Is Picard responsible for the Borg's success against the Federation?

[Timo]

Re: Is Picard responsible for the Borg's success against the Federatio

Hmm. Villains that cannot reappear are sort of screwed, popularity-wise. And villains that reappear without evolving are doomed, too.

But what about First Contact? They blew the sphere to smithereens with mostly torpedoes.

Quantum torps, to be sure. But I think the bigger factor there is that the Borg wanted to be defeated: that's what it took to lure Picard and, more importantly, his engineers to 2163, where they could build a warpship for the bumbling drunkard Cochrane and get the future Federation going.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[T'Girl]

Re: Is Picard responsible for the Borg's success against the Federatio

But what about First Contact? They blew the sphere to smithereens with mostly torpedoes.

Passage through the time vortex resulted in the Enterprise losing some systems, it would be reasonable to assume that the same happen to the Borg sphere.

 

[HigHurtenflurst]

Re: Is Picard responsible for the Borg's success against the Federatio

Passage through the time vortex resulted in the Enterprise losing some systems, it would be reasonable to assume that the same happen to the Borg sphere.

Good thought! However, I mis-spoke... I actually had intended to point out that the initial cube was destroyed primarily by torpedoes. Sphere came later...

AND: (thread drift) - why are 24th century weapons so wimpy? The cube is firing on the town with the intent of destroying the Phoenix (and Chochrane) with these wimpy little blasts that can hardly destroy a corrugated tin shack! Fed torpedoes are supposed to have yields in "isotons" or something, which surely sounds bigger than a 20th century nuke? You'd think they'd make a bigger "BANG!!!" when they hit something....

 

[kirkfan]

Re: Is Picard responsible for the Borg's success against the Federatio

Passage through the time vortex resulted in the Enterprise losing some systems, it would be reasonable to assume that the same happen to the Borg sphere.

Good thought! However, I mis-spoke... I actually had intended to point out that the initial cube was destroyed primarily by torpedoes. Sphere came later...

AND: (thread drift) - why are 24th century weapons so wimpy? The cube is firing on the town with the intent of destroying the Phoenix (and Chochrane) with these wimpy little blasts that can hardly destroy a corrugated tin shack! Fed torpedoes are supposed to have yields in "isotons" or something, which surely sounds bigger than a 20th century nuke? You'd think they'd make a bigger "BANG!!!" when they hit something....

We don't have anything in the isotons and still our most powerful weapons are pretty formidable. I'll say that if the borg dropped even one of their isoton thingy on us they'd blow a hole through the Earth the size of Australia. Thank God they seem to have run out of them before they came...

 

[Makarov]

Re: Is Picard responsible for the Borg's success against the Federatio

If Picard hadn't met the borg, the borg would eventually come across humanity and catch them off guard, assimilating the entire federation which would be unprepared

 

[Timo]

Re: Is Picard responsible for the Borg's success against the Federatio

I'm not sure how much "preparedness" contributed to the victory in "Best of Both Worlds pt II"...

The Borg supposedly encountered several ships, including at least the transport Lalo, in their preparation for the sortie towards Earth. Any of these could have donated them a Locutus, and any of those could have had the strength of will to resist enough to let slip the crucial "Sleep!" thing. OTOH, most would not have had the Starfleet expertise of Picard, and would have been less deadly against Admiral Hanson's force as a consequence.

Now, what circumstances could have conspired to let Starfleet capture the alternate Locutus and divine the key to shutting down the Borg? The odds of that happening may have been very low, but so were the odds of "Best of Both Worlds" happening. Did Q in his omniscient wisdom (and due to his perverse interest in Picard) arrange for things to transpire in this exact detail?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[doubleohfive]

Re: Is Picard responsible for the Borg's success against the Federatio

There's nothing in "Q-Who" to suggest that had the Enterprise just gone in guns 'a blazing that it would have stood any chance against the Borg cube. I think the very obvious intention of the writers was that no matter what Picard and crew did, they'd still have a hard time of standing up to the Borg. Yes, it's a manufactured inferiority in the storytelling, but claiming that Picard should have turned tail and run or fire off all salvos as a solution is intellectually lazy and proves nothing.

You're assuming they weren't relaying their info on the E in real time to the rest of the collective.

Except that there's no relaying involved. The essence of the Collective is such that what any single drone learns, the rest of the Collective immediately learns, too. Whatever the cube encountered by the Enterprise at J-25 learned would instantly have been learned by the rest of the Collective in the DQ. Even destroying the cube within minutes of encountering it would not have prevented such an occurrence.

--Sran

The Borg have the best wifi in the damn universe.

 

[doubleohfive]

Re: Is Picard responsible for the Borg's success against the Federatio

But they never were vulnerable to Starfleet photon torpedoes, not even for a single impact.

Timo Saloniemi

But what about First Contact? They blew the sphere to smithereens with mostly torpedoes.

Quantum torpedoes, developed (likely) in response to the Borg thread and after many hostile encounters with the Dominion over on Deep Space Nine.

More importantly, however, is that the easy destruction of the cube was a calculated move by the Borg Queen -- let the Federation destroy the cube if it means she and her Sphere can escape to go back in time. She likely didn't expect the Enterprise-E to follow them back, but when it did, she did the next tactically savvy thing - she beamed a contingent of her drones aboard before those quantum torpedoes blew the Sphere out of the sky.

 

[kirkfan]

Re: Is Picard responsible for the Borg's success against the Federatio

I'm not sure how much "preparedness" contributed to the victory in "Best of Both Worlds pt II"...

The Borg supposedly encountered several ships, including at least the transport Lalo, in their preparation for the sortie towards Earth. Any of these could have donated them a Locutus, and any of those could have had the strength of will to resist enough to let slip the crucial "Sleep!" thing. OTOH, most would not have had the Starfleet expertise of Picard, and would have been less deadly against Admiral Hanson's force as a consequence.

Now, what circumstances could have conspired to let Starfleet capture the alternate Locutus and divine the key to shutting down the Borg? The odds of that happening may have been very low, but so were the odds of "Best of Both Worlds" happening. Did Q in his omniscient wisdom (and due to his perverse interest in Picard) arrange for things to transpire in this exact detail?

Timo Saloniemi

It's dumb luck that the word "sleep" in borg is synonymous to "blow yourself up" though...

 

[at Quark's]

Re: Is Picard responsible for the Borg's success against the Federatio

It's easy to look at the events of Q Who with 20:20 hindsight, but at the time, the threat of the Borg, and their ability to adapt, was not known. There was no reason to destroy the Cube straight away, in fact doing so would have been bizarrely out of character. Picard's mission is to seek out new life and reach a peaceful coexistence wherever possible. He acted entirely properly.

^This.

Although TNG's tendency to call conferences in the midst of a confrontation with the Borg, or the Romulans, or whoever, is somewhat puzzling. In all these instances, what is it they have to discuss that absolutely cannot be said on the bridge, anyway?

 

[kirkfan]

Re: Is Picard responsible for the Borg's success against the Federatio

It's easy to look at the events of Q Who with 20:20 hindsight, but at the time, the threat of the Borg, and their ability to adapt, was not known. There was no reason to destroy the Cube straight away, in fact doing so would have been bizarrely out of character. Picard's mission is to seek out new life and reach a peaceful coexistence wherever possible. He acted entirely properly.

^This.

Although TNG's tendency to call conferences in the midst of a confrontation with the Borg, or the Romulans, or whoever, is somewhat puzzling. In all these instances, what is it they have to discuss that absolutely cannot be said on the bridge, anyway?

I think they need to share a cup of coffee, a few cakes and some relaxation.

 

[Timo]

Re: Is Picard responsible for the Borg's success against the Federatio

There's nothing in "Q-Who" to suggest that had the Enterprise just gone in guns 'a blazing that it would have stood any chance against the Borg cube

It's pretty damn impressive to score "20 % damage" with the shots seen. It means that by firing thirty rather than three shots, Picard ought to have achieved 100%.

Now, what could have gone wrong?

1) Worf's data was all wrong. What looked like 20% damage was in fact inconsequential, as a Borg vessel can keep on running with just 3% remaining and still defeat Galaxy class vessels.
2) The Borg would have found a way to completely block the phasers after the tenth shot, cutting short Picard's triumph.

Both of these interpretations have their problems.

1) The Borg do seem to be in major trouble even in semi-intact Cubes, both in this episode (life support down) and the likes of "Unity" et al. It is very difficult to see how the Cube could have kept on fighting when the fact is that it did not.
2) Being able to run the adaptation routine at full steam seems inconsistent with the major difficulties the Cube was in, too. Sure, the Borg typically adapt after two to four (hand) phaser shots, so the statistics would still support Picard's defeat. But if they could and did, why did they stop fighting and start nursing themselves?

I don't really believe in either of the above Borg triumphs, then. I could just barely buy it that the Borg had rapidly learned enough of mankind, Starfleet and Picard to feign excessive injury and thereby buy time in which to both repair and adapt. But that would be quite an extraordinary achievement for a culture that moments ago completely ignored Picard and his crew as inconsequential.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[kirkfan]

Re: Is Picard responsible for the Borg's success against the Federatio

There's nothing in "Q-Who" to suggest that had the Enterprise just gone in guns 'a blazing that it would have stood any chance against the Borg cube

It's pretty damn impressive to score "20 % damage" with the shots seen. It means that by firing thirty rather than three shots, Picard ought to have achieved 100%.

Now, what could have gone wrong?

1) Worf's data was all wrong. What looked like 20% damage was in fact inconsequential, as a Borg vessel can keep on running with just 3% remaining and still defeat Galaxy class vessels.
2) The Borg would have found a way to completely block the phasers after the tenth shot, cutting short Picard's triumph.

Both of these interpretations have their problems.

1) The Borg do seem to be in major trouble even in semi-intact Cubes, both in this episode (life support down) and the likes of "Unity" et al. It is very difficult to see how the Cube could have kept on fighting when the fact is that it did not.
2) Being able to run the adaptation routine at full steam seems inconsistent with the major difficulties the Cube was in, too. Sure, the Borg typically adapt after two to four (hand) phaser shots, so the statistics would still support Picard's defeat. But if they could and did, why did they stop fighting and start nursing themselves?

I don't really believe in either of the above Borg triumphs, then. I could just barely buy it that the Borg had rapidly learned enough of mankind, Starfleet and Picard to feign excessive injury and thereby buy time in which to both repair and adapt. But that would be quite an extraordinary achievement for a culture that moments ago completely ignored Picard and his crew as inconsequential.

Timo Saloniemi

This is like striking a sleeping bear with a stick. You can't incapacitate it enough to be out of danger with just one hit, and you normally won't get another chance to hit it.

 

[HigHurtenflurst]

Re: Is Picard responsible for the Borg's success against the Federatio

A thought occurs to me. They would randomly "modulate the phaser frequencies" to temporarily defeat or slow the adaptation of the Borg shields, but they would still adt after a few shots. Why did they never try having 2 or 3 guys (or more) fire on the same Borg with separate, randomly tuning phasers? With multiple phasers, you should be able to make it almost impossible to adapt to so many modulations.

 

[Timo]

Re: Is Picard responsible for the Borg's success against the Federatio

This may have been what undid the Borg Cube in ST:FC. Or why the phaser beams of the Defiant are replaced by multiple short pulses - perhaps each is of a different frequency, it being easier to "jump" frequencies between pulses than to "slide" them in a dwelling beam?

This is like striking a sleeping bear with a stick.

...Yet if the bear starts bleeding profusely, and nevertheless remains asleep, it should seem likely that you can kill it with your stick.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[kirkfan]

Re: Is Picard responsible for the Borg's success against the Federatio

A thought occurs to me. They would randomly "modulate the phaser frequencies" to temporarily defeat or slow the adaptation of the Borg shields, but they would still adt after a few shots. Why did they never try having 2 or 3 guys (or more) fire on the same Borg with separate, randomly tuning phasers? With multiple phasers, you should be able to make it almost impossible to adapt to so many modulations.

You could also shoot a multi-frequency beam. If it's anything like light,( but who knows what the hell it is?), it would be even easier to fire a beam like that than the mono-frequency kind.

 

[Praetorian]

Re: Is Picard responsible for the Borg's success against the Federatio

I'm not sure how much "preparedness" contributed to the victory in "Best of Both Worlds pt II"...

The Borg supposedly encountered several ships, including at least the transport Lalo, in their preparation for the sortie towards Earth. Any of these could have donated them a Locutus, and any of those could have had the strength of will to resist enough to let slip the crucial "Sleep!" thing. OTOH, most would not have had the Starfleet expertise of Picard, and would have been less deadly against Admiral Hanson's force as a consequence.

Now, what circumstances could have conspired to let Starfleet capture the alternate Locutus and divine the key to shutting down the Borg? The odds of that happening may have been very low, but so were the odds of "Best of Both Worlds" happening. Did Q in his omniscient wisdom (and due to his perverse interest in Picard) arrange for things to transpire in this exact detail?

Timo Saloniemi

It's dumb luck that the word "sleep" in borg is synonymous to "blow yourself up" though...

While it isn't made clear, it seems the Collective ordered the Cube to self destruct when it became apparent that it had been compromised.

 

[Timo]

Re: Is Picard responsible for the Borg's success against the Federatio

And that's later established as a standard Borg behavioral pattern.

What is dumb luck, then, is the fact that the Collective doesn't destroy or otherwise cut off the captured Locutus, when clearly our heroes are completely wrong about it being painful or objectionable to the Borg to terminate one of their own!

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Anwar]

Re: Is Picard responsible for the Borg's success against the Federatio

The Borg tried to kill Locutus when they fired on the shuttle, so they already knew the Borg were okay blowing up one of the their own.

And the Borg have to physically remove bits off a Borg to cause them to self-destruct, that's why Hugh was still alive when they found him. Once they figured the Enterprise crew thought they could break through to Picard they let him keep him since they thought it was hopeless.

Unfortunately for the Borg, they were wrong.

As for the Cube self-destructing, it might've been a self-destruct but the other theory is that it was caused by the sleep malfunction. If you overcharge a battery with a huge power surge it'll overload, right? Having that happen to all the drones at the same time caused enough mini-explosions it blew up the Cube.

Of course, a better ending would've been for Earth Defense to just realize the Cube was too dangerous left there and open fire on it with Earth's weaponry, destroying it in a single barrage.

 

[kirkfan]

Re: Is Picard responsible for the Borg's success against the Federatio

Locutus/Picard: Sleep, Data, sleep...


Beverly: He's exhausted.


Locutus/Picard: Beverly, shut up!