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Is Religion Killing Good Sci-Fi Shows? [minimal politics]

Since Christianity is based on that storyline...

Christianity is based on the story of the Matrix? I must have the wrong Bible. :p

No, seriously, I think you'll get a lot of debate over whether the Matrix story is directly Christian-inspired or directly Christian-allegory. It can be seen as an allegory for other religions as well. Same with other movies, like LOTR and (as noted in the "cosmology" thread), Star Wars.

And if there's that much argument as to which religion a story represents, then it's questionable whether it represents a specific religious message at all.
 
I'm not sure anyone actually is. Jarod and knine seem to be objecting more to the mysticism, which, as Locutus and Christopher pointed out, isn't the same thing. (Whether a glut of badly-done "chosen one" stories is ruining the market is another story.)

And as Robert Maxwell mentioned, the original article is just complaining about Lost and BSG. Using those specific shows as a basis for "Is religion ruining s.f.?" is setting up a straw-man argument.
 
I think they both fell more into the genre called "magic realism," i.e. fantasy set in a familiar, grounded world rather than a medieval sword-and-sorcery type of setting, although BSG was a novel hybrid of magic realism and space opera.

Which served to expose the tremendous problems inherent in blending the genres. At least balls-out acid-trip sci-fantasy can hide behind its own audaciousness (see, Evangelion, or a Grant Morrison comic), because you never know what to expect and can treat the proceedings as figurative, as metaphorical; whereas unexplained/unexplainable elements juxtaposed against a basically literalist science fiction, almost compel the viewer to treat the fantastic elements as literal--and such is potentially deeply unsatisfying.

In any event, I never really thought of BSG ever being a soapbox for anyone's religious views, because no digestible religious views were ever on display; that divinity is incoherent is the closest the show comes to a coherent platform, and even that may possibly be accidental. The BSGod always struck me far more as an atom-thin veil over the show's various plot holes, than a statement.

As implied above, it is not religion specifically, but messianic tropes (familiar from religious stories, since that's how many of them began) which are the problem. A messianic streak crowbarred into the story has ruined plenty of science fiction that otherwise traded in interesting ideas or visuals or characters, such as Star Wars, the previously mentioned Matrix, and of course BSG. (Yet, satisfyingly, not The One. :p )

It's rather troubling how many people want to watch or read about a chosen one; I'm more interested in those who choose.

One quote from the essay...

The hero of the story, Zoe, was virtually missing from the story with nearly 75 percent of the screen time in the past two episodes spent on the religious zealotry of Sister Clarice and Soldiers of the One internal battle for religious control.
...makes me glad that I skipped Caprica. Because while a show about the development of artificial intelligence would be interesting as fuck, I reckoned correctly that Caprica would not be such a show.
 
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I think they both fell more into the genre called "magic realism," i.e. fantasy set in a familiar, grounded world rather than a medieval sword-and-sorcery type of setting, although BSG was a novel hybrid of magic realism and space opera.

Which served to expose the tremendous problems inherent in blending the genres.

I think the main "problem" in a case like that is one of audience expectations. It's not wrong to try something that doesn't fit into the expected categories, but it can be hard for audiences to open their minds to it. I'm guilty of that myself; BSG came out and told us all along that there was mystical stuff going on, but I held out believing there might be a rational explanation for it all, so it wasn't until the finale that I realized that the show had been in a different genre all along than I thought it was. And once I understood that, the show worked a lot better for me. It wasn't the show's fault that I was trapped by limited assumptions.
 
I hate doing this (because it's only my responsibility to make my posts cogent by the time someone reads them :p ), but I think my additions that statement elaborate on what I mean by it.

BSG, ultimately, was far too literal in tone to be taken as a figurative show. The show created those assumptions. The bloggery was wrong about a lot of stuff, but "a show about robots should not be a show about angels" (again, unless it's Evangelion or a Grant Morrison comic) is a fine maxim.

(Btw, I like "mystical"; I kept fighting the urge to use the word "supernatural" to complain about elements I didn't like in a show that revolved around faster-than-light travel;)).
 
I'm just getting terribly tired of storylines about "chosen ones" and prophecies and shit.

Thirded. I'll agree, that's something of a separate question from the OP but I think it's a much more pressing problem in our fantasy stories today. It's like, instead of coming up with an interesting protagonist, these writers decide to just brand the hero as a "chosen one" and hope that we'll buy it. It's not so bad in stories that really seem built around this "chosen one" concept, like Dune & The Matrix. However, we've got a lot of bizarre examples where the "chosen one" angle is just suddenly dropped in there for no particularly good reason, like the Star Wars prequels or Tim Burton's Alice in Wonderland.:wtf:

It's possible to have a compelling protagonist who becomes something of a man of destiny without the crutch of everyone else in the story whispering, "You are the chosen one." Look at Luke Skywalker in the original Star Wars. No one mentions anything about his special destiny. He becomes an unlikely hero by taking a moral stand against the Empire and transferring his agrarian piloting skills into a military stetting.
 
As for the original question, I don't think you can say that religion is ruining good sci-fi shows in a broad sense. Honestly, I can't really think of any recent sci-fi shows beyond Battlestar Galactica & Lost that deal with religion in any large degree.

I would say that Battlestar Galactica was somewhat spoiled by being a political metaphor for today's religious conflicts. Too often, it was aiming to be "important" rather than "entertaining."
 
As for the original question, I don't think you can say that religion is ruining good sci-fi shows in a broad sense. Honestly, I can't really think of any recent sci-fi shows beyond Battlestar Galactica & Lost that deal with religion in any large degree.

I would say that Battlestar Galactica was somewhat spoiled by being a political metaphor for today's religious conflicts. Too often, it was aiming to be "important" rather than "entertaining."

I was always really taken aback by how BSG was suddenly topical in the mid-2000s, specifically during the war in Iraq, because "WE were the insurgents now omgwtfbbq!!!!111oneuneодин" (Okay, the archaic netspeak was optional.)* It's like the people who thought it was some profound comment had never seen a science fiction televisual production before; humans, very often white male American humans, are only insurgents in about half of it...

*And whatever happened to the "!!!1point nine repeating" kind of jokes, anyway? Did we all become better typists? That stuff was timeless.
 
The supernatural was dragged into Lost because they screwed up the plot so badly they couldn't do anything else. It was not the cause but the effect.

The finale of the new BattleStar Galactica harked back to the beginning of the series, when the series was about the 9/11 parallels. (This is why the turgid flashbacks, which were essentially retcons to illustrate the religious sin/tribulation/salvation motif.) The action climax was the dead hand of God smiting the Muslims and saving the Chosen People. (If Ruth the Moabitess was good enough to be an ancestress of David the King, then a TV show can throw a Cylon into the human pedigree. Then congratulate itself on it boldness.:lol:) Since the show was always about religious war (and much loved for it,) rejecting the end is the same as rejecting the entire series. But no one can honestly pretend to be surprised by it.

Speaking in general, bad science has always done terrible damage to scifi shows.
Religion's opposition to science makes it a particularly bad fit even to television scifi. Religion, belief in magic, etc. are just wishful thinking that tries to ignore reality. This kind of nonsense serves only as trivial escapism, even when novel elements are presented.

Distinctions between religion and "spirituality" are absurd. Respect for religion justifies many, many kinds of ideas, such as puritianism, racism, chauvinism both sexual and national, homophobia, and so on.

Trying to redefine some sort of vague feeling of reverence that conveniently doesn't leave one defending such commonly despied attitudes as, nevertheless, God's will still forgets two things. First, religion fosters superstitition for the utilitarian reason that it is an institution that relies on it. Second, the notion that spirituality is esthetically or morally superior is at bottom the same old bigoted idea that unbelievers are just plain evil.

The desire to believe in magic doesn't just damage television shows, it damages lives, so it seems a little over-focused to complain about how it messes up final episodes, though.
 
One quote from the essay...

The hero of the story, Zoe, was virtually missing from the story with nearly 75 percent of the screen time in the past two episodes spent on the religious zealotry of Sister Clarice and Soldiers of the One internal battle for religious control.
...makes me glad that I skipped Caprica. Because while a show about the development of artificial intelligence would be interesting as fuck, I reckoned correctly that Caprica would not be such a show.

Well, to be fair, that quote is only describing the past couple of episodes. The show covers a number of different themes, and I'm sure they will be getting back to the AI stuff.

That said, I haven't been enjoying the show much myself lately, because there is a lot of stuff going on that doesn't appeal to me, like a lot of stuff with mobsters.



I hate doing this (because it's only my responsibility to make my posts cogent by the time someone reads them :p ), but I think my additions that statement elaborate on what I mean by it.

BSG, ultimately, was far too literal in tone to be taken as a figurative show. The show created those assumptions. The bloggery was wrong about a lot of stuff, but "a show about robots should not be a show about angels" (again, unless it's Evangelion or a Grant Morrison comic) is a fine maxim.

I reject any attempt to define what story tellers "should not" do. That way lies rigidity at best, censorship at worst. It is always worthwhile to try new things, to challenge people's assumptions about what "should" be. In fact, it is imperative to challenge those assumptions.

What you're saying is a fair point as far as it goes, but I stand by my position: it's a matter of what the audience is used to or willing to consider. These days, there's a lot of magic realism, fantasy fiction that's set in the modern world with modern technology rather than the usual medieval fantasy setting. I'm sure there were people who were thrown off by that when the genre was first starting out, but that doesn't mean it was invalid to do it.

There is fiction out there that blends robots and angels, or the equivalent. Such as Diane Duane's Young Wizards universe, in which some of the wizard characters interact with magic through computers. So to say that such things "should not" be blended is naive, narrow-minded, and just plain wrong. It's been done, and it's worked. There's no guarantee it'll work in every case, no, but "should not?" No. To me as a writer, that attitude is just plain chilling.
 
I think the main "problem" in a case like that is one of audience expectations. It's not wrong to try something that doesn't fit into the expected categories, but it can be hard for audiences to open their minds to it. I'm guilty of that myself; BSG came out and told us all along that there was mystical stuff going on, but I held out believing there might be a rational explanation for it all, so it wasn't until the finale that I realized that the show had been in a different genre all along than I thought it was. And once I understood that, the show worked a lot better for me. It wasn't the show's fault that I was trapped by limited assumptions.

I don't think so, BSG nearly always implied that something else was going on until late in the series, and by then no rational explanation was really possible. Lost was shit from day one so I don't know what people were expecting there.

Anyway I don't think religion is killing modern sci fi, it's just that the execution of it's inclusion in two popular genre shows ranged kind of cheap to being fucking stupid sappy obvious horseshit. I can't really think of any recent televised examples offhand except SGU, but that show doesn't count because it's a cheap knockoff of BSG anyway.
 
Why not go for broke, and explain how insistence on correct spelling, good grammar, logical plots, consistent characterization, elementary coherence, good taste, simple decency, etc. are all "naive, narrow-minded and just plain wrong(?)"

I am quite sure that many professional writers find a critical attitude "chilling."

Lost was a bad show because it bungled the characters and didn't have anything else. (Personally I'm slow on the uptake and didn't realize how awful the characterization on Lost was until Sawyer was shot, then operated on himself to remove the bullet with his fingers.:guffaw:)

BattleStar Galactica was a bad show because it pandered to the kind of people who thought the annihilation of a whole race of creatures was a cracker jack of an grand finale.
 
Tiffany Voght said:
Will the sci-fi community ever trust Carlton Cuse, Damon Lindelof, Ronald D. Moore and David Eick to write a sci-fi show again?

Until this moment I had no inkling that the "sci-fi community" was a monolithic bloc of morons.

I suspect that it's really not, and that the writer is projecting personal tastes and prejudices onto a whole lot of other people.
 
The bloggery was wrong about a lot of stuff, but "a show about robots should not be a show about angels" (again, unless it's Evangelion or a Grant Morrison comic) is a fine maxim.

What about putting robots into a fantasy series, like Buffy/Angel occasionally did ("I Robot, You Jane," "Ted," "I Was Made to Love You," "Intervention," "Lineage," etc.)
 
What about putting robots into a fantasy series, like Buffy/Angel occasionally did ("I Robot, You Jane," "Ted," "I Was Made to Love You," "Intervention," "Lineage," etc.)

For that matter, there's plenty of manga/anime and probably Japanese fiction in general that blends high tech and mysticism, since Japanese beliefs are animist, based on the principle that everything is imbued with a spirit. This is seen everywhere from lowbrow stuff such as Super Sentai (aka Power Rangers), where the giant battle robots are often avatars of animal spirits, to the highest of highbrow stuff such as Serial Experiments Lain, which involves the possibility of the emergence of God within cyberspace. Merging the divine with the technological has been done very successfully in fiction. It's just not something that American TV or movie audiences are used to seeing. (At least, not in a serious dramatic context. Consider Ghostbusters.)
 
Tiffany Voght said:
Will the sci-fi community ever trust Carlton Cuse, Damon Lindelof, Ronald D. Moore and David Eick to write a sci-fi show again?

Until this moment I had no inkling that the "sci-fi community" was a monolithic bloc of morons.

Don't worry. "The sci-fi community" refers to a small town full of fanboys in an obscure part of North Dakota. Everyone else can ignore the post. ;)
 
One quote from the essay...

The hero of the story, Zoe, was virtually missing from the story with nearly 75 percent of the screen time in the past two episodes spent on the religious zealotry of Sister Clarice and Soldiers of the One internal battle for religious control.
...makes me glad that I skipped Caprica. Because while a show about the development of artificial intelligence would be interesting as fuck, I reckoned correctly that Caprica would not be such a show.

Well, to be fair, that quote is only describing the past couple of episodes. The show covers a number of different themes, and I'm sure they will be getting back to the AI stuff.

That said, I haven't been enjoying the show much myself lately, because there is a lot of stuff going on that doesn't appeal to me, like a lot of stuff with mobsters.

I've avoided Caprica, as I've just kinda assumed that Caprica would be about as interested in AI as BSG was.

I reject any attempt to define what story tellers "should not" do. That way lies rigidity at best, censorship at worst. It is always worthwhile to try new things, to challenge people's assumptions about what "should" be. In fact, it is imperative to challenge those assumptions.
A fine sentiment, well expressed.

There's nothing wrong with self-censoring ideas that are merely bad, however.

What you're saying is a fair point as far as it goes, but I stand by my position: it's a matter of what the audience is used to or willing to consider. These days, there's a lot of magic realism, fantasy fiction that's set in the modern world with modern technology rather than the usual medieval fantasy setting. I'm sure there were people who were thrown off by that when the genre was first starting out, but that doesn't mean it was invalid to do it.

There is fiction out there that blends robots and angels, or the equivalent.
Of course there is. I mentioned two. Evangelion and (to put a name on it) Grant Morrison's JLA (actually a whole hell of a lot of superhero comics). In both cases, our heroes inhabit a less literal world than Moore and Eicke built on BSG. Giant robots fight alien angels and the world ends because Shinji is a creep; Doctor Strange, Sorcerer Supreme, coexists with Captain America, steroid user. These worlds are emphatically not real.

Sandman was a magical realist work of a sort, too. There, the point was that the world was only as real or less real than the imagination.

The difference in all these is that they put it on the table. Issue 1 of Sandman, Morpheus is imprisoned by a magical circle. In Zauriel's first appearance in JLA, he's followed by the Host of Heaven who burn down half San Francisco and pull the moon out of its orbit. In the first episode of Evangelion, there's a giant alien angel that gets beaten up by a kid in a gross robot suit while he tries to go five minutes without masturbating. Probably. It's been a while since I've seen Evangelion.

The BSG miniseries, as I recall, was about robots who didn't like humans. Religion is mentioned, but treated as religion--as a piece of worldbuilding.

Imagine if Terminator Salvation, the fourth installment of the series, didn't just suck, but featured Sol Invictus coming out of the sky and saving humanity from Christian Bale's Batman voice and also robot overlords.

It's been done, and it's worked. There's no guarantee it'll work in every case, no, but "should not?" No. To me as a writer, that attitude is just plain chilling.
Oh, it oughtn't be. It's just that works, and genres, often create expectations in their audience, and to dash those expectations must be done with the greatest of care, if at all, and technically adroitly.

I'm not the hugest fan of Buffy, but when Whedon merged musical tropes with a fantasy-dramedy in "Once More With Feeling," there was a genre-appropriate rationalization for all the singing and the song-and-dance was adeptly performed and used to further plot and thematic purposes in a satisfying manner.

As a counterexample from the same show, those geek rapist-murderer guys were painful anytime they were on screen. Yeah, the Buffy sexbot joke was retarded funny,* but I can't imagine a much more obviously foreign element to the show than a sociopathic Anthony Michael Hall, and it didn't work.

Bringing us back to Battlestar Galactica: closing BSG with a musical number would have been at least as appropriate to the show as the rapture of Zombie Kara Thrace. But while it is fair to say that they laid some groundwork for a mystical twist to BSG, it was handled in a technically poor manner, and forced into story with a sledgehammer's sensitivity.

Did anyone, even fans of the finale, find the Opera House premonition to be satisfyingly fruited by the Opera House shots being literally recreated on the Galactica sets, all to accomplish Baltar running two yards down a hallway and doing little of note?

And on a grander scale, the problems with divine intervention are legion, because no matter how convoluted divine intervention winds up in execution, when used as the engine of the plot, God's "Plan" should always--like a well-constructed thriller--be evident, explicable, even obvious in retrospect. None of this can be easily said about BSGod.

As I said, the finale highlighted (highlit?) all the problems inherent in blending the two genres.

Could it never have worked? I dunno. It would have required surer hands than Moore and Eike seemed to possess in regards to how they expected their space opera to play out.**

Given the pitfalls, a maxim such as "IF robots, NO angels" is to be observed. Maxims may be ignored and rules may be broken; and yet it's fair criticism to declare that a work's reach exceeds its grasp if it can't pull off the breach.

Now, I guess with a really literal reading of the maxim, Star Wars would be right out. However, numerous threads here have shown the Force does sometimes coexist uncomfortably alongside the more SFnal elements of Star Wars, to the extent that they have to trade one for the other.

The attempt to have both gave us midichlorians. Make of that what you will.

*And, given how that worked out, apparently flattering. It seems that nothing is more impressive to a woman than banging her robotic doppelganger. And yet Athena didn't think it was that cool.
**Perhaps at all. I'm unsure of Moore's influence over the Pah Wraiths arc, but the final episodes of DS9 collectively form another example of science fiction and mysticism crossing paths and leaving each other and the audience poorer for it. In DS9, it is far more obvious that the problem is structural, than it is for BSG.
 
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If either of the Lost or BSG finales came out of nowhere, you could make this type of argument. The truth is that although the exact details of the finales may have changed in the writers minds, the religious/spiritual nature of them had been foreshadowed from early on in both series.

And as to the original argument, saying that religion has no place in science fiction is as ignorant as denying scientific theories such as evolution in the name of religion. Faith and spirituality (whether or not this involves religion or God) are as integral to the human experience as scientific inquiry.
 
The supernatural was dragged into Lost because they screwed up the plot so badly they couldn't do anything else. It was not the cause but the effect.

The supernatural and spiritual mixed with science was an integral part of 'Lost' from the very first episode. The black smoke, the dead coming back to life, psychic phenomena, and the struggle of good vs evil as represented by the white and black stones were included right from the start. If you don't like them that's fine, but it's disingenuous to say that it was a last minute inclusion when they wrote themselves into a corner.
 
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