Is Picard responsible for the Borg's success against the Federation?

[Maurice]

Re: Is Picard responsible for the Borg's success against the Federatio

Picard's attacks in Q Who did a little bit of minor damage that was instantly repaired, what are you talking about?

Picard did not disable the Borg cube by shooting some small dents in it. The Borg cube just knew it could catch the Enterprise so it was the most efficient solution to focus on repairs.

That's not true. The E destroys 20% of the cube in that volley. The cube was so damaged that they cut life support to minimum. O'Brien had to search for a habitable part of the cube to beam Riker into. They needed all their energies to repair what the E had done.

WORF: They have sustained damage to twenty percent of their vessel. Life support minimal.

O'BRIEN: I've laid in coordinates which should set you down in the least damaged section of the Borg ship.

Slight difference. Damaged isn't the same as destroyed. Finding the least damaged part of the ship isn't the same as searching for a habitable part.

 

[kirkfan]

Re: Is Picard responsible for the Borg's success against the Federatio

Picard's attacks in Q Who did a little bit of minor damage that was instantly repaired, what are you talking about?

Picard did not disable the Borg cube by shooting some small dents in it. The Borg cube just knew it could catch the Enterprise so it was the most efficient solution to focus on repairs.

That's not true. The E destroys 20% of the cube in that volley. The cube was so damaged that they cut life support to minimum. O'Brien had to search for a habitable part of the cube to beam Riker into. They needed all their energies to repair what the E had done.

WORF: They have sustained damage to twenty percent of their vessel. Life support minimal.

O'BRIEN: I've laid in coordinates which should set you down in the least damaged section of the Borg ship.

Slight difference. Damaged isn't the same as destroyed. Finding the least damaged part of the ship isn't the same as searching for a habitable part.

I believe O'Brien would have said something if the least damaged part of the ship couldn't sustain life.

 

[Timo]

Re: Is Picard responsible for the Borg's success against the Federatio

...But that's the opposite of arguing that the damaged parts were uninhabitable.

"Damage to 20% of the ship" is quite ill-defined.

- Pockmarks on 20% of the total outer surface? Well, no, we can see it's not that; the marked area is much smaller.
- 20% of the Cube's volume affected by weapons fire? The pits carved don't represent 20% of the Cube, but the damage could and should extend deeper than just the pits.
- 20% drop in key activity readings such as power levels? Worf sure found a weird way of phrasing it! Plus 20% is actually very little in such a context: enemy shields often go down 20% and our heroes are frustrated at how little they achieved...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[kirkfan]

Re: Is Picard responsible for the Borg's success against the Federatio

...But that's the opposite of arguing that the damaged parts were uninhabitable.

"Damage to 20% of the ship" is quite ill-defined.

- Pockmarks on 20% of the total outer surface? Well, no, we can see it's not that; the marked area is much smaller.
- 20% of the Cube's volume affected by weapons fire? The pits carved don't represent 20% of the Cube, but the damage could and should extend deeper than just the pits.
- 20% drop in key activity readings such as power levels? Worf sure found a weird way of phrasing it! Plus 20% is actually very little in such a context: enemy shields often go down 20% and our heroes are frustrated at how little they achieved...

Timo Saloniemi

I think we can assume that the damaged parts were habitable otherwise O'Brien would have said so.

 

[Timo]

Re: Is Picard responsible for the Borg's success against the Federatio

I don't think we can.

What we can assume is that the part O'Brien chose for the landing party, the one called "least damaged", had life support - indeed, we can see that it did. But we know nothing, and need to know nothing, about the parts that O'Brien discarded. He had his reasons, and habitability might have been on top of the list. Or then not - "least damaged" might also be the logical spot for finding well-working equipment, or evacuated leaders, or a good place to aim at if the need arose to do even further damage to the Borg, now from within. Or whatever.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Makarov]

Re: Is Picard responsible for the Borg's success against the Federatio

Lets remember that Q knows who Picard is - if Q wanted the borg cube destroyed he could have thrown Jellico at the cube instead. Picard at the time didn't know how dangerous the borg were and so he had good reason to investigate. If we assume Q introduced Picard to them as part of a long term plan to take down the borg.. he must have known it was all for the best.

 

[kirkfan]

Re: Is Picard responsible for the Borg's success against the Federatio

Lets remember that Q knows who Picard is - if Q wanted the borg cube destroyed he could have thrown Jellico at the cube instead. Picard at the time didn't know how dangerous the borg were and so he had good reason to investigate. If we assume Q introduced Picard to them as part of a long term plan to take down the borg.. he must have known it was all for the best.

Jellico would have Put Data instead of Riker as first officer, thus ensuring that his orders would be executed promptly instead of being discussed and sometimes disobeyed.

 

[Nightdiamond]

Re: Is Picard responsible for the Borg's success against the Federatio

Another issue is that Picard had a chance to destroy the Borg by infecting Hugh with a virus, but then decided to let him go.

On the notion that just leaving him as he was might influence the rest of the Borg with his sense of individuality.

Some time later, a lot more people were killed.

Picard's crew tended to be a lot more bleeding heart at times- they seemed to have completely forgotten how dangerous the Borg were and how many lives and civilizations they destroyed.

True, it was a moral dilema, but they weren't acting like a defense force ,(military) defending and saving lives. They seemed more like an explorer think tank types.

It makes you wonder if they would have made the same decision after witnessing what happened in Parallels.

 

[kirkfan]

Re: Is Picard responsible for the Borg's success against the Federatio

Another issue is that Picard had a chance to destroy the Borg by infecting Hugh with a virus, but then decided to let him go.

On the notion that just leaving him as he was might influence the rest of the Borg with his sense of individuality.

Some time later, a lot more people were killed.

Picard's crew tended to be a lot more bleeding heart at times- they seemed to have completely forgotten how dangerous the Borg were and how many lives and civilizations they destroyed.

True, it was a moral dilema, but they weren't acting like a defense force ,(military) defending and saving lives. They seemed more like an explorer think tank types.

It makes you wonder if they would have made the same decision after witnessing what happened in Parallels.

Well ,I am not sure I understand Picard's reasoning there. Most people that the borg assimilate have a firm sense of individuality, as a matter of fact so did Picard before he was absorbed and used by the collective. It didn't slow the borg down one bit. So why would it be any different this time with Hugh?

 

[Anwar]

Re: Is Picard responsible for the Borg's success against the Federatio

Another issue is that Picard had a chance to destroy the Borg by infecting Hugh with a virus, but then decided to let him go.

On the notion that just leaving him as he was might influence the rest of the Borg with his sense of individuality.

Some time later, a lot more people were killed.

Picard's crew tended to be a lot more bleeding heart at times- they seemed to have completely forgotten how dangerous the Borg were and how many lives and civilizations they destroyed.

True, it was a moral dilema, but they weren't acting like a defense force ,(military) defending and saving lives. They seemed more like an explorer think tank types.

It makes you wonder if they would have made the same decision after witnessing what happened in Parallels.

The invasive program wouldn't have worked. When Hugh passed his individuality "virus" to his ship all it did was disable that one ship and only that one ship. Similarly, the invasive program would've incapacitated that one ship before the Collective cut it off.

 

[kirkfan]

Re: Is Picard responsible for the Borg's success against the Federatio

Another issue is that Picard had a chance to destroy the Borg by infecting Hugh with a virus, but then decided to let him go.

On the notion that just leaving him as he was might influence the rest of the Borg with his sense of individuality.

Some time later, a lot more people were killed.

Picard's crew tended to be a lot more bleeding heart at times- they seemed to have completely forgotten how dangerous the Borg were and how many lives and civilizations they destroyed.

True, it was a moral dilema, but they weren't acting like a defense force ,(military) defending and saving lives. They seemed more like an explorer think tank types.

It makes you wonder if they would have made the same decision after witnessing what happened in Parallels.

The invasive program wouldn't have worked. When Hugh passed his individuality "virus" to his ship all it did was disable that one ship and only that one ship. Similarly, the invasive program would've incapacitated that one ship before the Collective cut it off.

I am not sure that would have worked this way. The cube was incapable of severing Picard's connection, not even to save its existence. I am not sure the collective would have had more luck.

 

[Anwar]

Re: Is Picard responsible for the Borg's success against the Federatio

The Cube was able to sever the connection...by blowing up Locutus. Unfortunately, the Sleep command was put in before they destroyed the Enterprise.

The Collective must've had some failsafe to cut off a Borg ship "infected" with anything.

 

[kirkfan]

Re: Is Picard responsible for the Borg's success against the Federatio

The Cube was able to sever the connection...by blowing up Locutus. Unfortunately, the Sleep command was put in before they destroyed the Enterprise.

The Collective must've had some failsafe to cut off a Borg ship "infected" with anything.

There's nothing that indicates that.

 

[Start Wreck]

Re: Is Picard responsible for the Borg's success against the Federatio

Well ,I am not sure I understand Picard's reasoning there. Most people that the borg assimilate have a firm sense of individuality, as a matter of fact so did Picard before he was absorbed and used by the collective. It didn't slow the borg down one bit. So why would it be any different this time with Hugh?

There are a couple of things to consider here:

- Firstly, the fact that Hugh was already a drone would be enough to make a difference to how he is processed. Since he'd already been assimilated once, he would simply be "plugged back in", bypassing the usual filtering processes.

- Secondly, it's worth remembering that, when the episode was written, that the notion of the Borg assimilating people hadn't been established. The Borg created new drones by growing them. (Picard was a special case, and special cases can have special arrangements.)

The Cube was able to sever the connection...by blowing up Locutus. Unfortunately, the Sleep command was put in before they destroyed the Enterprise.

The Collective must've had some failsafe to cut off a Borg ship "infected" with anything.

The point of the virus is that it disguised itself as a solvable problem, so the collective wouldn't know that it should cut off an infected ship, because it wouldn't know that it was infected.

On the other hand, a Borg cube in disarray due to its drones becoming individuals would likely cut itself off from the collective, whether purposely or not.

It's something to consider, anyway.

 

[Ithekro]

Re: Is Picard responsible for the Borg's success against the Federatio

Considering what happened later on when the Borf Queen started noticing drones on Cubes she could no long hear. She started blowing up spheres and cubes. Partly to intimidate Seven of Nine and Janeway, but also in an attempt to prevent any resistance. This did not work on all spheres and ones that managed to be totally cut off could sever their link to the collective, but then any virus would also be cut off from the Collective.

 

[kirkfan]

Re: Is Picard responsible for the Borg's success against the Federatio

Considering what happened later on when the Borf Queen started noticing drones on Cubes she could no long hear. She started blowing up spheres and cubes. Partly to intimidate Seven of Nine and Janeway, but also in an attempt to prevent any resistance. This did not work on all spheres and ones that managed to be totally cut off could sever their link to the collective, but then any virus would also be cut off from the Collective.

Janeway's viruses apparently infect the whole collective quasi instantaneously so they don't have time to sever anything.

 

[Timo]

Re: Is Picard responsible for the Borg's success against the Federatio

Seems so. Although whether Admiral Janeway really hurt any sizeable portion of the Collective in "Endgame", or just a few local key elements such as the transwarp node, we never learn.

The cube was incapable of severing Picard's connection, not even to save its existence.

The heroes claimed that this must be true. They did it because they saw Locutus had not been cut off. But that's not a convincing case at all.

Why should the Borg cut off Locutus? Having him aboard the E-D was actually good for the Borg: an inside agent, agitator and ambassador that was able to continue dialogue with Starfleet while the Cube proceeded to its inevitable victory. The Borg had nothing to fear from Locutus - until the very end, which, as pointed out, came quickly.

Firstly, the fact that Hugh was already a drone would be enough to make a difference to how he is processed

This I guess is sufficient rationale for why the "individuality virus" was able to propagate as far as it did. Hugh wasn't assimilated, but merely invited back on board. He was displaying no signs of malfunction or disloyalty, in terms of actions or tampering of his physical structure or programming. What his mind had learned in captivity was valuable intel. And scuttling one ship was an acceptable price to pay for the Collective obtaining that intel.

The Borg created new drones by growing them.

...No doubt another case where our heroes completely dropped the ball. Basically everything they learned of the Borg in "Q Who?" was untrue:

- Cyborg babies aren't grown, they are assimilated babies!
- The Borg aren't disinterested in human beings, they just don't think Picard is worth their attention! And Picard is too full of himself to understand what Q really is telling him, in plain English.
- The Borg didn't just learn of mankind and rush in to conquer the Federation. They sent one Cube to check up on why everything they knew about the Federation had suddenly been cast in doubt as the E-D demonstrated its ability to evade a Cube. A real Borg invasion looks completely different!

Timo Saloniemi

 

[kirkfan]

Re: Is Picard responsible for the Borg's success against the Federatio

Let's not forget that as a standard procedure the borg were supposed to erase Hugh's experiences before taking him back. Do you have reasons to believe that they would act any different from the usual this time? If so, what are these reasons?

 

[Timo]

Re: Is Picard responsible for the Borg's success against the Federatio

That wasn't Borg standard procedure. The heroes themselves wanted to erase Hugh's memory, as a precaution that would allow them to return Hugh to the Collective without jeopardizing Starfleet secrets and Federation security. Picard didn't want to go along with that erasure himself, but speculated the Collective might do the dirty work for him.

Yet it was pure speculation, with no basis in fact - Picard never claimed to be speaking out of Locutus experience. To the contrary, he used expressions such as "it's more likely", "might" and "perhaps".

When we get further stories of Borg strays in VOY, there is no real mention of an erasure procedure. To the contrary, in "Survival Instinct", it is a mystery to the well-informed Seven of Nine why she and her fellow Borg would have lost memory of any events relating to a crash like Hugh's when they were reassimilated.

Seven: "I've determined that we all have exactly the same gap in our memories. It seems unlikely that it would be a coincidence."
Janeway: "So you believe the Collective deliberately wiped your recollections of the reassimilation process?"
Seven: "It is the most likely explanation."
Janeway: "But?"
Seven: "The Collective would not care that four drones remember being reassimilated."

The memory erasure is mere speculation on Seven's part, and obviously an exceptional and somewhat mysterious step, yet she speaks with authority about how things would usually happen.

Interestingly, though, Seven does call the standard return-to-the-flock procedure "reassimilation". Does this involve something as invasive as first-time assimilation? Or is it just a way of phrasing that belies the painless and effortless nature of stepping back onboard?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[kirkfan]

Re: Is Picard responsible for the Borg's success against the Federatio

I wonder if there aren't several kinds of borg. After all when you look at the borg from Tng and the ones from Voyager, to say nothing about the ones from Ent. They are different in so many ways, it's mind boggling!