Is it safe to assume the Borg virus wouldnt have worked?

[sonak]

The quoted dialogue explanation (a partial one, mind you) of the invasive program has two aspects that would make it much more than a mere intellectual challenge to the Borg.

1) It was specifically "designed to overwhelm a computer's processing functions". It's not just something that makes you lock up into your study for weeks until you starve or get to your senses - it blows up your brain when you look at it.

2) It was supposed to do its fatal damage after "several hundred computational cycles". That's, what, half a nanosecond of computing? The Borg would of course have failsafes to stop them from getting stuck with an impossible task. But this isn't an impossible task - it's a frigging BOMB merely camouflaged as an impossible task, blowing up essentially immediately.

The problem with the attack wouldn't be that the Borg would have defenses against it. The problem would be that the attack would kill all the local Borg in a split second, leaving only a slim hope of propagating it further into the Collective.

Unless, of course, the attack would have a delay fuse. Perhaps the offensive part of the anomaly would only be triggered several days after insertion, not when the first segment of the Collective glanced at it. Since the attack was not attempted, we don't know how soon our heroes really expected it to work.

Timo Saloniemi

OK, but isn't it still just a fancier computer virus? If the Borg are taking this drone back into the collective, wouldn't they have anti-virus scanners for this sort of thing? Was there dialogue to the effect that the invasive program was going to appear hidden in some incredible way so the Borg couldn't detect it?

Again, look at the technological sophistication the Borg had shown up to "I, Borg." A huge civilization built on a collective computer network must have ridiculously good anti-virus defenses I would assume.

 

[Timo]

...wouldn't they have anti-virus scanners for this sort of thing?

Those only work if they know what the virus is like. An unknown "virus" (a soooo eighties term the TNG folks never erred into using in this context, BTW) may well sucker the scanner into its partner in corrupting the computer.

But as you say, the Borg must have pretty good defenses against unknown and unconventional cyberattacks, too, to have survived that long. Apparently, our heroes felt confident that, through analysing Hugh, they had properly understood the nature of those defenses, and had devised a trap that didn't appear to be an attack at all. Instead, it was pure bait - and the bait itself would choke the victim to death, without any need for a hook within.

We don't know if the heroes had it right. Usually, the assumptions our Starfleet heroes have made about the Borg have proven completely false: "only interested in technology", "reproduce by growing kids in drawers", "don't have leaders", "tried to assimilate Earth", "were unknown until the 2360s"... But it's at least possible that an attack that only became an attack when the Borg themselves started examining it would fare better than most tactics.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Anwar]

"reproduce by growing kids in drawers"

Well, this isn't exactly wrong, they just assumed this was the sole method of reproduction.

 

[Ghrakh]

It worked. 20 years of repeated viewing made it not work.

 

[Mr Silver]

It wouldn't have worked. I get the impression that Starfleet assumed the Borg were completely dedicated to the assimilation of technology and the desire to succeed. Since the Borg have been portrayed as efficiency concious and very much rational, we can assume that they would have realised it was a paradox and given up on it, since it was illogical to continue and a waste of resources.

Starfleet probably realised that the Borg were not as one-dimensional as they initially thought and began work on more practical defences such as the Defiant.

 

[Qew]

It seemed to me to be pretty clear that the virus DID indeed cripple the Borg, but it did not wipe them out. It would not be logical for all the major Borg nexus to be interlinked because that would be a major vulnerability. My guess is that there are major Borg nexus each with its own Borg queen, and each self sufficient. It would be easy since the Borg have such a "straight forward" goal.

I think however creating a virus that targets the biological side of the Borg would make sense. Still considering how many times the Borg have said that human bodies are so weak i wonder why they don't go completely AI like Data. A biological weapon would also seem to be more effective for the Borg since they rely so much on technology...and why Species 8472 were so effective against them.

 

[Vanyel]

It seemed to me to be pretty clear that the virus DID indeed cripple the Borg, but it did not wipe them out. It would not be logical for all the major Borg nexus to be interlinked because that would be a major vulnerability. My guess is that there are major Borg nexus each with its own Borg queen, and each self sufficient. It would be easy since the Borg have such a "straight forward" goal.

I think however creating a virus that targets the biological side of the Borg would make sense. Still considering how many times the Borg have said that human bodies are so weak i wonder why they don't go completely AI like Data. A biological weapon would also seem to be more effective for the Borg since they rely so much on technology...and why Species 8472 were so effective against them.

The virus was never used. It was Hugh's sense of individuality that infected the cube. Which actually makes even less sense since the Borg have been assimilating species for centuries. You would think that individuality thing would be the first thing being part of the collective would wipe out.

 

[Jefferies]

The reason I always thought the virus would have failed was from the fact that the Borg had so many enemies. If something as blatant as a computer virus (which this essentially was) could bring down the whole collective, surely a much more sophisticated adversary than the Federation would have succeeded with this approach a long time ago.

 

[Qew]

It seemed to me to be pretty clear that the virus DID indeed cripple the Borg, but it did not wipe them out. It would not be logical for all the major Borg nexus to be interlinked because that would be a major vulnerability. My guess is that there are major Borg nexus each with its own Borg queen, and each self sufficient. It would be easy since the Borg have such a "straight forward" goal.

I think however creating a virus that targets the biological side of the Borg would make sense. Still considering how many times the Borg have said that human bodies are so weak i wonder why they don't go completely AI like Data. A biological weapon would also seem to be more effective for the Borg since they rely so much on technology...and why Species 8472 were so effective against them.

The virus was never used. It was Hugh's sense of individuality that infected the cube. Which actually makes even less sense since the Borg have been assimilating species for centuries. You would think that individuality thing would be the first thing being part of the collective would wipe out.

I think you're misunderstanding me. By "virus" i mean the neurolytic pathogen that destroyed the Unimatrix. It could be argued that the pathogen served to cut the Borg Queen and the rest of the Borg out of the collective essentially spawning trillions of Hugh's...but we know cutting someone off from the Collective doesn't destroy them like the pathogen seemed to do to the Queen and the Unimatrix. So then we can further assume that the Queen herself was a crucial functioning tie keeping the Collective together...an obvious weakness that seems unlike the Borg to have, unless as i said there are many many self contained Unimatrix's each with their own Borg Queen.

 

[Start Wreck]

Which actually makes even less sense since the Borg have been assimilating species for centuries. You would think that individuality thing would be the first thing being part of the collective would wipe out.

The difference with Hugh was that he wasn't an individual who was assimilated into the Borg. He was a Borg drone who became individual again and then simply jacked back into the collective. It's a plot-convenient loophole.

Although it's difficult yo believe that no-one, in thousands of years of conflict with the Borg, had ever captured and 'released' a drone before. Then again, who says no-one had?!

 

[Vanyel]

It seemed to me to be pretty clear that the virus DID indeed cripple the Borg, but it did not wipe them out. It would not be logical for all the major Borg nexus to be interlinked because that would be a major vulnerability. My guess is that there are major Borg nexus each with its own Borg queen, and each self sufficient. It would be easy since the Borg have such a "straight forward" goal.

I think however creating a virus that targets the biological side of the Borg would make sense. Still considering how many times the Borg have said that human bodies are so weak i wonder why they don't go completely AI like Data. A biological weapon would also seem to be more effective for the Borg since they rely so much on technology...and why Species 8472 were so effective against them.

The virus was never used. It was Hugh's sense of individuality that infected the cube. Which actually makes even less sense since the Borg have been assimilating species for centuries. You would think that individuality thing would be the first thing being part of the collective would wipe out.

I think you're misunderstanding me. By "virus" i mean the neurolytic pathogen that destroyed the Unimatrix. It could be argued that the pathogen served to cut the Borg Queen and the rest of the Borg out of the collective essentially spawning trillions of Hugh's...but we know cutting someone off from the Collective doesn't destroy them like the pathogen seemed to do to the Queen and the Unimatrix. So then we can further assume that the Queen herself was a crucial functioning tie keeping the Collective together...an obvious weakness that seems unlike the Borg to have, unless as i said there are many many self contained Unimatrix's each with their own Borg Queen.

Yes, but the thread was about the virus that was going to be input into Hugh, not the Queen as done on Voyager.

The idea in Voyager actually made more sense than the one in TNG. Attack the personification of the Borg Collective you cripple it. At least until a new Queen is activated and takes control.

I my opinion it makes more sense to have 1 Queen as the personification of the Collective Consciousness. The Collective acts as one, so having one as it core makes sense. First Contact does make this a bit more plausible an idea. The Queen was there when Picard was assimilated in The Best of Both Worlds because she IS the Collective Consciousness.

To me it would also make sense that once contact with the Queen is lost a new one takes over shortly thereafter. Kinda of like a back up server, one goes down the other kicks in. It would also explain two usually ignored points of First Contact. The Queen of the TNG era goes back in time, that would leave the TNG era Borg Queen less unless another took her place. It would also explain why she couldn't just contact the Borg of 21st Century herself, instead of needing a beacon.

 

[Gary7]

Think of a PC with an operating system like Windows 3.1. Now, connect it to the Internet without any anti-virus programs. It would be mince meat to hackers and virus spreaders.

The Borg may never have been challenged by way of a software virus, up until their Federation encounters. As far as their depiction has been, the Borg collective is closed to just the Borg. So... knowing how the Borg operate, they don't have a defense against something they've not encountered before and adapt to deal with it.

It's one thing to adapt to a phaser frequency and shield against it the next time an impact is sustained. It's an entirely different matter if the first blow incurs a major defeat, as there's no time to adapt. A virus inserted into the Borg pathways would likely not be met with any challenges. If the Borg are that exposed, such a virus could do extensive damage. Depending upon how heuristic the virus is, it could "adapt" of its own accord and sidestep Borg attempts to block it. Think of how we deal with computer viruses today. Anti-virus programs are constantly adapting to new threats. BUT... if the computer gets thoroughly infected and blocks the computer's inability to obtain anti-virus updates, the computer is "screwed."

By this same logic, it is conceivable that the Borg could be wiped out with a sufficiently powerful virus program. But... the only real flaw with this idea is that it doesn't take into consideration possible Borg fail safe protocols. Just because the collective is linked, doesn't mean it will process all information obtained instantaneously. I could very well be that information is categorized in some fashion. The information will have a manifest, indexing the content. And if they see a trend whereby certain information being passed around is silencing Borg ships and crew, they could avoid reading the information content. They could also provide a "software lab" whereby the information could be examined without causing any harm. After seeing how it works, they could then devise protection.

I'm of the opinion that the virus would have caused a lot of damage, but not wipe out the Borg completely. After all, remember the individuality of Hugh being introduced affected localized Borg ships and crew. The collective is supposed to be interconnected throughout the galaxy, and yet... in Voyager the Borg appeared as their usual assimilation obsessed selves. So, the individuality contamination from Hugh didn't permeate the entire collective.

 

[Vanyel]

Think of a PC with an operating system like Windows 3.1. Now, connect it to the Internet without any anti-virus programs. It would be mince meat to hackers and virus spreaders.

The Borg may never have been challenged by way of a software virus, up until their Federation encounters. As far as their depiction has been, the Borg collective is closed to just the Borg. So... knowing how the Borg operate, they don't have a defense against something they've not encountered before and adapt to deal with it.

It's one thing to adapt to a phaser frequency and shield against it the next time an impact is sustained. It's an entirely different matter if the first blow incurs a major defeat, as there's no time to adapt. A virus inserted into the Borg pathways would likely not be met with any challenges. If the Borg are that exposed, such a virus could do extensive damage. Depending upon how heuristic the virus is, it could "adapt" of its own accord and sidestep Borg attempts to block it. Think of how we deal with computer viruses today. Anti-virus programs are constantly adapting to new threats. BUT... if the computer gets thoroughly infected and blocks the computer's inability to obtain anti-virus updates, the computer is "screwed."

By this same logic, it is conceivable that the Borg could be wiped out with a sufficiently powerful virus program. But... the only real flaw with this idea is that it doesn't take into consideration possible Borg fail safe protocols. Just because the collective is linked, doesn't mean it will process all information obtained instantaneously. I could very well be that information is categorized in some fashion. The information will have a manifest, indexing the content. And if they see a trend whereby certain information being passed around is silencing Borg ships and crew, they could avoid reading the information content. They could also provide a "software lab" whereby the information could be examined without causing any harm. After seeing how it works, they could then devise protection.

I'm of the opinion that the virus would have caused a lot of damage, but not wipe out the Borg completely. After all, remember the individuality of Hugh being introduced affected localized Borg ships and crew. The collective is supposed to be interconnected throughout the galaxy, and yet... in Voyager the Borg appeared as their usual assimilation obsessed selves. So, the individuality contamination from Hugh didn't permeate the entire collective.

If they have been around a thousand years some species must have tried something similar, it makes sense to try to infect computers with a virus of some kind.

 

[Keith1701]

If it worked at all, it would have just affected Hugh's one Cube the way his individuality did.

this is true of course........

 

[Gary7]

If they have been around a thousand years some species must have tried something similar, it makes sense to try to infect computers with a virus of some kind.

Well, Starfleet learns of the Borg pathways only by having secured Locutus, able to study him and see how he is interfacing with the collective. They needed Data to do this as well, physically hooked up to a special interface managed by Chief O'Brien. So, it was a combination of two rather incredibly rare circumstances that made it possible: having Data, a unique android with advanced capabilities, and Locutus, a special Borg convert that wasn't bent on destroying assimilating any being within range.

Of course, it could be possible that a Borg device might have been secured by an advanced race of beings and studied... to discover the Borg command pathways. But I think the possibility rather remote, given how the Borg don't leave any of their hardware behind (unless it's completely destroyed).

If it worked at all, it would have just affected Hugh's one Cube the way his individuality did.

this is true of course........

Regarding Hugh's individuality "infection", it may have been more obvious to the Borg and connections to the unimatrix were severed before that individuality could spread. It was not a "stealth" characteristic. Suddenly you start detecting drones that aren't passing on the same volume of thoughts they had before... it is spreading, so you shut down connections. In the case of the virus, it's more like "here is this intriguingly complex idea we just assimilated [process, process], have a look at it [process, process], and pass it on [process, process]", which could spread much further without warning of the consequences.