Is it just me, or is Star Trek going the wrong way?

[fireproof78]

It's the biggest reason why less and less Star Trek appeals to me is the huge deal made out by fans of how progressive it is. It's like, no I don't need a fictional TV show to educate me on the idea of treating people equally. Such a thing in a franchise supposedly preferred by more intelligent people smacks of elitism.

 

[STEPhon IT]

It's the biggest reason why less and less Star Trek appeals to me is the huge deal made out by fans of how progressive it is. It's like, no I don't need a fictional TV show to educate me on the idea of treating people equally. Such a thing in a franchise supposedly preferred by more intelligent people smacks of elitism.

It was the reasons why I hated Season 3, I thought the episodes were on the nose narratives and I felt I was being lectured from scene to scene. What a grinding final season that was?

 

[cooleddie74]

Yeah, I already know Trek is historically more progressive than most other one-hour dramatic series. I don't need fans saying it every five or ten minutes as if the content of "Let That Be Your Last Battlefield(TOS)" or myriad other episodes and films throughout the history of the franchise have been a mystery until now and didn't contain forward-thinking themes. That's fine if reminding yourself every day makes you enjoy it that much more but anyone who's been watching Trek long enough doesn't need the constant drum banging of "TREK IS WOKE AND I'M GLAD."

 

[Nerys Myk]

Yeah, I already know Trek is historically more progressive than most other one-hour dramatic series.

I dunno. I think a lot it's contemporaries and predecessors were doing the same thing. Westerns, legal shows and even the occasional sitcom. Some even had better representation than Trek.

 

[fireproof78]

I dunno. I think a lot it's contemporaries and predecessors were doing the same thing. Westerns, legal shows and even the occasional sitcom. Some even had better representation than Trek.

Better, even.

 

[Jadeb]

I dunno. I think a lot it's contemporaries and predecessors were doing the same thing. Westerns, legal shows and even the occasional sitcom. Some even had better representation than Trek.

I think “a lot” is probably stretching it. Sure, you had Western morality tales where a white lead took on white baddies bullying a Chinese, Mexican or Native American character (often one-off guest stars, sometimes played by white people). And there were other progressive programs like I Spy. But TOS was pretty darn progressive in terms of representation for its time. Not only are Sulu and Uhura regulars, in positions of importance, but their depictions aren’t defined by their races (unlike even well-intentioned characters like Tonto). And this egalitarian view of the future extends to guest stars like William Marshall, whose race is entirely irrelevant to the fact that Daystrom is a genius in his field. The fact that Trek treats this type of thing so nonchalantly is exactly what makes it notable for its era. In retrospect, there’s way more power in that than in sledgehammer stuff like Let That Be Your Last Battlefield.

I don’t think we need to sell Trek short just because some fans want to overstate its influence. It certainly helped lead a dramatic change in American television that was taking place in the period.

 

[Nerys Myk]

I think “a lot” is probably stretching it. Sure, you had Western morality tales where a white lead took on white baddies bullying a Chinese, Mexican or Native American character (often one-off guest stars, sometimes played by white people).

Make the person of color an alien and you've got Star Trek.

And there were other progressive programs like I Spy. But TOS was pretty darn progressive in terms of representation for its time. Not only are Sulu and Uhura regulars, in positions of importance, but their depictions aren’t defined by their races (unlike even well-intentioned characters like Tonto).

"Regulars" might be a stretch. Their importance was often just flipping aa switch and reciting a line about phasers, helm or hailing frequencies. Shows like Hogan's Heroes, Mission Impossible and the aforementioned I Spy did better by their POC characters. None of those characters were defined by their race, either.
Tonto was a product of the previous generation.

I don’t think we need to sell Trek short just because some fans want to overstate its influence. It certainly helped lead a dramatic change in American television that was taking place in the period.

I think it was part of a general movement.

 

[Jadeb]

Make the person of color an alien and you've got Star Trek.

"Regulars" might be a stretch. Their importance was often just flipping aa switch and reciting a line about phasers, helm or hailing frequencies. Shows like Hogan's Heroes, Mission Impossible and the aforementioned I Spy did better by their POC characters. None of those characters were defined by their race, either.
Tonto was a product of the previous generation.

I think it was part of a general movement.

How many POC characters did those shows have? How many were women? “Had a black character” was progressive for the time, but Star Trek envisioned something more. And that’s what, three shows? That’s not what I’d call “a lot,” and it doesn’t change the fact that the vast majority of programs of the era were lily white.

You’re right that there was improving representation in the late ‘60s. (“Julia,” from 1968, is a good example, though largely forgotten.) But, again, Trek can be notable without being “the only” or even “the first.”

 

[The Wormhole]

Star Trek didn't really "envision" anything in that regard since the inclusion of POC characters was in fact a network mandate, the thinking being that including people of color in the show would encourage people of color to watch the show and buy products being advertised in the commercial breaks. The franchise has just been spending the past five decades patting itself on the back for doing something the Network Suits wanted them to do anyway.

 

[fireproof78]

Star Trek didn't really "envision" anything in that regard since the inclusion of POC characters was in fact a network mandate, the thinking being that including people of color in the show would encourage people of color to watch the show and buy products being advertised in the commercial breaks. The franchise has just been spending the past five decades patting itself on the back for doing something the Network Suits wanted them to do anyway.

I thought network suits were evil though?

 

[GNDN18]

Star Trek didn't really "envision" anything in that regard since the inclusion of POC characters was in fact a network mandate, the thinking being that including people of color in the show would encourage people of color to watch the show and buy products being advertised in the commercial breaks. The franchise has just been spending the past five decades patting itself on the back for doing something the Network Suits wanted them to do anyway.

In fairness, though, it was the early fans that saw something special about Trek, including its seeming inclusiveness and political awareness. There were no I Spy or Julia conventions in the years after those shows were cancelled. No outpouring of fan mail prevented East Side/West Side from being canceled.* Did Roddenberry in particular take advantage of this synergy to further his career as a barnstorming philosopher after his pilots kept getting rejected? Of course he did. And in the years since, have Trek’s corporate masters build on the sometimes naive love of the show in order to sell more stuff? By all means.

Whatever strange alchemy gave power to the phrase “Star Trek Lives!”, however symbiotic the relationship was between fandom and rights-holders, the fans have a share in that. Trek has done more good than harm for many people, myself included, whatever the cause of its continued viability.

*The fan mail drive was a fortuitous publicity stunt given that the third season was probably already ordered. It’s simply another example of the suits (whoever they were at the moment), using the genuine affection multitudes had for this particular commercial property for purposes that benefitted both producer and fan.

 

[Nerys Myk]

How many POC characters did those shows have? How many were women? “Had a black character” was progressive for the time, but Star Trek envisioned something more. And that’s what, three shows? That’s not what I’d call “a lot,” and it doesn’t change the fact that the vast majority of programs of the era were lily white.

My point is they did better with their characters than Star Trek did. They weren't just filling seats like Uhura and Sulu. Cosby was the co-lead in I Spy. Morris and Dixon were in the opening credits of their respective shows not listed under "featuring" at the close of the show.

My "a lot" was in reference to the exploration of things like racism, prejudice and other social justice themes not about the number of shows with POC as characters.

 

[The Old Mixer]

In the category of characters who weren't defined by the actor's race, my go-to example would be Sammy Davis Jr.'s guest appearances on The Rifleman, several years before Trek. He played two different renowned gunslingers, and--unrealistic as it was for the setting--the characters' skin color never came up.

 

[Jadeb]

Star Trek didn't really "envision" anything in that regard since the inclusion of POC characters was in fact a network mandate, the thinking being that including people of color in the show would encourage people of color to watch the show and buy products being advertised in the commercial breaks. The franchise has just been spending the past five decades patting itself on the back for doing something the Network Suits wanted them to do anyway.

I don’t really care how it got there. The bottom line is that Trek, in a time of tremendous racial and societal turmoil, gave us a show where people of all colors were equal, where Americans worked side-by-side with bitter enemies past (the Japanese) and present (the Russians), and where the coolest guy in the universe was mixed race and looked like Satan. There’s simply nothing else like that on ‘60s TV. People latched onto it for a reason.

 

[fireproof78]

People like it. I just don't think its better because it. Credit where credit is due.

 

[The Old Mixer]

I would never deny that the diversity displayed on Trek meant something and was inspirational in its time...it's just that decades of building up the myth of Trek Exceptionalism has resulted in it being given credit for lots of things that it didn't do first or best. It was part of the zeitgeist of its time, but it wasn't the trailblazer that it's been retroactively built up to have been.

 

[fireproof78]

I would never deny that the diversity displayed on Trek meant something and was inspirational in its time...it's just that decades of building up the myth of Trek Exceptionalism has resulted in it being given credit for lots of things that it didn't do first or best. It was part of the zeitgeist of its time, but it wasn't the trailblazer that it's been retroactively built up to have been.

Well put. I'm not denying Trek's influence but I won't buy the hype anymore either. That's not a slam on Trek all but a desire to know the full context of it.

 

[The Old Mixer]

Interestingly enough, it's regulars in the TOS forum who are the first to bust the myth.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Interestingly enough, it's regulars in the TOS forum who are the first to bust the myth.

Some of us were there, first run.

 

[The Old Mixer]

"It's not like you think it was, whippersnappers!" [shakes replica lirpa now being used as a cane]