanese bike, and some of those jockey shift Indian pre-war bikes look almost alien to me, and that's just their startup procedure. But they've been around awhile now, design has coalesced, and if you have a pilot licences you will know what the yoke, pedals and throttles do. This does not mean that a normal person can go from flying a Cessna 150 to a Lockheed Starfighter, but we're not talking about normal people.

If we're going with spacecraft, look at the Crew Dragon cockpit controls vs the original Space Shuttle. Interfaces coalesce into a sort of shared elegance over time. You can look at the keyboard of a pipe organ that was made in the Early renaissance and still figure out what the keys are.

So yes, Rey knows how to fly a speeder, scavenges lots of old war-era parts and can fly a ship, and already has bonus points because she's a major force user. Same with Luke, same with Anakin.

no one is going to change your mind, FSM, but you are completely wrong. But since lots of people continue to point this out, I won't pile on any further.Enjoy your containment field.

 

[fireproof78]

piloting and performing complex repairs on space ships she has never been inside before or had any training in the operation of (unless you really want us to believe that Unkhr Plott trained her in the Falcon.. really?)

Just like Luke with an X-Wing. Same rules need to be applied equally. We at least see Rey inside of spaceships pulling things apart, indicating technical knowledge we've never seen applied with Luke.

Easily beating down two opponents twice her size in a physical brawl ( i seem to remember Luke getting beaten by a Tuskan and a bar brawler)

Yes, because she has to survive.

Overriding door controls on a ship she has been aboard for less than three minutes

Yup. It's like she's been working inside of starships most of her life and knows technical knowledge. Kind of like Anakin.

experiencing visions and memories of events she was not a part of just so the writers can put her as the forefront hero without earning it

Anakin could "see things before they happen." What did he do to earn being the hero?

Apply the same rules to everyone please.

Immediately being trusted an accepted into the Resistance with no investigation into her background, identity or motivations. Biggs already knew Luke, but even if he didn't he just saved the princess, he was with Ben Kenobi, he saved the droid, etc

Nope. She had Han and Chewie to vouch for her, just like Poe vouched for Finn.

So, no.

being able to resist mind control from a trained force user despite not understanding what is going on, what he is doing to her, or what allows her to resist. Plus it has been established in the films that to do this stuff you gotta clear your head. Oh she was soi excited after getting Daniel Craig to remove her her restraints that she was elated as she walked away, certainly not a clear mind when she added to leave his weapon

I think she could figure out if someone was pushing inside her head, just like Leia could understand Luke sending her a message in ESB. Where's Leia's explanation of being able to hear Luke?

Being able to use Force powers equivalent to a jedi master with no training, skill or motivation

Such as? None of which you have stated is demonstrated to be master level ability.

yeah yeah yea Kylo was injured but he was still a trained lightsaber combatant and a force user who could cause bolts to stop in mid air and she still beat him despite never having held a lightsaber

And Rey had fought to survive for 10+ years. And you are completely ignoring the on screen evidence that Kylo was not only physically wounded but emotionally weakened as well.

Rey has not grown.

Nope. Not correct at all.

However, that has nothing to do with her being a Mary Sue. That just means she is a character you don't connect with. Nothing wrong with that, but that doesn't make her a Mary Sue, or that her skills are not establish via visual information on screen. It doesn't require exposition to establish all her skills.

So yes, Rey knows how to fly a speeder, scavenges lots of old war-era parts and can fly a ship, and already has bonus points because she's a major force user. Same with Luke, same with Anakin.

Yup, that sums it up. Luke, Anakin and Rey are all cut from the same hero's cloth. Only Rey is asked to prove her pedigree.

 

[Flying Spaghetti Monster]

haha reading all these counters is funny. None of them have said why this makes REy a good character, why this makes the storytelling good.

I mean really.

 

[Spot261]

haha reading all these counters is funny. None of them have said why this makes REy a good character, why this makes the storytelling good.

I mean really.

Remind us of the thread topic again?

I'm sure there was one specific question being asked, one which you are yet to provide a case for which delineates between Rey and Luke (or Anakin).

Or, for that matter, a coherent post.

Is Rey a Mary Sue?

If she is, what prevents Luke being one?

Why are the standards different?

Whether the film is any good is another question.

 

[fireproof78]

haha reading all these counters is funny. None of them have said why this makes REy a good character, why this makes the storytelling good.

I mean really.

That's not the point of the thread. The point is discussing being a Mary Sue and her similarity to Luke and Anakin and applying equal standards.

This is not a "Is Rey a good character?" thread.

Remind us of the thread topic again?

I'm sure there was one specific question being asked, one which you are yet to provide a case for which delineates between Rey and Luke (or Anakin).

Or, for that matter, a coherent post.

Is Rey a Mary Sue?

If she is, what prevents Luke being one?

Why are the standards different?

Whether the film is any good is another question.

Ninja'd. Well put.

 

[Masiral]

Neither is shown to be all that proficient when compared to how we see true Jedi portrayed in the PT. Neither would come near to touching Mace Windu, Yoda or even Obi Wan at the peak of their powers.

After all they were both trained by a guy who was essentially self taught.

Yeah, compared to Duel of the Fates or Battle of the Heroes, Rey vs. Kylo was not very technically impressive. It was more character-driven.

 

[fireproof78]

Yeah, compared to Duel of the Fates or Battle of the Heroes, Rey vs. Kylo was not very technically impressive. It was more character-driven.

And yet felt way more real.

 

[Campe]

haha reading all these counters is funny. None of them have said why this makes REy a good character, why this makes the storytelling good.

I mean really.

I think this is what they call moving the goal posts. Dislike the character all you want. Dislike the ST all you want. I don't think anyone will mind. We're all entitled to our opinions. But stop with the bullshitting about her being a Mary Sue just because you don't care for her.