I voted "yes" because I think the cube was probably strong enough to survive, and the hologram is still running. But I'm not really comfortable with phrasing it that they are alive.
Is Professor Moriarty "dead?"
- Thread starter Vanyel
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Holmes enthusiasts probably sneak into the program via holodeck interface in order to 'meet the legend'.
^ Since from his perspective, he got exactly what he wanted, I doubt he would care.
I really need a definition of "alive" but I'll vote yes. I'll take "alive" to mean "a complex pattern capable of interacting with its environmental substrate under its own volition and of reproducing to preserve aspects of its pattern". Even if the cube were destroyed, I assume that regular backups would have been taken allowing its state to be restored.
Do you mean multiple holocubes? Each with a duplicate of the Professor and Countess? I'd be worried, like was mentioned above, that one of those back ups might realize he's been tricked and try something during the back up. Even if he didn't do anything, one of the duplicates made after that one might figure out a way to escape or take over the computer of the ship, station or institute. He can run his own simulation of his simulation to figure out how to do it.
A backup in my definition is just a recording of the machine state at a particular moment - it isn't running on a processor.
I agree that it would have been pretty ridiculous to have left the cube on-board the Enterprise for anyone to happen across. Either the cube was sent to Daystrom or Reg took it with him when he went to work with/for Dr. Zimmerman.
Either possibility would allow for the program to continue running and therefore they would be 'living' out their lives and having adventures even after the Enterprise's destruction.
Although, I'd be interested in the possibility of Moriarty and the Countess starting a family along with their adventures
My favorite line of that episode is when Reg says, "Computer, end program.", and nothing happens.......or does it
Either possibility would allow for the program to continue running and therefore they would be 'living' out their lives and having adventures even after the Enterprise's destruction.
Although, I'd be interested in the possibility of Moriarty and the Countess starting a family along with their adventures
My favorite line of that episode is when Reg says, "Computer, end program.", and nothing happens.......or does it
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I agree that it would have been pretty ridiculous to have left the cube on-board the Enterprise for anyone to happen across. Either the cube was sent to Daystrom or Reg took it with him when he went to work with/for Dr. Zimmerman.
Either possibility would allow for the program to continue running and therefore they would be 'living' out their lives and having adventures even after the Enterprise's destruction.
Although, I'd be interested in the possibility of Moriarty and the Countess starting a family along with their adventures
My favorite line of that episode is when Reg says, "Computer, end program.", and nothing happens.......or does it
When did Reg leave the 1701D? He wasn't shown in Generations, but he was aboard the 1701E in First Contact. So if Reg kept it, it's possible it was aboard the 1701D when she was destroyed. I do admit that it could have been transported to the Daystrom Institute at any point when Enterprise rendezvoused with another ship headed back towards Earth (or wherever the DI is located). The holocube could easily be labeled as "high risk", to keep it under lock and key, so to speak.
Also, let's assume Reg did keep it and he was aboard Enterprise during the events in Generations would he have had time to to go to his quarters, or wherever the holocube was stored, to secure it, or get it aboard the saucer? Weren't most on the Starfleet crew too busy making sure the civilians were aboard the saucer and in secured areas?
It isn't exactly clear where Reg was at the time of the E-D's crash. We know that sometime between "Genesis" and "First Contact" that he had spent time at Jupiter Station assisting Doc Zimmerman with the EMH program ("Projections"). Whether this assignment occurred before or after the crash is speculation.
Harry Kim said that the Moriarity program was a topic of study at the Academy. Apparently the relalation of Moriarity had spread far beyond the confines of the Enterprise crew. I would think it likely that the program was transferred to the Daystrom Institute for further study.
It would make a nifty novel if, after Zimmerman was cured of his illness in "Life Line", he used his new lease on life to study Moriarity; perhaps in a misguided attempt to give his assistant Haley sentience, which has disasterous results.
Harry Kim said that the Moriarity program was a topic of study at the Academy. Apparently the relalation of Moriarity had spread far beyond the confines of the Enterprise crew. I would think it likely that the program was transferred to the Daystrom Institute for further study.
It would make a nifty novel if, after Zimmerman was cured of his illness in "Life Line", he used his new lease on life to study Moriarity; perhaps in a misguided attempt to give his assistant Haley sentience, which has disasterous results.
I agree that it would have been pretty ridiculous to have left the cube on-board the Enterprise for anyone to happen across. Either the cube was sent to Daystrom or Reg took it with him when he went to work with/for Dr. Zimmerman.
Either possibility would allow for the program to continue running and therefore they would be 'living' out their lives and having adventures even after the Enterprise's destruction.
Although, I'd be interested in the possibility of Moriarty and the Countess starting a family along with their adventures
My favorite line of that episode is when Reg says, "Computer, end program.", and nothing happens.......or does it
When did Reg leave the 1701D? He wasn't shown in Generations, but he was aboard the 1701E in First Contact. So if Reg kept it, it's possible it was aboard the 1701D when she was destroyed. I do admit that it could have been transported to the Daystrom Institute at any point when Enterprise rendezvoused with another ship headed back towards Earth (or wherever the DI is located). The holocube could easily be labeled as "high risk", to keep it under lock and key, so to speak.
Also, let's assume Reg did keep it and he was aboard Enterprise during the events in Generations would he have had time to to go to his quarters, or wherever the holocube was stored, to secure it, or get it aboard the saucer? Weren't most on the Starfleet crew too busy making sure the civilians were aboard the saucer and in secured areas?
True that Reg was in First Contact, but who is to say that the cube wasn't sent off ship, i.e. Daystrom or other institute, but then when Reg did go to work with Dr. Zimmerman that he couldn't have requested or that maybe Dr. Zimmerman had requested the cube for safe keeping and or study.
Since the writers never really expounded on what happened to the cube after that episode all we can really do is speculate. But I think it would make a good story arc for one of the books. Quite a few of us still are thinking about it and commenting on it. Could be a good story within a story
AFAIK, the only other time that Moriarty was mentioned at all - apart from TNG's "Elementary, Dear Data" and "Ship in a Bottle" and VOY's "Alter Ego" - was a bit in ST:Online. There it's said that a group called the 'Soong Foundation' (which specializes in securing rights for artificial life forms) sued for custody of Moriarty's program.
No novel appearances that I am aware of.
As for Moriarty's sentience: Yes, I believe he is a fully sentient life form. He sure acts like it. And it would be impossible to prove otherwise. He is aware of his own existence (as a hologram) and attempts to preserve it. That makes him sentient. Just as much as the EMH and Vic Fontaine. They are alive, and so are Moriarty and the Countess.
No novel appearances that I am aware of.
As for Moriarty's sentience: Yes, I believe he is a fully sentient life form. He sure acts like it. And it would be impossible to prove otherwise. He is aware of his own existence (as a hologram) and attempts to preserve it. That makes him sentient. Just as much as the EMH and Vic Fontaine. They are alive, and so are Moriarty and the Countess.
I think we all need to clarify a few things.
The biggest one being that Star Trek mis-used the term "sentient."
Strictly speaking there's nothing special about being sentient most animal life on earth is sentient. Sentience is little more than displaying some measure or two of thought and independent action beyond biological urge and desire. Pretty much the entire mammal kingdom is sentient. Watch how an animal behaves and you see they have some capacity beyond "eat, sleep, poop" and even a measure of capacity for love and other emotions. Many insects and arachnids, however, aren't sentient as for the most part they seem only capable of biological desires not to mention having too small of brains.
Sapience is a whole other ball of wax and only some apes and other simians and dolphins to some degree have show sapience along with humans. Sapience is more what Star Trek gets at when talking about other species. Sapience is more about not just having thought but also being able to, or have the desire to, expand one's own knowledge and understanding of surroundings as well as have even having a measure or two of self-awareness. Knowing who one's self is beyond others of their species and their own place in the universe and the capability and potential within.
One could argue that in Trek's time the two terms were mostly merged so that "Sapience" wouldn't seem too Earth/Human-centric to aliens. (Homo Sapiens.)
Now, was Moriarty "sapient"? I'm not entirely convinced he was, aside from what his stories want us to believe. The biggest issue I have with it is how Moriarty would have gained this simply through a mis-spoken command into the computer. I would think getting true sapience/sentience is a just a bit more complicated than that. Data's grasp of these things came from decades or centuries of building research in the Soong family. Life in the universe got it from eons of evolution and development and exposure to the universe itself.
Moriarty gets it by Geordi saying "Data" instead of "Holmes" into a holodeck?
I. Think. Not.
I think Moriarty displays sentience/sapience and shows it but simply because holoprograms are good at showing it. Cyrus Redblock in "The Big Goodbye" seemed to accept a "real world" pretty easily as well as grabbing who and what he was (not to mention Picard's police buddy.) But everyone was far less willing to show them any level of humanity that they do to Moriarty.
Moriarty is a holoprogram, nothing more. A very unique one for sure, but that is all he is. That he was able to use the Enterprise computer was nothing more than a programming glitch in the system that allowed it to so easily give a holocharacter that capability. Really pushed I'd say Moriarty is no more sentient/sapient than the Enterprise or any other 24c computer is and we know that since as a matter of policy Starfleet destroys them in certain circumstances we know how far that may stretch.
Holodoc, Vic Fontaine all pretty much the same. They're all very good at showing sentience/sapience but I don't believe they truly have it.
Now. Is Moriarty "dead." I do not believe so. First of all since he's a holocharacter one could argue he does not age. "a life time of experiences" was probably a touch of hyperbole on Brcalay's part. A "lifetime" for them could be as long as the power-supply holds out on the device or probably more so until the chips/circuitry in it degrades. The device looked pretty hardy so I doubt it would have been damaged in the crash of the E-D, but I agree with the doubt that it was even on the E-D as it probably was sent to Daystrom for heavy study.
The biggest one being that Star Trek mis-used the term "sentient."
Strictly speaking there's nothing special about being sentient most animal life on earth is sentient. Sentience is little more than displaying some measure or two of thought and independent action beyond biological urge and desire. Pretty much the entire mammal kingdom is sentient. Watch how an animal behaves and you see they have some capacity beyond "eat, sleep, poop" and even a measure of capacity for love and other emotions. Many insects and arachnids, however, aren't sentient as for the most part they seem only capable of biological desires not to mention having too small of brains.
Sapience is a whole other ball of wax and only some apes and other simians and dolphins to some degree have show sapience along with humans. Sapience is more what Star Trek gets at when talking about other species. Sapience is more about not just having thought but also being able to, or have the desire to, expand one's own knowledge and understanding of surroundings as well as have even having a measure or two of self-awareness. Knowing who one's self is beyond others of their species and their own place in the universe and the capability and potential within.
One could argue that in Trek's time the two terms were mostly merged so that "Sapience" wouldn't seem too Earth/Human-centric to aliens. (Homo Sapiens.)
Now, was Moriarty "sapient"? I'm not entirely convinced he was, aside from what his stories want us to believe. The biggest issue I have with it is how Moriarty would have gained this simply through a mis-spoken command into the computer. I would think getting true sapience/sentience is a just a bit more complicated than that. Data's grasp of these things came from decades or centuries of building research in the Soong family. Life in the universe got it from eons of evolution and development and exposure to the universe itself.
Moriarty gets it by Geordi saying "Data" instead of "Holmes" into a holodeck?
I. Think. Not.
I think Moriarty displays sentience/sapience and shows it but simply because holoprograms are good at showing it. Cyrus Redblock in "The Big Goodbye" seemed to accept a "real world" pretty easily as well as grabbing who and what he was (not to mention Picard's police buddy.) But everyone was far less willing to show them any level of humanity that they do to Moriarty.
Moriarty is a holoprogram, nothing more. A very unique one for sure, but that is all he is. That he was able to use the Enterprise computer was nothing more than a programming glitch in the system that allowed it to so easily give a holocharacter that capability. Really pushed I'd say Moriarty is no more sentient/sapient than the Enterprise or any other 24c computer is and we know that since as a matter of policy Starfleet destroys them in certain circumstances we know how far that may stretch.
Holodoc, Vic Fontaine all pretty much the same. They're all very good at showing sentience/sapience but I don't believe they truly have it.
Now. Is Moriarty "dead." I do not believe so. First of all since he's a holocharacter one could argue he does not age. "a life time of experiences" was probably a touch of hyperbole on Brcalay's part. A "lifetime" for them could be as long as the power-supply holds out on the device or probably more so until the chips/circuitry in it degrades. The device looked pretty hardy so I doubt it would have been damaged in the crash of the E-D, but I agree with the doubt that it was even on the E-D as it probably was sent to Daystrom for heavy study.
So if you figured out that all of reality was a simulation (and I imagine he probably would figure it out), that wouldn't bother you? I imagine it would bother Moriarty quite. A. Bit.
Moriarty wanted a life outside the Enterprise, where he and the Countess could explore the universe as they desired. He got exactly that. The fact that his reality is a simulation is irrelevant; it's still his reality. In any case, since his program is now entirely self-contained inside the cube, it's not like he could possibly do anything about it, right?
As for his intelligence and 'sapience': He haz it. If Moriarty can act sentient, then in every way that matters (and can be tested), he IS sentient. How could we possibly prove otherwise? We can't prove that WE are sentient any more than he could do for himself...
As for his intelligence and 'sapience': He haz it. If Moriarty can act sentient, then in every way that matters (and can be tested), he IS sentient. How could we possibly prove otherwise? We can't prove that WE are sentient any more than he could do for himself...
I guess we could assume that since Starfleet Academy mentions Moriarty in it's coursework that Starfleet has him safely tucked away being studied somewhere. Since Barclay was in charge of Moriarty's safekeeping. And Barclay later worked for Dr Zimmerman. And Dr Zimmerman developed the holegraphic Doctor. Could we extrapolate that the Doctor was developed from Moriarty?
I could see the Daystrom Institute contacting Moriarty in virtual reality and asking for him to take time out from his adventures to come by help the Institute on a special project. With all of his interactions with the staff being done in virtual reality.
I could see the Daystrom Institute contacting Moriarty in virtual reality and asking for him to take time out from his adventures to come by help the Institute on a special project. With all of his interactions with the staff being done in virtual reality.
To the thread's original query, I too figure the device contains too valuable research material for it to remain aboard for long. It had likely been sent away somewhere for study, long before the wreck of the ENT-D. BTW, I hate it when people say it crashed. Ships don't crash, they wreck 
But onto the larger issue to come from this thread, that of the verifiability of sapient sentience. True, it's a bit thin to suggest that Geordi's minor misspeak could be singularly capable of creating a fully sapient sentience, given how apparently difficult it is to orchestrate the right mix of programming, for it to be possible in the various Soong droids that have existed in their universe, some of which were far less developed than either Data or Lore.
That does not necessarily negate the potential for a sapient sentience to exist in an artificial form. Clearly the show creators believed that, as it was a common theme touched on in many forms over the entire course of the franchise, all the way back to TOS & even V-Ger.
Furthermore, it may be impossible to disprove, & philosophically speaking, it's also rather hard to dismiss. Point being, in the case of something like the Voyager EMH, it is at least theoretically possible that his programming would develop significantly enough for such to occur. Would it really be so different than how the Human level of sapient sentience develops from birth, or how we might assume Data's was developed over time by Soong, & consequently in Lal?
In very different ways, it's still all just machinery, & somewhere in there might be a ghost, & how ever would we truly be able to expect to qualify it, without a complete understanding of our universe?
I like to believe that Moriarty was sapient, & not just facsimiled so. The show purposefully set out to illustrate that he had a hunger to exist, which was genuine, & a mind of such a profound nature as to make it a possibility, unlike Cyrus Redblock, who was much lesser in design for there to be a significant development from the gained knowledge of existence. Come to think of it, even Minuet seemed to cross into that realm as well.
But onto the larger issue to come from this thread, that of the verifiability of sapient sentience. True, it's a bit thin to suggest that Geordi's minor misspeak could be singularly capable of creating a fully sapient sentience, given how apparently difficult it is to orchestrate the right mix of programming, for it to be possible in the various Soong droids that have existed in their universe, some of which were far less developed than either Data or Lore.
That does not necessarily negate the potential for a sapient sentience to exist in an artificial form. Clearly the show creators believed that, as it was a common theme touched on in many forms over the entire course of the franchise, all the way back to TOS & even V-Ger.
Furthermore, it may be impossible to disprove, & philosophically speaking, it's also rather hard to dismiss. Point being, in the case of something like the Voyager EMH, it is at least theoretically possible that his programming would develop significantly enough for such to occur. Would it really be so different than how the Human level of sapient sentience develops from birth, or how we might assume Data's was developed over time by Soong, & consequently in Lal?
In very different ways, it's still all just machinery, & somewhere in there might be a ghost, & how ever would we truly be able to expect to qualify it, without a complete understanding of our universe?
I like to believe that Moriarty was sapient, & not just facsimiled so. The show purposefully set out to illustrate that he had a hunger to exist, which was genuine, & a mind of such a profound nature as to make it a possibility, unlike Cyrus Redblock, who was much lesser in design for there to be a significant development from the gained knowledge of existence. Come to think of it, even Minuet seemed to cross into that realm as well.
I just remembered: The making of Voyager book "A Vision of the Future" has early production notes where the EMH is said to be derived from what Starfleet learned about the Moriarty hologram. So, he was probably at Jupiter Station when the Enterprise crashed.
I will assume the cube still is running and they are alive for as long as the simulation reasonably sustains them. They are in a simulation of the 24th Century, and by all accounts, humans can live well over a century with that level of health care, so if that was 25 years ago, and let's say they were 45 or fifty then, I guess they would be about 70-75 now, and will still be living in the simulation for another 70 years. Hopefully discovering new things for themselves and growing old together with their family and friends.
