Is Nu-Who Really a "Kelvin" Timeline?

[Christopher]

The thing is, this is what happens when you have longtime fans of a franchise take over writing the franchise. You end up getting the kind of fannish explanations for old continuity getting folded into official canon. That's how we got the Klingon Augment virus in Star Trek, for instance. The original writers were more concerned with moving forward and telling new stories, but fans like to go back and explain old stories, so you get a lot more continuity porn and explanations once the fans start making the shows themselves. Which can sometimes be brilliant, but is sometimes more self-indulgent.

 

[starsuperion]

well it could be said that the Classic series had less timey wimey because the Time Lords were still active in the universe pre time war.. with all the rips in time sure, timey wimey may be necessary, but one has to think the Pandorica and reboot of the universe explains "Kelvin time line" and pretty much locks that theory into a perfect argument/discussion space for eons to come.

 

[Christopher]

well it could be said that the Classic series had less timey wimey because the Time Lords were still active in the universe pre time war...

Yeah, I think that's been made pretty much explicit in the new show, that time isn't being maintained the way it used to be. Although, of course, the original series did have its share of inconsistencies, as we've discussed. They just didn't build stories around them.

 

[starsuperion]

Yeah, I think that's been made pretty much explicit in the new show, that time isn't being maintained the way it used to be. Although, of course, the original series did have its share of inconsistencies, as we've discussed. They just didn't build stories around them.

which left the classic writers some freedom to concentrate on good stories.. not that the new series didn't have it's moments.. but overall, there was much more depth in the classic era. Something lost on Modern TV.. the only ones able to keep their classic magic are the Boyz from the Dwarf.

 

[Starkers]

Colin to some extent was brash and bragadosious.. but it was less promoted by the companions then now. It seems like when they speak of the so called "on coming storm" they were talking about Superman.. Rather then the Doctor.. Even with Pertwee's flair, the new series burries any of the older series with it's smug arrogance and self inflating of the Doctor.. lest we forget the River song speech in the Library about the Doctor, or the big headed speech at Stone Henge by Matt Smith.. or even David Tenant's rabbit scene in the 50th with his "On coming storm" nonesense. I really doubt you can compare the classic doctor's to the self promotion and narcassism on display almost every episode in the new series. Let's not even go to the pissing contest between robin hood and the Doctor while in prison.. Ughh.. (face palms like Picard)

Sorry but if you can't see that the Doctor was often pompous, self important, arrogant and had a genius complex we can't have been watching the same show. All of them did it to a greater or lesser extent did it and I hope we get it from Jodie too!

 

[starsuperion]

Sorry but if you can't see that the Doctor was often pompous, self important, arrogant and had a genius complex we can't have been watching the same show. All of them did it to a greater or lesser extent did it and I hope we get it from Jodie too!

Well I'm not saying it wasn't there, it was. you are correct on that. What I am saying is somehow the arrogant doctor became the centerpiece of the show, over just being a quirk of the personality. It got so bad that they even had set up scenes with River song gallantly proudly talking up the Doctor, or other companions trying to scare their enemies with dialogue about their brilliant saviour. I found it much more narcassistic then the classic era ever was.. the infamous "I AM TALKING" speech.. So over the top and silly.

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[FreddyE]

Well...I LIKE the timey-whimy retconning..re-retconning the show does. For me its actually part of the fun. "Whats that...uh? I don´t get it..."....-> 2 Seasons later..."Oh....okay, thats the missing part of the puzzle!"... But I agree that they overdid that whole "Doctor = all powerfull"..."watch me I`m the Doctor...basically...run"...thing. A doctor who is in awe about the stuff happening around him..and not a "can do it all, know it all"...would be quite interesting for a change.

 

[Christopher]

I've said before, Steven Moffat's Who was less a show about the Doctor exploring the universe than it was a show about the universe reacting to the Doctor. He was an uber-fan whose uber-fandom shaped his writing, so that the other characters and the whole world revolved around the Doctor and how awesome he was. It was often quite impressively written and hilarious and ingenious, but pretty repetitive after a while. I'd be glad to get back to a Doctor who wasn't always the ultimate focus of everything that happened, who went back to just happening upon other people's problems and helping them solve them.

 

[starsuperion]

I've said before, Steven Moffat's Who was less a show about the Doctor exploring the universe than it was a show about the universe reacting to the Doctor. He was an uber-fan whose uber-fandom shaped his writing, so that the other characters and the whole world revolved around the Doctor and how awesome he was. It was often quite impressively written and hilarious and ingenious, but pretty repetitive after a while. I'd be glad to get back to a Doctor who wasn't always the ultimate focus of everything that happened, who went back to just happening upon other people's problems and helping them solve them.

I think you are on to something there. If you go back and remember the Daleks storyline.. The original Trip to Skaro. The lack of knowledge of what was going to happen there, the exploratory aspect, the newness of the planet, and what terrors lie where.. that was a powerful attraction to that episode. It's been done a thousand times over, and even sometimes in the new series it would show up. But that unknown, that exploration and wonder factor, that humans out in the wilds of space with no way of knowing where or when they were, or what fate awaited them.. including the once not so "know it all" doctor.. is why I fell in love with the series.. I wish they would find that spark again.. make me a believer again. Formula's are good and well, but sometimes need a bit of tweaking to update them so as not to become stale and boring.

 

[Butters]

I think you are on to something there. If you go back and remember the Daleks storyline.. The original Trip to Skaro. The lack of knowledge of what was going to happen there, the exploratory aspect, the newness of the planet, and what terrors lie where.. that was a powerful attraction to that episode. It's been done a thousand times over, and even sometimes in the new series it would show up. But that unknown, that exploration and wonder factor, that humans out in the wilds of space with no way of knowing where or when they were, or what fate awaited them.. including the once not so "know it all" doctor.. is why I fell in love with the series.. I wish they would find that spark again.. make me a believer again. Formula's are good and well, but sometimes need a bit of tweaking to update them so as not to become stale and boring.

Yes. The doctor was all too knowing, red bicycle when you were ten, and that relegated the human companions to just passengers, occasionally reminding the doctor not to be a dick.

It’s a big universe, they could go somewhere that neither time lords nor humans have been.

 

[starsuperion]

Yes. The doctor was all too knowing, red bicycle when you were ten, and that relegated the human companions to just passengers, occasionally reminding the doctor not to be a dick.

It’s a big universe, they could go somewhere that neither time lords nor humans have been.

If only..

The writers have since the new show, made the Doctor bored.. which is why he has a companion to as the Doctor has said.. see the universe a new thru the eyes of his companion.. I remember the 4th Doctor lost in space, unsure of the area, the planet being unfamiliar and so on.. That was fun. Like remember the beginning of Destiny of the Daleks? His conversation with Romana on what the composition of the rock was, and determining it was concrete. meaning they were on a planet that had technology or a civilization.. another example, that same Hartnell Daleks episode, they were commenting on the trees, and the landscape, the Doctor not sure what sector he was in by the stars, and so on. It was nice to see that and it translated to me as the viewer. I was living the new with the entire crew.. now the Doctor is a glorified galactic Tour guide who has an enemies list a mile long, and companions to take on a trip to boring tedious repetitive storylines.

BTW.. I am totally loving your screen name..

 

[MacLeod]

I've been going back and forth on this subject for awhile now. IT'S BEEN NAGGING my subconscious ever since the reboot of the show occurred. I could say that I could rationalize the differences of the Nu series and blame it all on the Time War.. Retcon of events, and future events compounding past classic series canon, Clara, and The difference with the Daleks, Clara, and Clara (rolls eyes), and so on.. By rationalizing the time war as the culprit, I can remain calm..safe.. comfortable in knowing the universe is just kooky because of those crazy Gallifreyans.. But when you really start to think about it, the idea of the Nu-Who series being actually set in an alternative reality, or a "Kelvin" like continuity, the inconsistencies become apparent. The main factor, the clincher for me is the latest Christmas special..

The way the TARDIS was structured in the show, the way the Doctor morphed into a new but slightly different version ( I know that was for effectiveness relating the series to the original Tenth planet episodes) But if the TARDIS in Hartnell days is now slightly different, and the one from An Adventure in space and time was more like the original, then it would almost seem to me as if the new series has a Kelvin time line, after all there's a reason they call it Classic Doctor who and the new series is called a reboot right?? Could it just be because the new series is it's own timeline, and not a true continuation of the original? It's something I KEEP coming back to from time to time. What if the original universe is a separate reality, and this new series is nothing more then it's own alternative "Kelvin" universe? Would that be so bad? I don't know.. I still like the original idea of the Time War being responsible for all of the differences, but then again, there's a lot that can be said to point to an alternative time line..

I can't be the only one who ponders this..

DW was hardly famous for it's continuity, and is there any consensus on the terms classic Doctor Who vs nuWho? The whole reason for The Time War I believe was to try and get rid of some of the baggage from over 26 years of it's original run to make it easier to introduce new audiences to the show which hadn't been on TV in 16 years except for 1 TV Movie some 9 years earlier. Every indication is that The Doctor is the same Doctor that people where watching from 1963-1989. I doubt dear old Auntie Beeb would want to alienate the DW fan base any more than it had by original placing the show on indefinite hiatus back in 1989.

 

[mos6507]

While much of the Classic series had great stories and low production budgets, the modern series is self absorbed and superficial.

It's not so much that Doctor Who has changed as much as that culture has changed and modern Who reflects those changes. The same can be said of Star Trek.

While you could certainly produce traditionalist flavors of both, I don't think anyone's out there with the passion and the influence to make it happen. Most of anything that gets produced reflects the fashion trends and sensibilities of its era. Rarely does anything really buck the trends and of those that do, rarely do they meet success.

 

[starsuperion]

It's not so much that Doctor Who has changed as much as that culture has changed and modern Who reflects those changes. The same can be said of Star Trek.

While you could certainly produce traditionalist flavors of both, I don't think anyone's out there with the passion and the influence to make it happen. Most of anything that gets produced reflects the fashion trends and sensibilities of its era. Rarely does anything really buck the trends and of those that do, rarely do they meet success.

Tell that to Kathleen Kennedy and the retro star wars filming..

 

[Christopher]

Tell that to Kathleen Kennedy and the retro star wars filming..

The only way that the new Star Wars films are "retro" is in their visual design. They're pretty modern in other ways, like centering heavily on female and nonwhite protagonists. If anything, they're way ahead of the curve for Hollywood on that count.

 

[starsuperion]

The only way that the new Star Wars films are "retro" is in their visual design. They're pretty modern in other ways, like centering heavily on female and nonwhite protagonists. If anything, they're way ahead of the curve for Hollywood on that count.

So race and gender shouldn't matter.. Except when they do.. Gotcha..

 

[Christopher]

So race and gender shouldn't matter.. Except when they do.. Gotcha..

That's kind of the point. For generations, filmmakers (like most other social institutions) have heavily favored the white race and the male gender, so it obviously mattered hugely to the film industry, and that was very unfair to everyone else. Now we're finally starting to get to a point where race and gender matter less in who gets to be a movie hero. That's the trend, so that's what I meant by modernity.

 

[starsuperion]

That's kind of the point. For generations, filmmakers (like most other social institutions) have heavily favored the white race and the male gender, so it obviously mattered hugely to the film industry, and that was very unfair to everyone else. Now we're finally starting to get to a point where race and gender matter less in who gets to be a movie hero. That's the trend, so that's what I meant by modernity.

this takes no account of population demographics, or the culture of the times in which they were in.. a bit off the mark if you think about that reasoning.. todays standards are a reflection of the gains made since, but the historical trends shouldn't be looked on with modern eyes but to say we ARE doing so much better.. some zealous fanatics of PC diversity will say we have not even begun.. that dismisses the gains and sets up a never ending need to always have some sort of "cause" when it's not really as bad as it once was in the past..

Case in point: a Notable Feminist SJW who attacked the BBC for not going far enough with their representation, and hiring a white female blonde, not going far enough. The Feminist Icon even stated the next doctor should have been a black transgendered handicapped Doctor to be fully representative and make gains..

and yet we still don't acknowledge the fact that hiring now is based on Race, Gender, and sexual identity over just hiring blind and based on talent alone. Whites are not allowed, except if female. White Males are the only non protected class in this new paradigm. god forbid someone say they have affinity for a white Cis male. That's supposedly progress.. That is a shame and a backwards mentality.

convoluted Justification cites historical precedent, however ignores other cultures and countries where the opposite of representation is true. Take any majority non white nation and see if the same were true in reverse, and I will tell you there's no way a white male is lauded as much as in reverse minority representation in the UK or USA and the EU. it's not done in Asia or African nations.. let alone south America.. so there's a double standard at play as well as a certain amount of local pedestrian ignorance.

All this type of Identity focus is tiresome, and eventually leads to audience fatigue over the whole affair. If the New series is to succeed, I submit it will need to grow beyond the Gender debates and feminist virtue signaling and concentrate on straight story telling. Good Story telling. The Ratings fall off mid season will determine the health of the new series, that will be the proof in the Rice pudding so to speak.

For the new series to be a success, it needs to steadily add to it's ratings share, not lose more from it. Mid season numbers will tell all.

 

[Spot261]

and yet we still don't acknowledge the fact that hiring now is based on Race, Gender, and sexual identity over just hiring blind and based on talent alone. Whites are not allowed, except if female. White Males are the only non protected class in this new paradigm. god forbid someone say they have affinity for a white Cis male. That's supposedly progress.. That is a shame and a backwards mentality.

This statement would only work if there was any evidence it was resulting in under representation of straight wihte cis males. Can you provide any such evidence?

 

[SPCTRE]

Whites are not allowed, except if female. White Males are the only non protected class in this new paradigm. god forbid someone say they have affinity for a white Cis male. That's supposedly progress.. That is a shame and a backwards mentality.