Is Picard responsible for the Borg's success against the Federation?

[Anwar]

Re: Is Picard responsible for the Borg's success against the Federatio

There are two types of Borg:

1) Born Borg/Baby Borg who are assimilated at such a young age they are never really individuals to begin with. There are the ones like Hugh and all the others on his ship. The renegade Borg of Descent.

2) Assimilated Borg like Seven or most of the ones seen in VOY. These are ones who have their minds forcibly repressed while they are aware of what's happening, as opposed to the "Borg Borg" who don't get these restraints since they have no individuality to suppress.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

Re: Is Picard responsible for the Borg's success against the Federatio

Sure there are multiple kinds of Borg. Every episode featuring them retcons everything about them.

 

[kirkfan]

Re: Is Picard responsible for the Borg's success against the Federatio

They didn't nanoprobe Picard for example, they powerdrilled things into him.

 

[Timo]

Re: Is Picard responsible for the Borg's success against the Federatio

Hmh? There's a very clear scene in "BoBW" where the Borg push a needle into Picard, making his skin go all grey. That's definitely close enough for tango IMHO.

(After the injection, power drilling always takes place, as we see in ST:FC where injected victims are marched to the impromptu surgery stations...)

1) Born Borg/Baby Borg who are assimilated at such a young age they are never really individuals to begin with. There are the ones like Hugh and all the others on his ship. The renegade Borg of Descent.

No Borg has ever admitted to having been born Borg. No de-Borgified character such as Seven or Locutus or Icheb has indicated it would be possible to be born Borg. And Seven was pretty adamant that one cannot be born Borg when the issue arose in "Drone".

Seven: "A drone, but unlike any I've ever seen."
Tuvok: "It appears to be in the foetal stage."
Seven: "I don't understand. The Borg assimilate. They do not reproduce in this fashion."

Protesting about a foetus in a bottle might be for various reasons. But placing "this fashion" of reproduction directly opposite the statement "The Borg assimilate" is pretty decisive. There are no Borg being born, and that's categorical as far as Seven knows.

On the other hand, babies are indeed assimilated on occasion. And Seven is a child assimilee herself. Whether such things would be common or not, we can't tell, but a whole Cubeful of them? "Descent" doesn't really establish that.

These are ones who have their minds forcibly repressed while they are aware of what's happening, as opposed to the "Borg Borg" who don't get these restraints since they have no individuality to suppress.

Remarkably, when Seven was offered freedom from the Collective in a Hugh-like crash, she refused on basis of "having no individuality to suppress", i.e. of being just a scared kid. Others in her team ("of Nine") had their past lives resurface to greater or lesser degree. What does this mean for the Hugh case? Hugh doesn't talk about his past life - but neither did Seven. For all we know, Third of Five used to be Jens-Pelle Hansen, Seven's kid brother, and is equally in denial about that...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Anwar]

Re: Is Picard responsible for the Borg's success against the Federatio

Hugh didn't act the way Seven did though, he didn't show some consuming desire to go back to the Collective and Seven's memories of her pre-Borg life started coming back whether she wanted them too or not.

Odds are, Seven was still old enough to have some individuality to suppress whereas Hugh never did since he was a baby vs her being a young child.

In fact, none of Hugh's Borg started getting their memories back the way Riley's Borg did when THEIR Cube was cut off. None of them really showed a desire to go back to the Collective. They all acted like they were becoming individuals for the very first time ever.

This would indicate they weren't grown adults captured and assimilated like Riley's group, they were all babies who never got to be individuals.

As for Seven, she was probably just wrong about the Borg not making babies. There was stuff she didn't know.

 

[Timo]

Re: Is Picard responsible for the Borg's success against the Federatio

In fact, none of Hugh's Borg started getting their memories back the way Riley's Borg did when THEIR Cube was cut off. None of them really showed a desire to go back to the Collective.

The latter seems clear enough; how can we tell whether the former would be true?

These ex-Drones had names - the heroes apparently assume they made them up (an arrogant conclusion based on the fact that they gave Friday, uh, Hugh a made-up name), but it's equally possible those were their pre-Collective identities. Crosis says he was named by Lore, but that's as far as explicit evidence goes.

As for Seven, she was probably just wrong about the Borg not making babies. There was stuff she didn't know.

Might be. But then Q would also have been lying (a good bet any day, but still). And there's still the fact or lack thereof that we never saw the Borg making babies...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Anwar]

Re: Is Picard responsible for the Borg's success against the Federatio

The latter seems clear enough; how can we tell whether the former would be true?

These ex-Drones had names - the heroes apparently assume they made them up (an arrogant conclusion based on the fact that they gave Friday, uh, Hugh a made-up name), but it's equally possible those were their pre-Collective identities. Crosis says he was named by Lore, but that's as far as explicit evidence goes.

Wouldn't any of them express any desire to go back to their Pre-Collective lives instead of joining Lore though? Instead of acting like a bunch of impressionable kids?

Unless Hugh's Borg didn't have Pre-Collective lives.

Might be. But then Q would also have been lying (a good bet any day, but still). And there's still the fact or lack thereof that we never saw the Borg making babies...

Timo Saloniemi

I don't think of us would really want to see Borg Procreation, thanks...

...As for Q, he is considered a "God of Lies" by at least one world. And from what we learned later on about the Borg, he was lying to Picard about the way he described the Borg in Q Who?

 

[Timo]

Re: Is Picard responsible for the Borg's success against the Federatio

Wouldn't any of them express any desire to go back to their Pre-Collective lives instead of joining Lore though? Instead of acting like a bunch of impressionable kids?

There would be practical limitations to that. The liberated drones in "Survival Instinct" were stranded far away from their homes; since they were going to die soon, they made no effort to return to their ancestral grounds. Lore's bunch would not be under such a strict time limit, but they, too, were stranded at a location that supposedly wasn't native to any of them.

If there were drones that used to live close to Lore's hideout, though, perhaps they did make an effort to return? Perhaps some succeeded, while Lore shot down some (and not figuratively, either!).

I don't think of us would really want to see Borg Procreation, thanks...

Hmm. Seconded, I guess.

And from what we learned later on about the Borg, he was lying to Picard about the way he described the Borg in Q Who?

But was he? The Borg there had no interest in Picard or his crew - not because they were lifeforms, but because they were such unremarkable lifeforms! Everything else Q said was basically verified later on.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[kirkfan]

Re: Is Picard responsible for the Borg's success against the Federatio

I think it's possible that there are several kinds of borg that somehow agreed to a peaceful coexistence. Kinda like when different gangs agree to stop shooting each other.

 

[Ithekro]

Re: Is Picard responsible for the Borg's success against the Federatio

Borg Procreation

The Queen seems to give this option to Data.

 

[kirkfan]

Re: Is Picard responsible for the Borg's success against the Federatio

Borg Procreation

The Queen seems to give this option to Data.

Creepy.

 

[LMFAOschwarz]

Re: Is Picard responsible for the Borg's success against the Federatio

I don't see how Picard could be "responsible" for this. It would be like saying I'm "responsible" for a traffic accident because, upon leaving the house, I realize I forgot to turn off the bathroom light. Sure, if I go back in to shut it off, I'm delaying my departure time, which will affect the time at which I'll be on the road, but since it's impossible to anticipate the permutations of events in the future, how could I know this?

Besides, leaving the bathroom light on and just leaving could easily contribute to a far worse accident...but who can possibly anticipate this?

The falling dominoes of time...

 

[kirkfan]

Re: Is Picard responsible for the Borg's success against the Federatio

I don't see how Picard could be "responsible" for this. It would be like saying I'm "responsible" for a traffic accident because, upon leaving the house, I realize I forgot to turn off the bathroom light. Sure, if I go back in to shut it off, I'm delaying my departure time, which will affect the time at which I'll be on the road, but since it's impossible to anticipate the permutations of events in the future, how could I know this?

Besides, leaving the bathroom light on and just leaving could easily contribute to a far worse accident...but who can possibly anticipate this?

The falling dominoes of time...

I prefer the term "butterfly effect".

 

[LMFAOschwarz]

Re: Is Picard responsible for the Borg's success against the Federatio

I prefer the term "butterfly effect".

Me too...but that ws all I could think of in a hurry, as I had to leave.

With that in mind, I didn't mean to pawn myself off as a crappy driver looking for an 'out'!

 

[Kevman7987]

Re: Is Picard responsible for the Borg's success against the Federatio

I don't see how Picard could be "responsible" for this. It would be like saying I'm "responsible" for a traffic accident because, upon leaving the house, I realize I forgot to turn off the bathroom light. Sure, if I go back in to shut it off, I'm delaying my departure time, which will affect the time at which I'll be on the road, but since it's impossible to anticipate the permutations of events in the future, how could I know this?

Besides, leaving the bathroom light on and just leaving could easily contribute to a far worse accident...but who can possibly anticipate this?

The falling dominoes of time...

I prefer the term "butterfly effect".

"That's the, uh, the essence of, uh, Chaos Theory."

 

[kirkfan]

Re: Is Picard responsible for the Borg's success against the Federatio

I don't see how Picard could be "responsible" for this. It would be like saying I'm "responsible" for a traffic accident because, upon leaving the house, I realize I forgot to turn off the bathroom light. Sure, if I go back in to shut it off, I'm delaying my departure time, which will affect the time at which I'll be on the road, but since it's impossible to anticipate the permutations of events in the future, how could I know this?

Besides, leaving the bathroom light on and just leaving could easily contribute to a far worse accident...but who can possibly anticipate this?

The falling dominoes of time...

I prefer the term "butterfly effect".

"That's the, uh, the essence of, uh, Chaos Theory."

He's not the first guy to use chaos theory to put the moves on a woman...

 

[just_me]

Re: Is Picard responsible for the Borg's success against the Federatio

I think it's possible that there are several kinds of borg that somehow agreed to a peaceful coexistence. Kinda like when different gangs agree to stop shooting each other.

i don't think it is possible because as you know there are connected to collective mind so they all have same idea which is assimilate everything they find isn't it?

 

[kirkfan]

Re: Is Picard responsible for the Borg's success against the Federatio

I think it's possible that there are several kinds of borg that somehow agreed to a peaceful coexistence. Kinda like when different gangs agree to stop shooting each other.

i don't think it is possible because as you know there are connected to collective mind so they all have same idea which is assimilate everything they find isn't it?

But the borg are capable of altering their MO for the sake of survival, like when they refrained from assimilating Voyager for example.

 

[Sidewinder]

Re: Is Picard responsible for the Borg's success against the Federatio

Let's assume he fires his weapons, full spread, maximum yield. Over and over again until the entire Borg ship is destroyed.

What happens the next time a Federation Starship runs into a Cube? Maybe that ship is smaller and doesn't have as strong of weapons.

 

[Timo]

Re: Is Picard responsible for the Borg's success against the Federatio

At least that ship doesn't have to face a Cube that has already adapted to Starfleet phasers.

(Although it may have adapted to Starfleet photon torpedoes, just like the one in "Q Who?" had without Picard ever having fired any at it. Was that because the Borg were already old friends with antimatter explosives - or because the Borg had had the opportunity to scan the relevant E-D databases, via those Drones they sent aboard, before Picard started firing at them?)

Timo Saloniemi