Is it time to leave the Donner-verse behind?

[coolghoul]

No crystalline buildings -- no me. I'll keep my money and stay home.

So if the new Superman movie doesn't have crystalline buildings as part of the mythos, you'll refuse to see the movie.

Why do you like the crystalline structure?

And why do the crystalline structures have to be in the movie?

No offense intended, please. I'm puzzled why you find those so appealing...

 

[davejames]

While I'm perfectly okay with a new take and direction, I still don't get what all this complaining is about.

So Donner makes a couple Superman movies all the way back in 1978 and 80, and then freakin 26 years later Bryan Singer makes a quasi-sequel that pays respect to those movies with a handful of homages, all while only vaguely resembling them in style and tone... and suddenly the Donnerverse is "tired and overused"?!? Huh?

I just don't see it.

 

[coolghoul]

^ The other two Christopher Reeve movies were in the same (tenuous) continuity as the Donner movies.

And Singer's wants to make us assume that somehow 3 and 4 were swallowed up in some Crisis event (that happens off-screen and is never discussed ) and we pick up again from 2 and go into a different "reality"/"universe" etc. It does strike me as a tad weird. Kinda like asking Claremont to go back and restart telling his x-men stories from where he left off.... Oh wait....

 

[davejames]

^ The other two Christopher Reeve movies were in the same (tenuous) continuity as the Donner movies.

And Singer's wants to make us assume that somehow 3 and 4 were swallowed up in some Crisis event (that happens off-screen and is never discussed ) and we pick up again from 2 and go into a different "reality"/"universe" etc. It does strike me as a tad weird. Kinda like asking Claremont to go back and restart telling his x-men stories from where he left off.... Oh wait....

It never seemed weird to me. The events of the Reeve movies were only supposed to be a vague, hazy memory of the past, and not how things literally unfolded before SR.

All you really had to accept was that Superman and Lois were once in a relationship (not the precise one we saw in SII) and that they had once encountered a real estate-loving Lex Luthor.

Didn't seem that weird or complicated.

 

[QuasarVM]

No crystalline buildings -- no me. I'll keep my money and stay home.

So if the new Superman movie doesn't have crystalline buildings as part of the mythos, you'll refuse to see the movie.

Why do you like the crystalline structure?

And why do the crystalline structures have to be in the movie?

No offense intended, please. I'm puzzled why you find those so appealing...

I just dig it...

 

[DarKush]

I could probably jettison everything, but the John Williams theme. That's just too iconic for me. Though I don't mind keeping some of the other trappings of the Salkind-Donner years, such as the cold, crystalline nature of Krypton. I think it makes a nice contrast with Earth, and could help illustrate Superman's divided nature/loyalties, if ever they are called into question or put to the test in a new film.

I also wouldn't mind keeping Zod, Ursa, and Non in some capacity. Or the Phantom Zone. But I could go for a change to the feel and tone of the old films. I think Smallville, for the most part, has found a good way to pay respect to the old films but put their own twist on those films and on the Superman mythos period.

Though there are a lot of new fans who have never seen those films or that aren't all that fond of them, there's still a lot of fans who are fond of them. Why not give them a wink or nod here or there in a new film?

To me Superman Returns was disappointing because it didn't know how to reimagine the Salkind-Donner films for modern audiences. Not to mention just giving us a 21st century take on Superman, without even needing to tie it to the old films. SR just tried to copy the Salkind-Donner films, but without the heart or the wonder, and with a much more drab cast. And all the changes Singer did try to make just didn't work. I didn't need the overt religious stuff, nor Superman having a kid out of wedlock, or Superman leaving Earth after he promised the President he would never shirk his responsibilities again at the end of Superman 2, which SR was supposed to follow.

 

[Trekker4747]

Smallville has, indeed, mostly done good with the Donner-inspired additions to the mythos. The look of Kryptonian technology (crystals) from around Season 4 onward, the drops of the theme here and there, the mirror Phantom Zone and in the most recent episode the look of the council chamber. At the same time, Smallville has added bits of its own look to Krypton and Superman's roots. For as bad and silly as it can be sometimes, Smallville can still do some darn-good Superman.

 

[StarTrek1701]

F*** all of that. Just give me a Superman: Birthright movie and I am there!

 

[Joel_Kirk]

I don't mind a reboot...

Just don't do away with the John Williams theme.

 

[Christopher]

The John Williams theme is just a very good pastiche of the original Superman theme by Sammy Timberg (for the Fleischer cartoons) and the television theme by Leon Klatzkin. And it's just one of many Superman fanfares in the same tradition, including themes by Ron Jones (the 1988 Ruby-Spears cartoon), Kevin Kiner (the '88 Superboy series), Jay Gruska (Lois & Clark, one of my favorite Superman themes), Shirley Walker (Superman: TAS), and now Louis Febre (Smallville). Personally, I would've preferred it if Bryan Singer had let John Ottman compose his own version of a Superman theme -- continuing in the same style as all his predecessors but making his own fresh contribution to the tradition. To me, the iconic Superman musical sound is not any single piece of music, but the whole subgenre of themes, each one paying tribute to the previous ones going all the way back to Timberg.

Besides, Ottman didn't even use Williams's theme in an interesting way. Rather than exploring it, developing it, making variations on it and fitting it to the action, it was like he just hit the playback button on a Williams soundtrack CD every time Superman showed up. Even a good piece of music gets tedious when it's used that repetitively. There's such a thing as making an homage too slavish. Ken Thorne and Alexander Courage did a much better job developing Williams's theme in the movie sequels they scored.

 

[sidious618]

I'm one of the few people who thought the Donner movies were boring, cliched and terribly acted so, yeah, I'm ready for something new.

 

[QuasarVM]

The John Williams theme is just a very good pastiche of the original Superman theme by Sammy Timberg (for the Fleischer cartoons) and the television theme by Leon Klatzkin. And it's just one of many Superman fanfares in the same tradition, including themes by Ron Jones (the 1988 Ruby-Spears cartoon), Kevin Kiner (the '88 Superboy series), Jay Gruska (Lois & Clark, one of my favorite Superman themes), Shirley Walker (Superman: TAS), and now Louis Febre (Smallville).

None of those held a candle to Williams' work. And I say that with the utmost respect for Ron Jones's work. Aside from William's work for Superman there wouldn't be another great "Super" score until 1984 when Supergirl was released (Scored by Jerry Goldsmith) -- ironically, the best thing about that movie aside from Helen Slater as Supergirl.

Personally, I would've preferred it if Bryan Singer had let John Ottman compose his own version of a Superman theme -- continuing in the same style as all his predecessors but making his own fresh contribution to the tradition. To me, the iconic Superman musical sound is not any single piece of music, but the whole subgenre of themes, each one paying tribute to the previous ones going all the way back to Timberg.

Besides, Ottman didn't even use Williams's theme in an interesting way. Rather than exploring it, developing it, making variations on it and fitting it to the action, it was like he just hit the playback button on a Williams soundtrack CD every time Superman showed up. Even a good piece of music gets tedious when it's used that repetitively.

That I agree with.

There's such a thing as making an homage too slavish. Ken Thorne and Alexander Courage did a much better job developing Williams's theme in the movie sequels they scored.

Ugh...hated those. It sounded like they had an orchestra of 6 and I could easily recognize which original pieces they used to create the "new" compositions...they were worse than canned music; they sounded cheap. And with regard to The Quest For Peace -- that was not Alexander Courage's fault. I am sure limited budget had much to do with with...

I think they should keep the Williams Main Title and use use it occasionally as a leit motif...and no, they shouldn't be enslaved by it but at least have the rest of the new music be thematic and upbeat. Too much of Ottman's SR score sounded downbeat and uninspired.

 

[Nowhere Man]

I the y go Incredible Hulk on it, assume that the audiance knows who Superman is and where he came from. If you want have the opening credits sort of show the origin, but not in great detail. We don't have to leave the Donnerverse behind, but we don't have to acknowledge it either. Basicly ignore Superman Returns and have a nice opening sequence with Superman battling some one , anyone and have Braniac the main villian. Leave luthor out of it other than maybe seeing a Luthor Corp building. The only thing I would keep is the theme from John Williams, the opening lettering and the fortress. The fortress could be destroyed early on and then Supes could build the new one.

 

[QuasarVM]

I the y go Incredible Hulk on it, assume that the audiance knows who Superman is and where he came from. If you want have the opening credits sort of show the origin, but not in great detail. We don't have to leave the Donnerverse behind, but we don't have to acknowledge it either. Basicly ignore Superman Returns and have a nice opening sequence with Superman battling some one , anyone and have Braniac the main villian. Leave luthor out of it other than maybe seeing a Luthor Corp building. The only thing I would keep is the theme from John Williams, the opening lettering and the fortress. The fortress could be destroyed early on and then Supes could build the new one.

I like it! I hereby grant you as writer and director of...

SUPERMAN: THE MAN OF STEEL!

After kicking all the "get rid of everything" and "make Superman dark" people out of my office on their posteriors...and throwing a steaming bowl of Vulcan chicken plomeek soup at them for good measure!

I'll storyboard the thing...hire back John Williams -- and VOILA! You have the movie that will outgross Titanic at the box office.

Now to finish that script!

 

[Admiral_Young]

I've stated this before in previous Superman film threads. I was really excited when Bryan Singer was named the director of Superman Returns, disappointed that he left X-Men 3 to do it but I had faith thanks to his direction of the first two X films that he would do a good job. I also was anticipating his own take on Superman. An original Superman story. I wish Kevin Spacy had a chance to portray corperate mongul Lex Luthor and not chanel Gene Hackman almost perfectly. I think it's time to leave the Donnerverse behind as much as I enjoy his take on the mythos it's time to let someone else explore Superman and his universe.

 

[Trekker4747]

I like Singer, but I just don't think he was "right" for Superman. Superman isn't supposed to be dour, morose and emotional. He's supposed to be lively, bright, and energetic.

And that's not to say to take out any "seriousness" or emotion from it, but Superman all emotional over the loss of Lois, stalking her, and flying around all emo about losing her? That's not Superman.

 

[Saul]

Donner verse isn't the problem. Rehashing plot points from the Donner verse is. Superman Returns has Lex Luthor still banging on about the same plan "Lextopia". Selling land etc.
Also the Superman has a bastard child didn't sit right with anyone. Maybe even more so because Lois might not remember how that happened. Rather messy. Another problem was there being no new or big superpowered Villian. Kevin Spacy is great as Lex but we've had Lex Luthor as a baddie in 3 movies multiple TV series and animated shows. In an era of Spider-man Movies we need a strong action villian. Don't stick in too many homages to the previous comics or movie either since they detract from the important thing, the movie itself. All in all I liked "Superman Returns" but I know many who didn't and I can understand why that is so.

 

[Admiral_Young]

Yeah I agree with Saul about rehashing plots from the Donnerverse...as for Superman moaning over Lois. He did leave for five years. Clark was having a difficult time readjusting to life after he had gone and this was his way of trying to cope with it, except that he didn't really cope with it until the end of the movie. I don't have a real problem with the "stalking" scene. It was uncomortable but pretty understandable as well. Superman should have buried himself in his work instead of moping over Lois, he was acting human. I think it would have been a better story had he rejected his human side and gone into his Kryptonian self. That would have got Lois's attention that something was bothering him and she was the cause.

 

[gastrof]

With regards to the theme music, I have to say that the theme from SUPERMAN: THE MOVIE should stay in place for live action onscreen Superman stories. It's a part of the whole now. That simply IS the Superman themesong.

As for crystals and such, it's a little hard to do away with them now, since even the comics have incorporated the crystal look of the Fortress and some other aspects of Kryptonian tech.

Comic readers who go to a movie in a few years will EXPECT to see the crystaline Fortress.

What I'd suggest is that they just give us a Superman story, with all the characters already in their traditional positions.

Lois and Clark work at the Daily Planet, Perry is the boss and Jimmy is taking pictures with his camera. At moments of crisis Clark slips away and Superman appears on the scene to save the day.

Lex? I've gotten attached to the Big Businessman Secretly-Evil Lex we've had since the 80s in the comics. (I suspect that's the direction Singer might have brought the Donner-verse Lex in a RETURNS sequel, since the death of Lex's rich elderly wife left him wealthy and owning who knows what.) Even a neutral take on him might have worked. Don't explain if he's a wanted criminal or an evil billionaire. Just show him in an office plotting and ordering flunkies around.

And that's if we even need to include Lex at all.

I'd say just do a Superman story that could take place in ANY universe, start it with the Donner Superman music, show the costume with good red, blue, and yellow colors like Donner had it, and get on with a well written Superman adventure.

Don't have to plainly depart from the Donner-verse. Just don't feel obliged to say if you're in it or not. Just tell the story.

 

[Jetfire]

The only thing that really bothered me about SR was the kid and Lex Luthor's scheme. For the most part it is a good movie...just needed a villain that would have given more action. I still think if they went the SD route and had Lex unearth Doomsday it would have been a better movie. Even if they kept the kid, it would have been better with unearthed Doomsday instead of the Luthor real estate plan.

IMHO.