Is military sci fi alien to Trek or at least harder to market?

[Christopher]

^Sure, it's a military with somewhat redefined functions, but I don't think it makes sense to say it's only partly or occasionally a military. It's got ranks and hierarchy and uniforms and stuff. An officer remains an officer whether fighting Romulans or cataloguing alien moss samples.

Maybe a more inclusive term for it would be "uniformed service." In the US, the uniformed services are counted as the Army, Navy, Air Force, Marines, Coast Guard, Public Health Service Commissioned Corps (led by the Surgeon General), and the NOAA Corps, a scientific agency within the Commerce department. I guess you could say that Starfleet is usually pretty much a cross between those last three, with elements of the Navy/Air Force as well.

 

[Deranged Nasat]

^Sure, it's a military with somewhat redefined functions, but I don't think it makes sense to say it's only partly or occasionally a military. It's got ranks and hierarchy and uniforms and stuff. An officer remains an officer whether fighting Romulans or cataloguing alien moss samples.

Maybe a more inclusive term for it would be "uniformed service." In the US, the uniformed services are counted as the Army, Navy, Air Force, Marines, Coast Guard, Public Health Service Commissioned Corps (led by the Surgeon General), and the NOAA Corps, a scientific agency within the Commerce department. I guess you could say that Starfleet is usually pretty much a cross between those last three, with elements of the Navy/Air Force as well.

Interesting. Thank you. I must say my knowledge of the actual definitions and internal workings of militaries is minimal (despite some family history involving the armed forces), so I appreciate the insight.

 

[Christopher]

Heck, I'm no military expert either, just good at looking things up online.

 

[Deranged Nasat]

Heck, I'm no military expert either, just good at looking things up online.

Heh. I think I still have an irrational sense that to do so would be "cheating" somehow.

 

[Idran]

Hmmm, very good point. I don't think, though, that there could be said to have ever been a military whose foremost purpose wasn't defence and/or politically-motivated combat.

UN Peacekeepers?

Depending on if you mean wholly active defense or any sort of defense at all, the JSDF might qualify, as well as the militaries of any number of smaller nations.

Edit: Whoops, didn't see there was another page.

 

[Enterprise1701]

^Sure, it's a military with somewhat redefined functions, but I don't think it makes sense to say it's only partly or occasionally a military. It's got ranks and hierarchy and uniforms and stuff. An officer remains an officer whether fighting Romulans or cataloguing alien moss samples.

Maybe a more inclusive term for it would be "uniformed service." In the US, the uniformed services are counted as the Army, Navy, Air Force, Marines, Coast Guard, Public Health Service Commissioned Corps (led by the Surgeon General), and the NOAA Corps, a scientific agency within the Commerce department. I guess you could say that Starfleet is usually pretty much a cross between those last three, with elements of the Navy/Air Force as well.

Starfleet is a star service (per TOS- "The Conscience of the King").

 

[Thrawn]

I suppose what makes Star Trek unique is that it is about a military that has rejected militarism. Starfleet will go to war when it has to, defending the Federation is part of its primary mission. But it's an organization that views the defense of the state as being better served through diplomacy, exploration, and the advancement of science first, and through violence and warfare second. The Federation Starfleet has embraced the idea that learning to accept and care about your neighbors as your equals, that learning to set aside differences to work together, is itself an instrument of national defense.

I know this is going back a while, just wanted to say that I totally dig this post. Well put.

 

[The Wormhole]

I'm just wondering If Starfleet was contemporary, would they not be dressed similarly to the Stargate team and work under similar protocol?

I suppose in a way, yeah. If Starfleet somehow existed today it would likely be some sort of meshing of the US Navy and the US Air Force. I say US because like it or not, Starfleet is more influenced by the US military than militaries of other nations. I suppose it would be very similar to the later years of SG-1 where they had their own starships.

 

[hbquikcomjamesl]

In Roddenberry's original conception, rank was greatly simplified: anybody who wasn't a lieutenant, lieutenant commander, captain, commodore, or admiral was an ensign (including people like Yeoman Rand and Crewman Green), in part because we weren't at the time (and so far as I'm aware, still generally aren't) sending enlisted military personnel into space.

Consider uniforms: military uniforms within recent history tend to be as festooned with insignia as safety and practicality permit, from rank, rating, and length-of-service insignia to at least the ribbons for decorations, medals, citations, proficiency badges, &c. There were of course exceptions: one doesn't generally wear service ribbons to clean out latrines, and it's generally acknowledged that because of the hot, cramped conditions, WWII submariners generally served in little more than their underwear, but still, the rule is otherwise. Compare that with Starfleet: duty uniforms with nothing more than either a "warp delta" or an individual ship insignia on the chest, and fairly subtle, unobtrusive rank insignia.

Then, too, the common (and probably stereotypical) understanding of military science fiction is that it tends to dwell on war, even if not glorifying it outright. And that strikes a lot of us as being antithetical to the very concept of Star Trek.

 

[Christopher]

and it's generally acknowledged that because of the hot, cramped conditions, WWII submariners generally served in little more than their underwear...

That would explain why, on Gerry Anderson's UFO, the crew of the Skydiver submarine wore fishnet shirts (although the women had bras or camisoles on under them). I'd found that rather bizarre, but I guess there's a precedent for it.

Although that doesn't begin to explain why the women on the Moonbase wore purple wigs...

 

[hbquikcomjamesl]

Take the Pampanito tour, the next time you're in San Francisco. And spring for the audio tour. Although it's not as good on iPods as it was on the original proprietary playback units.

 

[J.T.B.]

Hmmm, very good point. I don't think, though, that there could be said to have ever been a military whose foremost purpose wasn't defence and/or politically-motivated combat. Other duties and functions, no matter how frequent, are surely secondary to that purpose, otherwise why have civilian institutions? Those other roles are surely expansions of the military's utility, and not defining of the organization as a whole. Starfleet often stresses that its foremost purpose is scientific or exploratory. Is it possible to have a military in which political violence and/or defence is not the primary purpose of the institution? I suppose that in itself is an intriguing transcendence.

Yes, but likewise there has never been a real military organization with origins comparable to Starfleet. From what we've seen, it appears that venturing into deep space quickly turned into a very dangerous business. As I've said before, if the British ships exploring the oceans 200 years ago were met with equally- or more-powerful adversaries that threatened to destroy them, their colonies and maybe even London itself, the Royal Navy would no doubt have evolved much differently, exploration and defense becoming completely intertwined

In Roddenberry's original conception, rank was greatly simplified: anybody who wasn't a lieutenant, lieutenant commander, captain, commodore, or admiral was an ensign (including people like Yeoman Rand and Crewman Green), in part because we weren't at the time (and so far as I'm aware, still generally aren't) sending enlisted military personnel into space.

He said that in TMoST, anyway. But it didn't make it to the screen, where we saw "yeoman third class," "technician first class," "engineer grade four," and "chief" as well as "crewman."

Consider uniforms: military uniforms within recent history tend to be as festooned with insignia as safety and practicality permit, from rank, rating, and length-of-service insignia to at least the ribbons for decorations, medals, citations, proficiency badges, &c. There were of course exceptions: one doesn't generally wear service ribbons to clean out latrines, and it's generally acknowledged that because of the hot, cramped conditions, WWII submariners generally served in little more than their underwear, but still, the rule is otherwise. Compare that with Starfleet: duty uniforms with nothing more than either a "warp delta" or an individual ship insignia on the chest, and fairly subtle, unobtrusive rank insignia.

Dress uniforms, yes, but what's worn for everyday shipboard or field duty is much simpler, and has been since WW2 for pretty much all services. The US Navy's standard at-sea coveralls, for instance, show four things: Service (U.S. NAVY, L. chest), last name (R. chest), rank/rate (collar) and warfare qualification (surface, air, submarine etc., L. chest). The chest tapes are currently being replaced with a single left chest nametag patch, with warfare device and printed name, unit and service all together. Pretty simple. Especially compared to the WOK uniforms.

 

[The Wormhole]

In Roddenberry's original conception, rank was greatly simplified: anybody who wasn't a lieutenant, lieutenant commander, captain, commodore, or admiral was an ensign (including people like Yeoman Rand and Crewman Green), in part because we weren't at the time (and so far as I'm aware, still generally aren't) sending enlisted military personnel into space.

Which is fine today, since anyone going into space goes there in shuttles or other type of small capsules which don't fit a lot of people and the military personnel who are sent are usually pilots or commanders, which are typically officer positions.

Realistically, an organization like Starfleet with crews of hundreds on their ships, regardless if it's military or not would need something like separate officer and enlisted job categories in order to function.

 

[Nerroth]

By comparison with the on-screen (or novelverse) take on things, there would be a higher proportion of "military sci-fi" stories in print for the Star Fleet Universe.

Or, I should say, that "wartime" stories are more common, since many published SFU fiction pieces are set in conflicts like the General War; while even "peacetime" stories set aboard a starship (or otherwise involving personnel from Star Fleet or a rival space navy) work under the concept that such forces are explicitly classed as militaries.

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As for the structure and role of the SFU Federation's space-faring assets, files like Prime Directive Federation divide things up into a series of separate, yet broadly overlapping, competences.

Star Fleet (which uses a series of commissioned and enlisted ranks) operates mostly as the "navy", with numbered fleets assigned to each active border: the First (Home) Fleet protects the Federation's core provinces, the Third Fleet is stationed to the Klingon border, the Sixth Fleet sits on the Fed side of the Romulan NZ, etc. However, the Second Fleet is assigned to be the premier survey/exploration fleet and operates a series of dedicated survey cruisers, mostly in the coreward Survey Area. (While the Second is the only numbered fleet whose primary focus is on survey work, other Star Fleet ships are still expected to engage in such efforts as a part of their typical array of responsibilities.) Boarding parties are handled by a separate branch of service, the Star Fleet Marines.

Most of the "coast guard" operations are handled by a separate organization, the Federation Police. A large number of police cutters go about their business across Federation space, though they can call upon Star Fleet for aid in various trouble spots.

Meanwhile, the various major planets each possess their own National Guards, which typically operate hand-me-downs from the prior generation of Star Fleet service. These National Guard ships are somewhat obsolete compared to the ships used by Star Fleet and the Federation Police, but at least the National Guards can help train reservists which may be called upon in times of crisis. (Star Fleet maintains a "mothball reserve" of ships which are rushed into service in case of emergencies - such as full-scale invasions by the Klingons or Romulans.)

Other empires in the Alpha Octant (the "local" region of the galaxy as outlined in the SFU) operate similarly. For example, the SFU Klingons (who are based more on TOS and TAS, due to the arcane nature of ADB's licensing agreements) have a Deep Space Fleet which defends and expands the Empire's holdings; an Internal Security Force, which acts as a more militarized counterpart to the Federation Police; and various Local Defence Forces stationed at key planets, operating older ships no longer used by the DSF.

 

[Idran]

What's the Star Fleet Universe?

 

[Nerroth]

It's the setting used for Amarillo Design Bureau's published works, such as Star Fleet Battles, Federation Commander, and the Prime Directive RPG systems.

ADB's licences are somewhat arcane, since they were drawn up at at a very particular time in the Franchise's history - you could say that the SFU derives as much from Franz Joseph's Star Fleet Technical Manual as it does from the specific sub-set of pre-1979 on-screen source material it is permitted to use.

In the SFU, "Star Fleet" is two words; the Klingons all look like the ones from TOS and TAS; the Kzinti/s are somewhat different than Ringworld/The Slaver Weapon's Kzin/ti; and while there are neither Bajorans nor Breen nor Borg, there is a large number of "SFU-native" empires in their place.

Three such factions, the Lyrans, Hydrans, and ISC, were featured in the first two-and-a-half Starfleet Command PC games (which themselves were a hybrid of sorts between the early movie-era Franchise and certain elements derived from the SFU), while Taldren's Mirak Star League was a re-work of how the SFU portrays the Kzinti Hegemony.

It may not be canon Trek, but it's probably its closest living relative - and since other non-Trek franchises (such as Stargate) were being used for comparison's sake, I thought it worth noting how "Star Fleet" operates, as opposed to what has been shown for "Starfleet" on screen or in-print post-1979.

 

[Christopher]

It may not be canon Trek, but it's probably its closest living relative

I think that's an enormous overstatement. After all, it's a tie-in to a tie-in, based on games and a technical manual that were based in turn on the franchise. That makes it one step further removed from the canon than works that are derived directly from it, like the Pocket novels. Also it's derived only from the first decade or so of the canon and none of the series and movies that have been added to it since then, whereas other tie-ins are able to use all of the canon. So it's considerably more detached from the canon in that sense as well. The earlier the branching, the more distant the relationship.

 

[Nerroth]

It may not be canon Trek, but it's probably its closest living relative

I think that's an enormous overstatement. After all, it's a tie-in to a tie-in, based on games and a technical manual that were based in turn on the franchise. That makes it one step further removed from the canon than works that are derived directly from it, like the Pocket novels. Also it's derived only from the first decade or so of the canon and none of the series and movies that have been added to it since then, whereas other tie-ins are able to use all of the canon. So it's considerably more detached from the canon in that sense as well. The earlier the branching, the more distant the relationship.

Perhaps a better way to put it would have been to say that it's the closest living relative to either the on-screen Franchise or to the stable of in-print novels and other works which bear the "Star Trek" name.

(But then, it is probably their only living relative in that sense - since there is no other active licensed product that both is, and is not, tied to the Franchise in quite the same way that the SFU would be.)

The SFU has gone in its own direction for a while now, both by design and out of necessity. Yet while the SFU timeline has a distinct end-date (explained in-character by the same "U.S. Air Force data tapes" which the Star Fleet Technical Manual claims as its primary source), there are points in which events in the SFU run parallel to what the Franchise (or the novelverse) has portrayed.

For example, while there is no NX-01 in the SFU, there are a series of Terran, Vulcan, Andorian, and other "pre-Star Fleet" ships featured in the Early Years of the SFU Federation. Yet in this case, none of the old Earth ships had the classic "saucer and nacelle" layout; that was exclusively used by the first ships built from the keel up to serve in the United Star Fleet, in order to distinguish them from their forebears. (As Star Fleet took up the reins, what remained of the old planetary navies gradually evolved into a series of National Guards.)

But I suppose the broader point might be that the SFU does not (and probably should not) be judged solely on its relation to the Franchise, but rather as an entity in its own right. Yet at the same time, the very nature of its existence would mean that there would remain a somewhat parallel element to certain aspects of its ongoing development, even as the divergence point between it and its Franchise (and novelverse) counterparts recedes further away in time.