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Is J.J. Abams "Star Trek" Sustainable?

It's very doom and gloom where it should be hope and celebration.

I'm curious. When you say you want "hope and celebration," what kind of story are you advocating?

I mean, sure, Trek is no dystopia, but, as far back as the original series, there's always been plenty of jeopardy, drama, conflict, and heartbreak. Remote colonies and outposts get wiped out by exotic menaces. Hostile aliens threaten the crew. The Enterprise is on the verge of blowing up in five minutes. Kirk needs kill his best friend to save his ship. Joan Collins has to be thrown under a bus . . . .

Last time I checked, all those redshirts didn't die from an excess of "hope and celebration." The Final Frontier can be a very dangerous place . . . and that's always been reflected in the shows and movies.

Seriously, how do you translate abstract notions like "hope and celebration" into an engrossing adventure or drama? By throwing in lots of inspirational speeches? By avoiding conflict and disaster? I admit, I'm not sure what sort of plot you're advocating, as opposed to something that puts our heroes through the wringer.

"Hope and celebration" are something you save for the end of the story. But first you need to test your heroes by putting them through hell . . ..

You misunderstood, I was speaking about the people who were certain that Trek was ending or that general movie taste was in the shitter, etc.

I actually prefer the idea of Earth being optimistic instead of "perfect" as per Gene's vision. TNG always struck me as odd in that respect.
 
Don't forget they pew pewwed the asteroid in the wormhole in TMP. And the transporter accident,

True, but I left the minor Pew!Pew!s out because they were so minor. If they didn't reach a minimum of Die Hard levels of Pew!Pew!, I put them aside. :D

THIS.

Actually, as somebody else said, Trek was an action franchise from the second pilot of the original series.

Indeed. Star Trek was Horatio Hornblower in space. It was a shoot 'em up, dynamic action adventure. Yes, there were high minded ideas, but the meat of the show was "We come in peace, shoot to kill, shoot to kill, shoot to kill, we come in peace, shoot to kill, shoot to kill, men!"

(borrowed from Star Trekkin' a bit. ;) )
 
In my experience, when you start putting the "message" ahead of the plot and characters, you end up with sermons, not stories!
It is not ahead of the plot and characters, it is behind them, in the background.
Do you know "Children of Men"? The background, in this case a political one which is very vivid, does not interfere with the plot. But the movie wouldn't be the same without it.
Or take the fictional historical genetic experimentation stuff, it served as background for Kodos, Khan, the pilot of TNG, the end of ENT and Bashir. Fictional politics and history belong in the background but the stories wouldn't work without them.

About your dislike for sermons, I agree. Another word for background in this context is ideology in the Marxian sense of 'they don't know it, but they are doing it'. If all the utopian elements of Trek have become automatic such that the respective writers isn't even aware of them his work will most likely be better.


Yes, but even the bad ones held onto what Trek is: a cerebral science fiction series for people who like to think. That sort of thing doesn't translate well from TV to the big screen, but when they got it right, they got it RIGHT. The last movie completely erased that and turned it into an action movie. A very entertaining and beautiful action movie, but it wasn't really Trek.
TWOK) Revenge. Explosions. Getting old. KHAAAAAAAN! A FUCK TON of Pew!Pew!
FC) BOOM! Sweaty Borg. Sexual healing. Drunks. A METRIC FUCK TON of Pew!Pew!
While TWOK and FC do include some action they also contain some slower parts and interesting themes. The mixture is what makes them work so well.
A purely idea-based movie like TMP fails and a pure action movie like NEM fails as well.
 
While TWOK and FC do include some action they also contain some slower parts and interesting themes. The mixture is what makes them work so well.
A purely idea-based movie like TMP fails and a pure action movie like NEM fails as well.

Agreed. A movie that is nonstop action (like Van Helsing) gets exhausting very fast. Even Raiders of the Lost Ark knew enough to break up the wild action sequences, with quieter, more character-oriented scenes. ("Indy, maybe the Ark is not meant to be found.")

Personally, I thought the last movie had lots of good character bits, between Spock and Sarek, for instance, or Spock and Uhura, or Kirk and Pine, etc. It wasn't just space battles and 'splosions.

Regarding ideology, I tend to think that if you put (hopefully) interesting characters in difficult situations, emotionally or otherwise, themes and messages and such will just arise organically from the plot, without trying to deliberately impose them on the story.

For myself, when I sit down at the keyboard in the morning, I'm not thinking what Important Statement can I make about racism or global warming today, I'm putting myself in my character's heads and trying to figure out how they're going to react to whatever trouble I throw at them. :)

And, oh yeah, deadlines. :)
 
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TWOK is a snooze if its an action movie.

But its true some purists forget that TOS has a fistfight and Kirk's torn shirt in practically every episode. Kirk has patented moves for cryin out loud.
 
Yes, but even the bad ones held onto what Trek is: a cerebral science fiction series for people who like to think. That sort of thing doesn't translate well from TV to the big screen, but when they got it right, they got it RIGHT. The last movie completely erased that and turned it into an action movie. A very entertaining and beautiful action movie, but it wasn't really Trek.

No, they didn't.

TMP) Somewhat cerebral. Mostly a 2001 knockoff. Illia in a ridiculously short skirt.
TWOK) Revenge. Explosions. Getting old. KHAAAAAAAN! A FUCK TON of Pew!Pew!
TSFS) GE-NE-SIS?! Kirk's son killed. Get out! Get out of there! Lots of Pew!Pew!
TVH) They are not the hell your whales. One damn minute, Admiral.
TFF) Three boobed cat stripper. Sha-ka-ree. Lots of Pew!Pew!
TUC) Racism. Cold War. Shakespeare. Lots of Pew!Pew!
GEN) Fantasy land. Duras Sisters. Enterprise go Boom. Lots of Pew!Pew!
FC) BOOM! Sweaty Borg. Sexual healing. Drunks. A METRIC FUCK TON of Pew!Pew!
INS) Face lift. Forced relocation. F. Murray Abraham on a couch. Lots of poorly paced Pew!Pew!
NEM) Dune buggy. Mentally deficient android. Slowly moving doom device. Lots of random Pew!Pew!

I have highlighted two of the most popular pre-JJ Trek movies in the fandom.
Trek was an action franchise from the second movie installment onward. To suggest otherwise is to completely ignore everything beyond The Motion Picture.
Don't forget they pew pewwed the asteroid in the wormhole in TMP. And the transporter accident,

Of course the transporter accident resulted in an altogether different "pew-pew"... What? Too soon?
 
Agreed. A movie that is nonstop action (like Van Helsing) gets exhausting very fast.

"Van Helsing" is a great example of what I fear may happen with the Trek franchise in that VH was a well polished production yet it failed because it felt very smug and self-satisfied ... as though all involved thought that it was good enough just to go by numbers.

Even Raiders of the Lost Ark knew enough to break up the wild action sequences, with quieter, more character-oriented scenes. ("Indy, maybe the Ark is not meant to be found.")

Another great example. I would also add one of my absolute favorite action-adventure films "Last of the Mohicans," the version starring Daniel Day-Lewis and directed by Michael Mann. Almost non-stop action yet is able to tell an epic story. Even last year's James Bond movie, "Skyfall," gave us a well-motivated action film loaded with character - that film restored my faith in the commercial motion-picture industry and the action genre specifically.

Personally, I thought the last movie had lots of good character bits, between Spock and Sarek, for instance, or Spock and Uhura, or Kirk and Pine, etc. It wasn't just space battles and 'splosions.

Bits, yes. The Spock character fared the best in terms of character while James Kirk was developed in almost an aburb and cartoonish way going from birth to captain of the Enterprise so very, very quickly. The film sought to swing from one high-spot to another and, as you say, that leads to exhaustion.

It also can lead, in my opinion, to audience desensitization where the constant overwhelming of peoples senses causes them to become numbed or indifferent to the action thereby actual reaching a state of diminishing returns. That is why I worry about all the CGI heavy super-action sequences one after another. In and of itself, CGI is a wonderful ingrediant when skillfully measured out otherwise it can overwhelm the palate.


Regarding ideology, I tend to think that if you put (hopefully) interesting characters in difficult situations, emotionally or otherwise, themes and messages and such will just arise organically from the plot, without trying to deliberately impose them on the story.

I so very much agree. It is ideology and attitude. I am one of those that believes it takes just as much time, effort and resources to make a a "bad" film as it does to make a "good" one (or one that falls somewhere in-between). If one takes the time to tend their garden then much will present itself for harvest.

Which is why Nemesis upset me so. TPTB of that one clearly seemed to try and fool folks by pulling plastic carrots out of the ground then wondering aloud why no one was buying what they were selling.

For myself, when I sit down at the keyboard in the morning, I'm not thinking what Important Statement can I make about racism or global warming today, I'm putting myself in my character's heads and trying to figure out how they're going to react to whatever trouble I throw at them.

Not disagreeing with you ... just adding my take on it:

I don't believe folks are looking for "Star Trek" to be message heavy or preachy per se as most fans love spirited-adventure, however, it is more satisfying when embued with the illusion of meaning. That it represents something of noble quest beyond that of repetitiously slaying the big bad dragons.

Kirk and company have always been Arthurian in a futuristic Camelot. As such, fandom, I believe has come to hold it to a higher standard of expecting something more than just a hedonistic thrill-ride of CGI ad infinitum.

Again, all in my opinion and with repect to all others presented here.
 
Personally, I thought the last movie had lots of good character bits, between Spock and Sarek, for instance, or Spock and Uhura, or Kirk and Pine, etc. It wasn't just space battles and 'splosions.

Kirk and Pine, eh? I guess Picard did say that if you travel far enough, you'll meet yourself. And heaven knows, the warp curve in JJ-verse allows for some pretty damn fast traveling. :lol:

(I kid, of course I know it's suppsed to be Pike. All in good fun.)
 
What is up with Alice Eve's accent in the trailers?

Are we supposed to assume that because of the "Nero butterfly effect" Abramsverse Carol grew up in Ireland or something?
 
Why not? Though I'd think London more likely if there is any tie to the plot and her background.

It's easily imaginable that events unfolded in such a way that Admiral Marcus could have made different choices about how and where to raise his daughter. This hardly represents a deal-breaker (at least it certainly shouldn't).
 
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