Is it Logical for Vulcans to be prejudice?

[Franklin]

Why should being prejudiced be considered illogical? It appears factually true that humans are inferior to Vulcans, in every respect that would matter to the Vulcan Science Academy at least - so trying to pretend to view humans as equals would be disingenuous and, if the lying did not serve some strategic goal, extremely illogical.

Of course, lying is often the logical thing to do, as it promotes social cohesion in addition to serving the interests of the individual. But Vulcans lying to other Vulcans that humans are equals does not serve any obvious purpose. And the myth that Vulcans don't lie would have gotten started somewhere.

Prejudice is just judice implemented without unnecessary delay. It is illogical only when it is literally prejudice, when it is formulated before the facts are known. But in practice, prejudice refers to the accumulation of experience instead. Although many are ready to substitute hearsay for experience, which again leads to illogic.

As for racism, its arguments tend to be factual and logical. Its implementation is the aspect that is not. But I can't see a downside for Vulcans implementing racism, either. Or an upside for them abstaining from it, rather.

Timo Saloniemi

The logic is based on a faulty premise. Therefore, the conclusion is false. Six billion Vulcans are superior to six billion humans? They're physically stronger on the whole. But where's the evidence that they are superior in other ways? What have they accomplished that humans have not? They're past is even as distastively violent as the human past. They were admittedly an even more violent race, and saved themselves only through conforming to a social norm.

Vulcans perpetuating the sterotype that humans are inferior only reinforces their culture. To them, humans are loud, obnoxious, hedonistic, and fly in the face of intellect. They are trivial. And humans are this way because they let their emotions lead. Vulcans selectively forget that emotion guided the paintings of Monet or symphonies of Mozart. Emotion can be a tool for good.

McCoy Prime once said to Spock Prime that he wouldn't know what to do with a genuinely warm feeling if he had one. For Vulcans, it's about suppression. For humans, it's about expression. The society that stresses suppression has to constantly rationalize why that is better. They do it to the point where they develop a superiority complex that defies eason. Can't have too many Vulcans growing up to be Sybok. It would upset the order of things.

Vulcans profess a singular ideology that must be followed. Humans don't. The human race succeeds by stressing individual freedoms and liberties over social order and logic. Both races stand as examples of how each can work. The odd thing is the idea of IDIC fits far better into 23rd century human society than it does Vulcan.

Spock Prime learned first-hand that his people were racist against humans. He grew to appreciate the power of instinct (Kirk) and emotion (McCoy) when used for a just cause. He began to realize it probably wasn't logical to believe in only one way: the Vulcan way.

 

[Greg Cox]

Spock Prime learned first-hand that his people were racist against humans. He grew to appreciate the power of instinct (Kirk) and emotion (McCoy) when used for a just cause. He began to realize it probably wasn't logical to believe in only one way: the Vulcan way.

Nicely put.

The Vulcans were never meant to be role models for humanity. They represented one extreme, with Kirk and humanity in the middle.

It's just that Nimoy made that extreme look so damn appealing!

 

[pookha]

Vulcans are the most arrogant, condescending, presumptuous, self-absorbed, pompous jackasses in the entire Star Trek universe.

very true.. even spock induldged in it in the series.

 

[C.E. Evans]

Vulcans are the most arrogant, condescending, presumptuous, self-absorbed, pompous jackasses in the entire Star Trek universe.

Second only to Humans. Bunch o' self-righteous primates...

 

[Franklin]

Vulcans are the most arrogant, condescending, presumptuous, self-absorbed, pompous jackasses in the entire Star Trek universe.

very true.. even spock induldged in it in the series.

And especially in TMP up until he "learned his lesson."

Actually, considering why they embraced logic, and that they hold onto the philosophy so dearly, almost zealously (as well as arrogantly), they must at heart be a very insecure people. They must feel if their society goes as far as allowing someone to crack a smile, it's back to destroying itself, again. Frankly, it can't be easy being a Vulcan.

Tiberius Maximus, why do I keep hearing Dr. McCoy's voice when I read your post?

 

[7thsealord]

Vulcans are the most arrogant, condescending, presumptuous, self-absorbed, pompous jackasses in the entire Star Trek universe.

very true.. even spock induldged in it in the series.

And especially in TMP up until he "learned his lesson."

Actually, considering why they embraced logic, and that they hold onto the philosophy so dearly, almost zealously (as well as arrogantly), they must at heart be a very insecure people. They must feel if their society goes as far as allowing someone to crack a smile, it's back to destroying itself, again. Frankly, it can't be easy being a Vulcan.

Tiberius Maximus, why do I keep hearing Dr. McCoy's voice when I read your post?

Withput their dogma of self-control, it is probable that Vulcans would be way w-a-y more chaotic and generally scary than we humans at our absolute worst.

There was a story in a recent alt-history anthology that bore this out ('Tears Of Eridanus', I think the story was called).

 

[UFO]

Vulcans are the most arrogant, condescending, presumptuous, self-absorbed, pompous jackasses in the entire Star Trek universe.

Second only to Humans. Bunch o' self-righteous primates...

Well, despite the Vulcans practicing their methods of emotional control and reasoning/logic for what, 1500 years(?) or so, and being on average our intellectual superiors (or was that just Spock?), we humans imagine that we are the only ones who can see their cultural/behavioural predicament?
　
I find it very difficult to believe that Vulcans would continue to act the way they have been portrayed for that length of time without coming to the same conclusions we have on this board. Such a realisation would make prejudice and racism intolerable attitudes for them, IMO.
　

The society that stresses suppression has to constantly rationalize why that is better. They do it to the point where they develop a superiority complex that defies reason. Can't have too many Vulcans growing up to be Sybok. It would upset the order of things.

Not why it’s better, why it’s necessary. Of course there is no need to rationalise that, they know why it’s necessary (for them). So I can't buy your reason for their being so blinkered, nor that they would remain so. Humans might of course, from time to time, but then we correct ourselves because we don’t really have reasons for such extreme behaviours. Vulcans do.
　
Well, supposedly there are ways for Vulcans to live without such strict internal discipline, but if these could have been applied to the whole species, I believe, over the time period in question, they would have been. I think we are importing human conventions into a society that should have been far more enlightened than us despite their issues.

Why should being prejudiced be considered illogical? It appears factually true that humans are inferior to Vulcans, ...

Well, if their attitudes are based on facts, they wouldn't be prejudices, by definition.

Withput their dogma of self-control, it is probable that Vulcans would be way w-a-y more chaotic and generally scary than we humans at our absolute worst.

Probably but I would argue that their self-control beliefs are not a dogma but a reasonable reaction to reality. Or course even such a belief, if held long enough, might become a dogma, but I degress.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Withput their dogma of self-control, it is probable that Vulcans would be way w-a-y more chaotic and generally scary than we humans at our absolute worst.

Most everything I've seen seems to support this. I remember reading once that at its most violent period, there was never more than 10% of Vulcan that was NOT at war. Without logic and emotional control, they would have destroyed themselves long ago.

As for humanity supposedly being as prejudiced: I hate to say this, but we have an excuse. We are an emotional people. All prejudice is derived from emotion, and so if humans allow themselves to feel it, then some prejudices are going to come out. Vulcans, OTOH, must be held to a higher standard. Prejudice and bigotry are inherently, absolutely, emotional. Any race that claims to be above emotion, must then be above these things.

 

[M'Sharak]

　
I find it very difficult to believe that Vulcans would continue to act the way they have been portrayed for that length of time without coming to the same conclusions we have on this board.

Why?

Would such behavior be completely unique? Can you think of no long-term analogues?

 

[Timo]

Six billion Vulcans are superior to six billion humans? They're physically stronger on the whole. But where's the evidence that they are superior in other ways?

Where's the evidence they are not?

Their Mozart could easily have been 47.2 times better than ours, driven by much hotter fires of desire, yet also with greater control for channeling the fires into art.

Also, the conclusion that Vulcans are superior to humans would be the correct one even if there were some areas where the roles were reversed, as long as there were more areas where they were not. We don't know if it's a close and ambiguous photo finish or a hands-down Vulcan victory, but the Vulcans appear convinced of the former. Their prejudice in that respect should be considered no less valid than "ours" (the Trek humans') - you know, the one about Vulcans being "lacking" because they aren't outwardly emotional.

Rather than representing the moderate middle, our humans may well be extremists - especially because they represent the current real-world norm or ideal. Vulcans may well exist for the purpose of demonstrating that our current ways are silly or even reprehensible, and that the happy medium is to be found somewhere closer to the norms represented by T'Pau.

Similarly, Klingons may well exist to show that humanity today is an undesirably bland bunch of losers who can't even make decent opera.

Prejudice and bigotry are inherently, absolutely, emotional.

Care to explain? Prejudice and bigotry today are just about the only parts of human behavior that are justified by reason and factual argumentation... Although naturally mostly because prejudiced and bigoted people tend to be on the defensive (or even offensive) while other human behavior goes unchallenged and unevaluated.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[UFO]

　
I find it very difficult to believe that Vulcans would continue to act the way they have been portrayed for that length of time without coming to the same conclusions we have on this board.

Why?

Would such behavior be completely unique? Can you think of no long-term analogues?

Not really. Not starting from our current level of "civilisation". Granted the future is unexplored territory but I think it reasonable to extrapolated from past human progress up to date. Moreover Vulcans seems to have had a considerable history of development prior to the adoption of their logical systems, even if that involved a lot of emotion caused violence. So once the logic kicked in there was a lot of material to reanalyse (assuming they hadn’t already arrived at correct conclusions but were just unable to implement them properly). I do think the Vulcan dedication to logic, hopefully including reasoning and the scientific method, would give them an immense advantage in self-criticism compared to us.

Further, since they have system for "conditioning" themselves logically, it would be a small addition to include anti-prejudice and anti-racism techniques once any tendency toward such behavour was identified.

So as I say, I don't find it plausible that a race with those skills and abilities would remain prejudiced and racist for 1500 years starting with our level of development. Look how far we have come in recent times alone. More to do of course.

Call me an optimist if you like.

 

[Timo]

You seem to assume that there would be some sort of an advantage to the removal of prejudice. But what could that advantage be?

Logic doesn't dictate that prejudice be removed. Logic is neutral on the subject, because logic isn't a single path. There can exist large or even infinite numbers of logical constructs, and the advantage of logic is in making it more efficient to pursue a single chosen path. And that path may well be one of prejudice.

Prejudice should appeal to a fanatically rational people, as it represents one of the most extreme applications of rational codification on everyday conduct. And the sort practiced by Vulcans does not appear to promote internal strife or otherwise put the Vulcans to a disadvantage. For all we know, despite logic as such being neutral on whether to go bigoted or not, Vulcans have figured out a further level of logic according to which bigotry gives them an advantage in the interstellar scheme of things; logical paths can be selected according to logic, after all, and that selection won't feature only a single correct choice, either.

Bigotry and a yearning for equality are two ways to hold a society together, among many more. Bigotry works well in homogeneous societies - and homogeneous societies may well work at least equally well as heterogeneous ones, and possibly better. We currently must favor equality because there's no hope of homogeneity, but Vulcan may have had a drastically different starting point.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Deckerd]

Care to explain? Prejudice and bigotry today are just about the only parts of human behavior that are justified by reason and factual argumentation... Although naturally mostly because prejudiced and bigoted people tend to be on the defensive (or even offensive) while other human behavior goes unchallenged and unevaluated.

I think you have that arse about tit as they say around here. From the OED (bolding mine).

1. prejudice, n. view full entry c1300
...Preconceived opinion not based on reason or actual experience; bias, partiality; (now) spec. unreasoned dislike, hostility, or antagonism towards, or discrimination against, a race, sex, or other class of people....

bigot, n. a. A person considered to adhere unreasonably or obstinately to a particular religious belief, practice, etc.

 

[Timo]

But those definitions make no sense, as they equate "irrational bias" with "bias". The dictionary is simply biased here - and irrationally at that!

Vulcans appear to display bigotry of the rational sort, whatever word we want to use for that. There is no evident element of irrationality there.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Deckerd]

You obviously don't understand the definitions, which is not the same as saying they make no sense. Most people here can understand them, I'm guessing.

 

[Franklin]

But those definitions make no sense, as they equate "irrational bias" with "bias". The dictionary is simply biased here - and irrationally at that!

Vulcans appear to display bigotry of the rational sort, whatever word we want to use for that. There is no evident element of irrationality there.

Timo Saloniemi

If you mean rational in the sense of "rational utility maximizer," I'll cut you some slack. [Godwin alert!] Were the Nazi's beliefs rational? [Godwin alert!] Not by many definitions. Was the way in which they pursued the goals created by those beliefs rational? I suppose one could say, yes. However, the premises and conclusions guiding their actions were flawed and horribly wrong, however rationally they were followed.

If it's rational within their mindset for Vulcans to believe they are superior to other races because it helps them maintain ideological purity and the goal of peace and cultural growth, that still doesn't make the belief correct.

That's part of the reason why the Vulcan culture is so insular. You can't have too many Spocks, or god forbid Syboks living outside Vulcan culture and creating cognitive dissonance across Vulcan society about the value of emotion over pure logic. It exposes how faulty the premise of the value of emotionless logic is, however rationally it's pursued and despite whatever good comes from it.

Is it rational for a Vulcan to be what we would call bigoted or even racist? For their goals, yes. But "rational" itself is a value-laden term.

 

[Deckerd]

Yeah except in the particular quote of Timo's I used, the word 'rational' didn't appear. Nor did 'logical'. He defined 'prejudice' and 'bigoted' diametrically opposite to their actual defnitions and then threw in a lot of 'rational'-based words in a fluttery attempt to discredit the OED.

 

[UFO]

Logic doesn't dictate that prejudice be removed. Logic is neutral on the subject, because logic isn't a single path.

As I’ve said, I tend to wrap logic up with reason and the scientific method, all of which Vulcans must be familiar with. Logic alone may have flaws but with the other two and when you factor in reduced emotion, prejudice (as per its standard definition anyway) should have the life expectancy of a small puddle in a desert at noon.

You see prejudice is very likely to have negative consequences because, as I pointed out previously, it is not based on facts but on misunderstanding, incomplete knowledge and emotional distortions etc. That’s why it has such a bad rap, in case you ever wondered.

So, is it logical (let alone reasonable or productive) to base a worldview on an attitude not centred in reality? I would have thought not. Worse, it not only limits Vulcan society, but also corrupts their relationships with other species. They should be able to realise that I believe.

 

[Timo]

He defined 'prejudice' and 'bigoted' diametrically opposite to their actual defnitions and then threw in a lot of 'rational'-based words in a fluttery attempt to discredit the OED.

Can't blame me. The original poster did that, by establishing that the Vulcan behavior in STXI is "prejudice" and "bigotry".

If that's the language to be used in this discussion, then that is the language used. You just have to go with the flow - it won't help a bit to insist that "soldier" is different from "murderer" if the words are already used interchangeably in the discussion, but it is still perfectly possible to argue that "murderer" is a honorable profession much supported by the society, or that "murder" should get a reduced share in the 2013 budget, or to compare the "murder tactics" of today's "national murder gangs" without undue passion.

So, is it logical (let alone reasonable or productive) to base a worldview on an attitude not centred in reality?

Probably not. But that wasn't the original issue. That one was "Is it logical to consider humans to be inferior to Vulcans, and not beat the bush around the issue?".

If the facts support the conviction, as they appear to do, then this is among the many logical things to do.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Sci]

The average Vulcan is stronger than the average human, smarter, has greater endurance, greater self-discipline, and will live about three times longer. They are reliably telepathic and have been at peace with their own kind for two thousand years.

False. ENT established quite clearly that Vulcan spent 1800 years rebuilding from a devastating nuclear war that threw them back to a pre-industrial level, and had only within the last few centuries become a major space power. This strongly implies that during much of that time, Vulcan was not unified and/or not at peace with their own kind.

Further, Romulans and Vulcans are the same species. (They have to be -- 2,000 years isn't enough time for speciation t occur.) Yet Vulcans and Romulans fought a century-long war at one point according to Q in "Death Wish," and Vulcans and Romulans have fought numerous times as part of Federation-Romulan conflicts.

Thinking they are superior to humans isn't prejudice, it is a simple acknowledgement of empirical fact.

Only if you have an arbitrary definition of "superior" that's rigged to favor populations with one trait rather than another. One could just as easily argue that Vulcans are "inferior" because their culture is built on emotional repression -- "This species can't even survive if it acts out its true nature, but must instead essentially traumatize all its members from childhood into a form of emotionless autism." Certainly one might argue that Vulcan lacks the kinds of cultural and political freedom one might expect from a civilized world, given their strong desire for conformity and tendency to exile those who don't subscribe to the ruling religion-philosophy of emotional suppression. But that would be just as biased an argument as the idea that they're "superior."

Vulcans are not superior -- they are different. Different, and equal.

Why should being prejudiced be considered illogical?

Because prejudices are based upon the false notion that all members of a population are uniform, and upon the false notion that the traits ascribed to one population or anther are superior or inferior.

It appears factually true that humans are inferior to Vulcans, in every respect that would matter to the Vulcan Science Academy at least

Bold added. That is a subjective evaluation -- which respect "matters" and which does not. It's a subjective evaluation made, frankly, with the intent of justifying pre-existing anti-Human emotions. This is about justifying a bigoted power structure, not about a fair or reasonable evaluation of an individual. Because, if it were, the leader of the Science Academy would have to concede that Vulcans and Humans are equal.

As for racism, its arguments tend to be factual and logical.

This is complete and utter bullshit.