Is Paramount/CBS missing out on an opportunity?

[Data Holmes]

I read somewhere that a New Voyages Episode was downloaded 80 million times... I've also read that it costs roughly $100,000 to make one eps of NV...

If P/CBS allowed NV to charge $1 per download, and let the makers keep 10%... That would mean that, the studio would get $72 million with no pre investment into the project, and allow the people who make NV to make $8 million.


I don't know, maybe I'm nuts... but I look at the status of Fandom on the net and I have to wonder why P/CBS isn't taking advantage of this.

 

[ialfan]

I really doubt most of the people who have downloaded it would pay to download additional episodes in the future. It just doesnt seem likely. I probably would however if they offered High Res H.264/AAC MKV Video Files.

 

[RJDiogenes]

At $1 an episode? I think they definitely would. Paramount is definitely missing an opportunity here, whether with New Voyages or an original production. New Trek in the classic mold can be produced and distributed very economically.

 

[Data Holmes]

I really doubt most of the people who have downloaded it would pay to download additional episodes in the future. It just doesnt seem likely. I probably would however if they offered High Res H.264/AAC MKV Video Files.

I thought about that... what if it was a two level system. You could pay $1 to download a High Res copy of the vid, but keep the free streaming system with "limited commercial interruption". I mean, most of the fan films already have breaks in them to fit with the "tv show" format. You could very easily plug in one or two quick commercials into those breaks. Would only add to the "reality" of the fan vid being a "real TV show".

At $1 an episode? I think they definitely would. Paramount is definitely missing an opportunity here, whether with New Voyages or an original production. New Trek in the classic mold can be produced and distributed very economically.

I think that the trek fan films have shown that people are more than willing to watch Direct Internet Programming, and that ratings on TV mean squat on the net. Look at th NV example. If that 80 million downloads figure is correct, that is an amazing number... when you notice that the 2008 superbowl had 97.5 million viewers. Hell, the top rated show of the week last week was american Idol, with 29.9 million viewers...

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

First, to the best of my knowledge no one has come up with a way of measuring the number of actual completed downloads with enough precision to impress the studios. I know that several groups have tried, and have encountered one technical problem or another on several occasions.

Second, I would imagine that if the filmmakers were making money on fan films we'd certainly have to be paying all the folks who work on them - and then the cost of doing the shows goes way up. And the groups that are organized as not-for-profits have to make adjustments...and the tax people get interested so we need to have somewhat more, uh, robust accounting and legal representation...and then guilds and unions get interested...

 

[thumbtack]

Paramount already owns all of the fan films. Such is the reality of copyright law.

 

[USS Intrepid]

CBS owns all the copyrighted elements used in the fanfilms. They do not, as I understand it, own any original characters or story elements created for those fanfilms.

Though it's entirely possible I'm mistaken.

 

[Noname Given]

CBS owns all the copyrighted elements used in the fanfilms. They do not, as I understand it, own any original characters or story elements created for those fanfilms.

Though it's entirely possible I'm mistaken.

No technically CBS doesn't own any of that, but (even as a fan film producer); neither do you because you do not have license from CBS or Paramount to create original material in the 'Star Trek' franchise; and were any fan film producer to attempt to claim ownership of 'their' new original material, CBS/Paramount would have no recourse but to file suit; shut the production down, and possibly demand that all ilegally produced material be destroyed or turned over to CBS/Paramount; and further to demand punative damages for trademark and copyright infringement.

 

[thumbtack]

You are. See [FONT=Arial]17 U.S.C. §§ 512-4001. However, were you ever to find yourself under legitimate contract with the copyright holder, you could, theoretically, lay claim to any "distinct" and "significantly unique" additions you make to the property. I.E., if you create Ensign Ricky and the starship George W. Bush, you own neither. But if you create the guardian of forever, you might have some rights.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial]But this is all rendered moot by the fact that the production companies now make you waive all these rights (in writing) before you can work for them. Whoever created Darth Malak doesn't own him. Whoever created Harley Quinn most likely doesn't own her, and so on. The Star Trek novelists don't own any of their creations, for example.[/FONT]

 

[Ah Forgive!]

If Paramount was on top of things, they could hold a yearly Star Trek fan film contest, give some money to the winners and release a compilation DVD of their films. That's the sort of thing that really helps build a fan community.

 

[CaptJimboJones]

No lawyer here, but I'd speculate that their union contracts would make it very difficult for CBS/Paramount to do this type of thing. It would essentially be an act of outsourcing production to a workforce that's not only non-union, but is entirely non-paid.

You think the last strike was bad ...

 

[Rico]

First, to the best of my knowledge no one has come up with a way of measuring the number of actual completed downloads with enough precision to impress the studios. I know that several groups have tried, and have encountered one technical problem or another on several occasions.

You are quite wrong on this. It is fairly simple to do. Even more so once you enter into some type of paying arrangement. But even if you don't, tracking downloads of any file that's hosted on a server is simple. I do a weekly podcast and can give you exact numbers on how many have downloaded each podcast, the most popular one, etc. I can give you graphs broken down by country even.

Frankly, I think the real reason they don't officially acknowledge the fan films is they don't want to endorse them. They are ok with them, as long as they don't make money. The studios seem to think they are the only ones that can make good content.

For the record I'd easily pay a buck to watch each "New Voyages" episode.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

First, to the best of my knowledge no one has come up with a way of measuring the number of actual completed downloads with enough precision to impress the studios. I know that several groups have tried, and have encountered one technical problem or another on several occasions.

You are quite wrong on this.

You might want to explain that to the people who are trying to do it, rather than to me. When segments are released, people who don't want to wait in line seem to keep finding alternative ways of getting to the files that don't record properly on the various download counting methods.

Of course, the chicken-and-egg aspect to the whole thing is that it might be "even moreso" once one enters into a paying arrangement, but you really need the numbers first to have something to persuade the studios with.

 

[USS Intrepid]

You are. See [FONT=Arial]17 U.S.C. §§ 512-4001. However, were you ever to find yourself under legitimate contract with the copyright holder, you could, theoretically, lay claim to any "distinct" and "significantly unique" additions you make to the property. I.E., if you create Ensign Ricky and the starship George W. Bush, you own neither. But if you create the guardian of forever, you might have some rights.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial]But this is all rendered moot by the fact that the production companies now make you waive all these rights (in writing) before you can work for them. Whoever created Darth Malak doesn't own him. Whoever created Harley Quinn most likely doesn't own her, and so on. The Star Trek novelists don't own any of their creations, for example.[/FONT]

Interesting, though ultimately I don't suppose it makes much difference either way. I'm just glad CBS is willing to turn a blind eye and let us play in their sandbox.

 

[theorb]

My 2 kopecs....
Ahhhhh, No.
There is no way (currently) to keep track of money generated from this type of Internet downloads. There are experments and the current system is not supported by union contracts, and other studio sticky bookkeeping matters. It is a gray area. It will be. Past and upcoming hollywood contracts will move in the direction of regulating that area very fast.
Downloads in this area are horribly flawed and often inflated due to try to 'cook the books' and stimulate false Internet fame.
Copyright and trademark court cases heavily favor CBS/Paramount, Star Trek's complete and sole owner. This is as it should be in a fair society.
Not all people obey the law, but you can't control what you don't ultimately own. Maybe, people should be more educated on these important matters and see the bigger picture to protect artists rights. Your mileage may vary.....

 

[RJDiogenes]

Second, I would imagine that if the filmmakers were making money on fan films we'd certainly have to be paying all the folks who work on them - and then the cost of doing the shows goes way up. And the groups that are organized as not-for-profits have to make adjustments...and the tax people get interested so we need to have somewhat more, uh, robust accounting and legal representation...and then guilds and unions get interested...

Even if everybody who worked on a fan film were paid fairly, the cost would be far less than a network show. A low-budget film can be made for much less than a quarter of a million dollars. Even if those 80 million downloads translates to 3 million paying customers-- less than the audience for Enterprise-- that's still a tidy profit. Certainly enough to justify an "experiment."

And, by the way, I'm not suggesting that Paramount enter into any agreement with fan film producers, but rather pursue something along these lines on their own.

 

[Noname Given]

And, by the way, I'm not suggesting that Paramount enter into any agreement with fan film producers, but rather pursue something along these lines on their own.

Pursue what? Paramount is a Hollywood shop, which means it's bound by SAG, AFTRA, DGA, WGA and other Hollywood labor unions. Once they arte involved, ANY production, be it for internet, television broadcast, feature film, etc, costs what it costs (in the case of the last Star Trek series, that's 3 million or so an episode). I think I can safely say that if they could do it for cheaper they definitely would; but there's no way they can avoid paying Hollywood union rates for ANYTHING they are officially involved in, and that's what we're talking about here.

 

[RJDiogenes]

^^ That quote is mine, not SP's

You may be right; I don't know that much about it. But I'm pretty sure a series with the look and feel of the original Trek could be done with a lot fewer people and with much cheaper special effects and so forth. I think the reason they spend three million bucks on an episode is that they think the audience won't tune in for something that doesn't look like an overproduced motion picture.

 

[Hudson_uk]

Possibly true. However it is true that if someone gives you a pot of money to create something, you'll probably use what's in the pot and ask for a bigger pot.

One could argue that the real point is that (ignore the wages piece) fan films tend to do a lot with not a lot. i.e. the less you have, somehow you tend to be more creative.

If some of that creativity was brought into it, maybe costs could be slashed.

However, as soon as the wages piece is brought into it, all the "free time" donated by the various people would dry up and you end up paying for everything.

Speaking as someone who does not know what they're talking about

 

[Data Holmes]

Possibly true. However it is true that if someone gives you a pot of money to create something, you'll probably use what's in the pot and ask for a bigger pot.

One could argue that the real point is that (ignore the wages piece) fan films tend to do a lot with not a lot. i.e. the less you have, somehow you tend to be more creative.

If some of that creativity was brought into it, maybe costs could be slashed.

However, as soon as the wages piece is brought into it, all the "free time" donated by the various people would dry up and you end up paying for everything.

Speaking as someone who does not know what they're talking about

Why not do it so that a fan film group could "sell" their work, fully finished and complete, to paramount, with no money given to the production before then?