is it too techno-babbly?

[Cyke101]

Heck, I blame Reading Rainbow

 

[rocketscientist]

The techno babble content was just right for me, it made the show seem more realistic and gave it detail. I mean, they're flying through space in a massive piece of complex technology that they rely upon for their survival. They're scientists and explorers who study the galaxy with their technology. Of course they're going to talk about it. About lines like "Bypass the main plasma conduit!", I don't know what would have worked better. For my tastes, anything else would have seemed too simplistic. Without the techno babble, we'd be complaining about how Janeway always gave orders like "Fix that engine!" or "Make the weapons work better!" and it would seem like technology could be enhanced by the magic of Janeway's voice.

I actually wish the other series had more techno babble. TOS kind of stands alone, though. It was high camp and it doesn't really matter that the technology was a completely mystery.

I agree. For me, I am able to keep track of all the words(by the end I pretty much knew what they were talking about;

You did? Well, I've taken courses on plasma dynamics, quantum mechanics, electrodynamics, and a lot of other courses, and I still couldn't understand exactly what they were talking about.

the terms and vocab they used was pretty consistant throughout the series, I thought) and I liked pretending that it was legit futuristic science and that I could totally do it if I was smart enough.

Yeah, I think the Mike Okuda and Sternbach and their science adisor (Boramis? when they actually listened to him), tried to keep things consistent. That can be a good thing, it can indeed add some realism to the show. It's when the technobabble gets out of control that it dictates plot or takes one out of the episode, that's when it becomes a bad thing. I really do think it just wasn't necessary to have so much of it in TNG and VOY. They didn't have nearly as much in the original ST and it's still on the air after 40 years.

I thought it gave the crewmembers a certain brain power, because they could think so many complicated things in a such a short ammount of time, under a LOT of pressure.

I can see that. On the other hand, with me, it just made them seem a bit unrealistic. It's like they all have PhDs and are geniuses in the 24th century. Kirk's crew-members didn't sound like they were A++++ geniuses with IQs of over 200, and I think that made them more relatable. I talk with engineers all the time, and I can assure you, we don't lace that much technobabble in our technical discussions.

I think that's one of the things that bothered me about TNG, all the characters seemed to know way too much about other technical and scientific fields. That seemed kind of unrealistic.

It parallels our modern taste for realism, also. With TOS, it was made in the middle of the sixties where similar entertainment was just coming down from 40 years of flawless heros, and black and white morality. Anything revolutionary(as Star Trek certainly seems to have been) can only go a certain distance a head of everything else, because it only has so much to go on. Thus, while taking a retrospective look at humanity, it still held the "high camp" of the 50s/60s sci-fi genre, which, with the help of Star Trek and other series, has gone beyond The Adventures of Captain Proton. I guess the side-effect of more realism(as real as sci-fi can get) in the star trek universe has been techno-babble. Or, the writers could indeed just be lazy.

Anyway, I take as it comes.

Camp, according to Webster's:

2 b: a style or mode of personal or creative expression that is absurdly exaggerated and often fuses elements of high and popular culture <a movie that celebrates camp>

I actually think this definition is applicable to all the incarnations of ST, insofar as fusing "elements of high and popular culture." I wouldn't say any of them are "absurdly exagerrated." I'd say the acting is somewhat exagerrated in the same way as theatre often is. For example, none of the ST shows, imo, are as grittly acted as the new Battlestar Galactica. And I disagree that "fantasy" technobabble is necessary for "realism." In fact, if anything, the make-believe technobabble takes me out of the story, because I'm trying to figure out how the hell what they're saying makes any sense at all (it typically doesn't). BSG doesn't have nearly as much technobabble as TNG and VOY did and it's critically praised. In that sense, it's more in line with the original ST, relying more on the drama and characters, instead of sfx and the accompanying technobabble.

 

[Triskelion]

Heck, I blame Reading Rainbow

Don't get me started on PBS!


Rocketscientist, thanks for clarifying your response and the compliment. Gamesters was one of my faves too!


VOY does use TB as a deus ex machina far too much. There should be a drinking game where you have to take a drink every time someone rotates a frequency....

 

[Triskelion]

double post

 

[Michael]

^ Well, FWIW, there's actually a delete post function. It only works the first few minutes though.

 

[CorporalClegg]

Heck, I blame Reading Rainbow

Blasphemer!

 

[Mr. Fergy]

It is definitely the most techno-babbly show in all of Trek--but I just don't care, I find it entertaining anyway.

Agreed. It puts some of the base fans off, IMHO.

 

[jimbtnp2]

It is definitely the most techno-babbly show in all of Trek--but I just don't care, I find it entertaining anyway.

entertaining like watching a train wreck or a hillary clinton speech

 

[jimbtnp2]

My wife and I are watching voyager on DVD and we both have come to the conclusion that voyager is just too techno-babbly. We enjoyed The Next Generation fine, the movies greatly and even enterprise on ocation; however, voyager just rubs me the wrong way.

I enjoy the show fine enough for its entertainment value but they pull out a dues-ex machine almost every other episode with some type of techno-babble that makes your head spin.

I suppose the questions are: is this a reality or am I just making this up, and two; is this because they figure nerds like techno-babble?

it's Stat Trek, it's set in the future....did you expect there to be no technobabble? And your "nerds like techno babble" is kind of offensive.

actually TOS didn't have it, and he's right

 

[jimbtnp2]

the past 40 years of Star Trek

Strange argument.

I'm saying that Star Trek has established itself as a show with techno babble in it. It's expected that a show with Star Trek in the title will have techno babble

not TOS or S1 TNG

 

[jimbtnp2]

thank you, that's what I was trying to say, but only not as well

You're welcome!

Except, its the technobabel that makes Star Trek less accessable and gives it the "uber Nerd" stigma.

That sounds about right. But I also think ST fans get the "uber nerd" label too frequently compared to other groups of sci-fi fans. The earlier fans set the nerd ball rolling and there's been no stopping it.

I think people are generally put-off by exposition, and when that exposition is and endless deluge of gobbledygook, they are put-off completely.

That's what they said about the X-files (talk about exposition).

X-file exposition was surround or used to enhance the story, it never was techno babble

 

[jimbtnp2]

"That Which Survives" (TOS) would probably win the award for Most Technobabble in a TOS Episode. Still doesn't compare to the barrage of [tech] that floods your average VOY episode. Fortunately I'm able to tune it out for the most part and enjoy the stories.

what stories?

 

[Michael]

 

[jimbtnp2]

This is an issue I feel rather strongly about. Good stories in any genre are about people. CSI, for example, uses more jargon than your average show ("Get the vic's DNA from these epithelials and run it through CODIS") but the writers always show us how the information gained via dry forensic procedure is affecting the characters in a vital and human way. The show is about the people, not the crimesolving technique. Most of the time, Voyager failed in that area. How many episodes were there where the solution to the problem of the week basically boiled down to the characters sitting at a console pressing buttons while spouting incomprehensible (to 99.9% of the population) made-up technobabble? That's bad writing. Period.

In the original Star Trek writer's guide, Gene Roddenberry said that a good Star Trek story should, if stripped of its science fiction elements, be able to be adapted to any other one-hour drama in primetime. How many Voyager stories fit that criteria? How many of them are really about the characters being affected in a real, organic, human way by the events of the episode?

To pick an example at random, take the episode "The Omega Directive". The whole thing is an exercise in technobabble. The only piece of character drama, Seven's reverence for the Omega molecule, is just too damn hard for the average person to relate to. Why should we care about a mostly emotionless cyborg's vaguely religious feelings for a technobabbly subatomic particle that's just a shiny special effect anyway? We're never really given a reason. Seven's dilemma is never made relatable in a human way. Most of Voyager was exactly the same. If you strip the science fiction (or science fantasy, if you prefer) elements from 98% of Voyager's episodes, you're left with nothing more than the plot for a Saturday-morning cartoon at the very most.

I realize my views are in the minority in this forum, but 99% of the viewing public didn't watch the show and were only vaguely aware of it, so I'd say my views are fairly typical in a larger context.

well thought and stated, great post

 

[jimbtnp2]

No, it's a reality. One of the most persistent and widespread criticisms of Voyager from many quarters over several years is the show's excessive reliance on technobabble. Common criticisms are using it to pad running time, using it as an incomprehensible deus ex machina, and sometimes it's accused of misusing scientific terminology (so that it's not entertaining even on that technical level).

Truthfully, it was an issue with TNG as well, though less so; DS9 and ENT seemed to have largely kept it in check (and quite absent from TOS).

I think you summed up the technobabble criticism really well.

In any case, I'm in agreement with others here as not caring for the technobabble much. The original show had comparitavely little. Why? I believe it was partly due to having limited effects and budget. How can they shoot a wave of anti-chronoton particles at the the anomaly to close it if they can't get the effect for it?

The lack of technobabble was also probably due to the time of the original show as well. There weren't many sci-fi shows on at the time, and ST largely set the standard. There wasn't much to compare it against (Lost in Space? Voyager to the Bottom of the Sea?!?!).

In any case, I think that was one of the strengths of the original show. It didn't rely on the technobabble crutch the way that its spin-offs did. It was a leaner show, more theatrical, and, as a consequence, I think that was one of its strengths. It was a lot more theatrical in that regard, and that made the writers, the directors, and the actors work harder to make good drama (and comedy). The proof of the success of that approach is evident: the original show is still syndicated and shown 40 years after its debut. It has been on almost continously since it's premiere.

As someone else here noted, the excessive technobabble began during the Berman era of Trek on TNG. Now, as an engineer, I didn't have a problem with that initially. Taken in moderation, it did add some color to the show and help to differentiate TNG from ST. I'm not sure why there was so much more technobabble in TNG than there was in ST. Maybe it was because they wanted to make TNG more real. Maybe it was because they had better effects. In any case, it was one of those elements of TNG, along with GR perfect people edict, the A+B plot formula, kids and a shrink on the ship, which, imo, really differentiated TNG from ST. IMO, it was a pretty significant difference in the writing of the two shows.

Most of the time, I don't think it hurt TNG that much. But there were some episodes, i.e. the episode Timeless, where time is frozen on the Enterprise and the Romulan ship, where it seemed that's all the episode was about: sfx and technobabble. Even in the worsts episodes of the original ST (episodes like Way to Eden, Lights of Zetar, and the film TFF), there was, at the very least, some good characters beats and scenes.

With VOY, both the sfx and technobabble were ramped up by a couple orders of magnitude from TNG. It was really excessive and I think VOY really suffered from it. The deux ex machina comment is right on. Other examples are the stupid Nexus in TNG and all those other space anomalies Braga kept inventing, 99% of which are pure fantasy and have no basis in real science.

In fact, as Kegek pointed, most of that technobabble in VOY, hell, most of the science depicted, is just pure fantasy.

Some VOY fans have said that VOY is more like the original ST than TNG was because of its premise. One ship all alone in uncharted place, exploring strange new worlds. In premise, yes, it's similar. In execution, however, especially wrt the technobabble, and, to a lesser extent the GR perfect people edict (VOY didn't follow this rule as much as TNG did), VOY, imo, is far more like TNG. I regard it as TNG v2.

So, yeah, I really do think the technobabble was really out of control on VOY. Many times, it really was a story-telling crutch and I do think it sometimes hurt the story. I really still, to this day, don't understand why they relied on it so much in the ST spinoffs, especially TNG and VOY. It just seems largely unnecessary.

Oh, and I'd love someone to do a comparison of a tech-heavy original ST episode with a typical VOY episode. I'd wager the VOY episode would have a lot more technobabble in it by far.

You sound like a smart guy. The answer to your question on why they used Technobabble in TNG-VOY is simple. A complete LACK of creativity and talent in writers, directors and just about everyone involved in the whole production. Why bring in cretive people when you can write a story with a in 5 minutes using technobabble?

 

[Deks]

While I agree that techno-babble could have been a bit better used throughout the shows ... I personally didn't find it to present an issue of any kind.

If anything, the episodes containing techno-babble were one of my favorites.

I think some people are allergic to it due to the fact it can push the character problems aside and focus the story on the techno part.

However you cannot expect to have a scifi show set over 300 years in the future without resorting to technology most of the time to solve your problems when technology was responsible for the said problems in the first place.
In numerous occasions it goes beyond the ability of the characters to solve the problems without resorting to techno-babble.
So unless you expect of Picard to discuss with Data about finer points of humanity over a cup of tea and crumpets while his ship is in the process of developing a core breach...

Voyager was able to have numerous episodes in which they had a moderate amount of techno-babble with moderate amount of focus on the characters.
Those 'balanced' episodes worked best for everyone.

Although ... tell me something, if techno-babble is supposed to be so offensive, then why do fans glorify the last 2 episodes of TNG as ones of the best?

DS9 on the other hand had a serious issue with techno-babble, almost avoided it altogether, and along with it created a dumbed down version of the Federation, Klingons and Romulans put together so they'd be threatened to lose the war.
A lot of the aspects in DS9 suffered as a result.
The stories were nothing special in my opinion on Ds9 to tell you the truth, but what I found problematic was how the writers dumbed almost every single aspect so the Dominion would be in a position to win.
Not to mention the infamous usage of the wormhole aliens to remove the Dominion fleet of almost 3000 ships so the alpha quadrant wouldn't fall.

 

[rocketscientist]

While I agree that techno-babble could have been a bit better used throughout the shows ... I personally didn't find it to present an issue of any kind.

If anything, the episodes containing techno-babble were one of my favorites.

I think some people are allergic to it due to the fact it can push the character problems aside and focus the story on the techno part.

Yup, that's it. ST was founded on focusing on the characters right from the beginning. That was GR's selling point for the show, for the stories to be about the characters and humanity, not about anomalies in space and technobabble. Michael Pillar, Ron Moore, and Ira Steven Beher believed that too. The excessive technobabble imo takes away from that focus on the characters.

However you cannot expect to have a scifi show set over 300 years in the future without resorting to technology most of the time to solve your problems when technology was responsible for the said problems in the first place.

Why not? The original show got away with it.

In numerous occasions it goes beyond the ability of the characters to solve the problems without resorting to techno-babble.

And those are the good stories.

So unless you expect of Picard to discuss with Data about finer points of humanity over a cup of tea and crumpets while his ship is in the process of developing a core breach...

Well, of course some requisite technobabble is necessary. It's just when it's excessive and used as a deux ex machina that it becomes detrimental. That happened a lot on Voyager. It became really irritating to me, someone who grew up with the original show and was an original TNG fan. And it's not because I'm not used to it, I'm an engineer with a Ph.D. It's the fact that it's virtually total nonsense and it's used to wrap up all the problems in the final act, or that it runs the story itself, removing the focus from the characters. I don't watch trek for the technobabble, I watch it for the characters and the adventure.

Voyager was able to have numerous episodes in which they had a moderate amount of techno-babble with moderate amount of focus on the characters.
Those 'balanced' episodes worked best for everyone.

Very true.

Although ... tell me something, if techno-babble is supposed to be so offensive, then why do fans glorify the last 2 episodes of TNG as ones of the best?

Well, imo, it's because it focused on the show's characters, presenting them in three eras and showing how they'd changed and developed and what they could become. It also underlined GR's ST philosophy that humanity will continue to evolve and grow. You're right that there was a fair amount of technobabble in that finale and it was a complicated story to follow with anti-time and the like. But, ultimately, it was more about the characters than tb. The characters weren't overwhelmed by the science-talk.

DS9 on the other hand had a serious issue with techno-babble, almost avoided it altogether, and along with it created a dumbed down version of the Federation, Klingons and Romulans put together so they'd be threatened to lose the war.

Actually, I preferred DS9 for that very reason. I thought, stylistically, in that way, it was more like the original show, focusing on the characters instead of the technobabble. That, imo, is what made it dramatically superior to TNG and VOY.

A lot of the aspects in DS9 suffered as a result.

I thought they benifitted from it. In many ways DS9 was closer to the original show than TNG and VOY were.

The stories were nothing special in my opinion on Ds9 to tell you the truth, but what I found problematic was how the writers dumbed almost every single aspect so the Dominion would be in a position to win.
Not to mention the infamous usage of the wormhole aliens to remove the Dominion fleet of almost 3000 ships so the alpha quadrant wouldn't fall.

I didn't think DS9 dumbed down anything. And, as for the finale, how is that different from what VOY did to the Borg with their magic technology in Endgame. Yeah, DS9 had a deux ex machina in that episode, but it was set up right from the beginning and was invented on the fly like a lot of Voyager. Moreover, as you know, Sisko had to pay a price for the Prophets intervention. It's different from what happened repeatedly on VOY.

 

[rocketscientist]

No, it's a reality. One of the most persistent and widespread criticisms of Voyager from many quarters over several years is the show's excessive reliance on technobabble. Common criticisms are using it to pad running time, using it as an incomprehensible deus ex machina, and sometimes it's accused of misusing scientific terminology (so that it's not entertaining even on that technical level).

Truthfully, it was an issue with TNG as well, though less so; DS9 and ENT seemed to have largely kept it in check (and quite absent from TOS).

I think you summed up the technobabble criticism really well.

In any case, I'm in agreement with others here as not caring for the technobabble much. The original show had comparitavely little. Why? I believe it was partly due to having limited effects and budget. How can they shoot a wave of anti-chronoton particles at the the anomaly to close it if they can't get the effect for it?

The lack of technobabble was also probably due to the time of the original show as well. There weren't many sci-fi shows on at the time, and ST largely set the standard. There wasn't much to compare it against (Lost in Space? Voyager to the Bottom of the Sea?!?!).

In any case, I think that was one of the strengths of the original show. It didn't rely on the technobabble crutch the way that its spin-offs did. It was a leaner show, more theatrical, and, as a consequence, I think that was one of its strengths. It was a lot more theatrical in that regard, and that made the writers, the directors, and the actors work harder to make good drama (and comedy). The proof of the success of that approach is evident: the original show is still syndicated and shown 40 years after its debut. It has been on almost continously since it's premiere.

As someone else here noted, the excessive technobabble began during the Berman era of Trek on TNG. Now, as an engineer, I didn't have a problem with that initially. Taken in moderation, it did add some color to the show and help to differentiate TNG from ST. I'm not sure why there was so much more technobabble in TNG than there was in ST. Maybe it was because they wanted to make TNG more real. Maybe it was because they had better effects. In any case, it was one of those elements of TNG, along with GR perfect people edict, the A+B plot formula, kids and a shrink on the ship, which, imo, really differentiated TNG from ST. IMO, it was a pretty significant difference in the writing of the two shows.

Most of the time, I don't think it hurt TNG that much. But there were some episodes, i.e. the episode Timeless, where time is frozen on the Enterprise and the Romulan ship, where it seemed that's all the episode was about: sfx and technobabble. Even in the worsts episodes of the original ST (episodes like Way to Eden, Lights of Zetar, and the film TFF), there was, at the very least, some good characters beats and scenes.

With VOY, both the sfx and technobabble were ramped up by a couple orders of magnitude from TNG. It was really excessive and I think VOY really suffered from it. The deux ex machina comment is right on. Other examples are the stupid Nexus in TNG and all those other space anomalies Braga kept inventing, 99% of which are pure fantasy and have no basis in real science.

In fact, as Kegek pointed, most of that technobabble in VOY, hell, most of the science depicted, is just pure fantasy.

Some VOY fans have said that VOY is more like the original ST than TNG was because of its premise. One ship all alone in uncharted place, exploring strange new worlds. In premise, yes, it's similar. In execution, however, especially wrt the technobabble, and, to a lesser extent the GR perfect people edict (VOY didn't follow this rule as much as TNG did), VOY, imo, is far more like TNG. I regard it as TNG v2.

So, yeah, I really do think the technobabble was really out of control on VOY. Many times, it really was a story-telling crutch and I do think it sometimes hurt the story. I really still, to this day, don't understand why they relied on it so much in the ST spinoffs, especially TNG and VOY. It just seems largely unnecessary.

Oh, and I'd love someone to do a comparison of a tech-heavy original ST episode with a typical VOY episode. I'd wager the VOY episode would have a lot more technobabble in it by far.

You sound like a smart guy. The answer to your question on why they used Technobabble in TNG-VOY is simple. A complete LACK of creativity and talent in writers, directors and just about everyone involved in the whole production. Why bring in cretive people when you can write a story with a in 5 minutes using technobabble?

I think that was often the case. There was the B plot where the anomaly was ultimately solved via analysis and technobabble and A plot where they had a character arc. The problem is, with Berman's A/B formula (that he used on VOY and TNG), that the A plot would often be overwhelmed by the B plot.

 

[jimbtnp2]

I think you summed up the technobabble criticism really well.

In any case, I'm in agreement with others here as not caring for the technobabble much. The original show had comparitavely little. Why? I believe it was partly due to having limited effects and budget. How can they shoot a wave of anti-chronoton particles at the the anomaly to close it if they can't get the effect for it?

The lack of technobabble was also probably due to the time of the original show as well. There weren't many sci-fi shows on at the time, and ST largely set the standard. There wasn't much to compare it against (Lost in Space? Voyager to the Bottom of the Sea?!?!).

In any case, I think that was one of the strengths of the original show. It didn't rely on the technobabble crutch the way that its spin-offs did. It was a leaner show, more theatrical, and, as a consequence, I think that was one of its strengths. It was a lot more theatrical in that regard, and that made the writers, the directors, and the actors work harder to make good drama (and comedy). The proof of the success of that approach is evident: the original show is still syndicated and shown 40 years after its debut. It has been on almost continously since it's premiere.

As someone else here noted, the excessive technobabble began during the Berman era of Trek on TNG. Now, as an engineer, I didn't have a problem with that initially. Taken in moderation, it did add some color to the show and help to differentiate TNG from ST. I'm not sure why there was so much more technobabble in TNG than there was in ST. Maybe it was because they wanted to make TNG more real. Maybe it was because they had better effects. In any case, it was one of those elements of TNG, along with GR perfect people edict, the A+B plot formula, kids and a shrink on the ship, which, imo, really differentiated TNG from ST. IMO, it was a pretty significant difference in the writing of the two shows.

Most of the time, I don't think it hurt TNG that much. But there were some episodes, i.e. the episode Timeless, where time is frozen on the Enterprise and the Romulan ship, where it seemed that's all the episode was about: sfx and technobabble. Even in the worsts episodes of the original ST (episodes like Way to Eden, Lights of Zetar, and the film TFF), there was, at the very least, some good characters beats and scenes.

With VOY, both the sfx and technobabble were ramped up by a couple orders of magnitude from TNG. It was really excessive and I think VOY really suffered from it. The deux ex machina comment is right on. Other examples are the stupid Nexus in TNG and all those other space anomalies Braga kept inventing, 99% of which are pure fantasy and have no basis in real science.

In fact, as Kegek pointed, most of that technobabble in VOY, hell, most of the science depicted, is just pure fantasy.

Some VOY fans have said that VOY is more like the original ST than TNG was because of its premise. One ship all alone in uncharted place, exploring strange new worlds. In premise, yes, it's similar. In execution, however, especially wrt the technobabble, and, to a lesser extent the GR perfect people edict (VOY didn't follow this rule as much as TNG did), VOY, imo, is far more like TNG. I regard it as TNG v2.

So, yeah, I really do think the technobabble was really out of control on VOY. Many times, it really was a story-telling crutch and I do think it sometimes hurt the story. I really still, to this day, don't understand why they relied on it so much in the ST spinoffs, especially TNG and VOY. It just seems largely unnecessary.

Oh, and I'd love someone to do a comparison of a tech-heavy original ST episode with a typical VOY episode. I'd wager the VOY episode would have a lot more technobabble in it by far.

You sound like a smart guy. The answer to your question on why they used Technobabble in TNG-VOY is simple. A complete LACK of creativity and talent in writers, directors and just about everyone involved in the whole production. Why bring in cretive people when you can write a story with a in 5 minutes using technobabble?

I think that was often the case. There was the B plot where the anomaly was ultimately solved via analysis and technobabble and A plot where they had a character arc. The problem is, with Berman's A/B formula (that he used on VOY and TNG), that the A plot would often be overwhelmed by the B plot.

I'm also not a fan of the "b" plot, that's another crutch for team of B&B, sure it can be OK at times but if you can't fill out 45-50minutes with one story, get someone who can

 

[Kio]

or more to the point,