Is "Firefly" overated or underated?

[Gothowitz]

And that his calling her one is a playful repartee they share. They're friends.

Not really.
Mal didn't start calling Inara "whore" until she told him that she favored Reunification [Out of Gas flashback]. Then when she said that was the last time he could use that term it became his standard insult to piss her off in return. I don't think he ever really lived that down.

 

[Flibble]

Tried to get into Firefly, but I just couldn't, but I liked the Serenity movie.

I think it has to do with Nathan Fillion's first appearance in Buffy, and he totally under whelmed me with his acting. Sorry.

 

[The Wormhole]

Mal murders a helpless prisoner for backtalk in the first episode.

Second episode, actually. Or third if you count the two-hour pilot as two episodes.

Oh, right. If you watched the show when it aired on Fox then yeah, I guess that would be the first episode.

 

[stj]

What I want to know is after the events of Serenity The Movie who does Mal end up with?

The primary aspect of Firefly is a hardy band of Confederate diehards take down the evil Union. But another, thematically unrelated aspect is a rather static take on The Judgment of Paris. Mal has to choose between Inara (Aphrodite, naturally,) Zoe (Hera mostly,) and River (Athena the wise virgin. Yes she's crazy but Wheedon is pretty clearly an irrationalist.) They're sort of archetypes rather than genuine human characters. When I said the characterization was pathetic, it wasn't contrarian pose, it was a sober statement of fact.

The character Mal is amazingly like Captain Hammer taken "seriously."

 

[DevilEyes]

Joss's attitude to prostitution is interesting, nearly all his shows seem to deal with it at some time or another.

Buffy doesn't, and in Angel it's only mentioned as much as it was Darla's profession back in 17th century. (Well, and there's that inference that Angel might have prostituted himself to the Furies, which is treated as a joke.)

Mal abuses Inara for her profession but frankly I think that's just jealousy on his part and possibly resentment that she represents wealth and authority. He likes the Madam of the Heart of Gold (actually one of my favourite eps) and she's a lady of the night but she's a more down to earth version, Pretty Woman rather than Belle du Jour.

Maybe, or maybe he has a problem with Inara's profession because, unlike whatshername from Heart of Gold, Inara doesn't just have sex with her clients, her job is to act like she loves them (or to love them?). The common prostitutes from Heart of Gold are probably a lot more honest from Mal's POV since they don't pretend to be emotionally involved with their clients. In addition, it's probably all the worse for Mal because the people that Inara is having relationships with as a part of her job are the rich and the powerful.

Tried to get into Firefly, but I just couldn't, but I liked the Serenity movie.

I think it has to do with Nathan Fillion's first appearance in Buffy, and he totally under whelmed me with his acting. Sorry.

Really? I thought he was really amazing and downright creepy.

 

[stonester1]

When I said the characterization was pathetic, it wasn't contrarian pose, it was a sober statement of my OPINION.

But yeah, it was also contrarian pose.

FIFY

 

[Vanyel]

From what I saw, overrated.

 

[saturn5]

What I want to know is after the events of Serenity The Movie who does Mal end up with?

The primary aspect of Firefly is a hardy band of Confederate diehards take down the evil Union. But another, thematically unrelated aspect is a rather static take on The Judgment of Paris. Mal has to choose between Inara (Aphrodite, naturally,) Zoe (Hera mostly,) and River (Athena the wise virgin. Yes she's crazy but Wheedon is pretty clearly an irrationalist.) They're sort of archetypes rather than genuine human characters. When I said the characterization was pathetic, it wasn't contrarian pose, it was a sober statement of fact.

The character Mal is amazingly like Captain Hammer taken "seriously."

What does that make Kaylee? Miranda to his Prospero? And does that make Jayne Caliban?

 

[saturn5]

Joss's attitude to prostitution is interesting, nearly all his shows seem to deal with it at some time or another.

Buffy doesn't, and in Angel it's only mentioned as much as it was Darla's profession back in 17th century. (Well, and there's that inference that Angel might have prostituted himself to the Furies, which is treated as a joke.)

Mal abuses Inara for her profession but frankly I think that's just jealousy on his part and possibly resentment that she represents wealth and authority. He likes the Madam of the Heart of Gold (actually one of my favourite eps) and she's a lady of the night but she's a more down to earth version, Pretty Woman rather than Belle du Jour.

Maybe, or maybe he has a problem with Inara's profession because, unlike whatshername from Heart of Gold, Inara doesn't just have sex with her clients, her job is to act like she loves them (or to love them?). The common prostitutes from Heart of Gold are probably a lot more honest from Mal's POV since they don't pretend to be emotionally involved with their clients. In addition, it's probably all the worse for Mal because the people that Inara is having relationships with as a part of her job are the rich and the powerful.

Tried to get into Firefly, but I just couldn't, but I liked the Serenity movie.

I think it has to do with Nathan Fillion's first appearance in Buffy, and he totally under whelmed me with his acting. Sorry.

Really? I thought he was really amazing and downright creepy.

What about Riley and his vampWhores? Plus we have numerous references and featuring of it in Angel, he goes to a brothel twice and has various other encounters, the original script for season 1 had Kate working as one in her undercover role.

 

[DevilEyes]

What about Riley and his vampWhores? Plus we have numerous references and featuring of it in Angel, he goes to a brothel twice and has various other encounters, the original script for season 1 had Kate working as one in her undercover role.

One episode where the theme is just a plot device to break up Riley and Buffy makes it a big theme that the show deals with? The only important reference I was referring to regarding AtS is Darla's background because she is a major character. When you have 100+ episodes of a a noir show set in L.A., it's hardly surprising if an episode or two mention a brothel. By those standards pretty much every show on TV has dealt with prostitution, except maybe for children's shows. I bet it would be hard to find a show that didn't. Some of them even have prostitution as a plot in every second episode, like all the Law and Order and CSI shows.

Off the top of my head, I'm trying to come up with a show I loved that never featured prostitution as a theme in any way, and I'm coming up short.

Veronica Mars? Yes.
Six Feet Under? Yes, very much so.
The Sopranos? Of course.
Frasier? Yep, that episode when Frasier accidentally got arrested with a woman who turned out to be a transvestite hooker.
Homicide: LOTS, The Wire, Prime Suspect, Cracker, every cop show ever - obviously.
Battlestar Galactica - yep, we all remember Black Market.
Star Trek - yes, in every of the shows at some point. http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Prostitution
Twin Peaks - obviously.
Deadwood - DUH.

Hm, I can't remember if there was ever any prostitution on Lost... do we have a winner?

 

[Forbin]

I think y'all are deeply overanalyzing the show, which was not supposed to be deep or analyzed.

 

[stj]

When I said the characterization was pathetic, it wasn't contrarian pose, it was a sober statement of my OPINION.

But yeah, it was also contrarian pose.

FIFY

Characterization must involve a recognizably human motivation, as revealed by the characters' actions. The Firefly characters simply do not have this. The fact that you cannot analyze a TV show is sad, but not my fault. The fact that you cannot understand when the difference between an opinion and the demonstration of a fact is worse than sad, it's irrational. And the fact that you cannot conceive anyone having the gall to think differently just shows how narrowminded you are. It's not contrarian pose to point out that the characters on Firefly don't make sense. That's just bad writing. All that's going on here is yet another Browncoat all pissed at being caught out at blindly justifying bad writing because they get off on Mal murdering a man in the first episode.

As for Kaylee as Miranda and Jayne as Prospero, the Judgment of Paris is a Greek myth about the origin of the Trojan War, not Shakespeare's The Tempest.

 

[saturn5]

When I said the characterization was pathetic, it wasn't contrarian pose, it was a sober statement of my OPINION.

But yeah, it was also contrarian pose.

FIFY

Characterization must involve a recognizably human motivation, as revealed by the characters' actions. The Firefly characters simply do not have this. The fact that you cannot analyze a TV show is sad, but not my fault. The fact that you cannot understand when the difference between an opinion and the demonstration of a fact is worse than sad, it's irrational. And the fact that you cannot conceive anyone having the gall to think differently just shows how narrowminded you are. It's not contrarian pose to point out that the characters on Firefly don't make sense. That's just bad writing. All that's going on here is yet another Browncoat all pissed at being caught out at blindly justifying bad writing because they get off on Mal murdering a man in the first episode.

As for Kaylee as Miranda and Jayne as Prospero, the Judgment of Paris is a Greek myth about the origin of the Trojan War, not Shakespeare's The Tempest.

Jayne as Caliban 'this thing of darkness I acknowledge mine', not Prospero

 

[saturn5]

What about Riley and his vampWhores? Plus we have numerous references and featuring of it in Angel, he goes to a brothel twice and has various other encounters, the original script for season 1 had Kate working as one in her undercover role.

One episode where the theme is just a plot device to break up Riley and Buffy makes it a big theme that the show deals with? The only important reference I was referring to regarding AtS is Darla's background because she is a major character. When you have 100+ episodes of a a noir show set in L.A., it's hardly surprising if an episode or two mention a brothel. By those standards pretty much every show on TV has dealt with prostitution, except maybe for children's shows. I bet it would be hard to find a show that didn't. Some of them even have prostitution as a plot in every second episode, like all the Law and Order and CSI shows.

Off the top of my head, I'm trying to come up with a show I loved that never featured prostitution as a theme in any way, and I'm coming up short.

Veronica Mars? Yes.
Six Feet Under? Yes, very much so.
The Sopranos? Of course.
Frasier? Yep, that episode when Frasier accidentally got arrested with a woman who turned out to be a transvestite hooker.
Homicide: LOTS, The Wire, Prime Suspect, Cracker, every cop show ever - obviously.
Battlestar Galactica - yep, we all remember Black Market.
Star Trek - yes, in every of the shows at some point. http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Prostitution
Twin Peaks - obviously.
Deadwood - DUH.

Hm, I can't remember if there was ever any prostitution on Lost... do we have a winner?

It's like every cop movie has to include a visit to a strip club (which Angel also ends up in). Just for once I would love 2 macho cops to have to attend a strip club in the line of duty and it would be a Chippendales style male strip club
Also, Dollhouse. Need I say more?

 

[Temis the Vorta]

I am getting sick to the back teeth of people saying something is 'over-rated' or 'under-rated' simply because they personally don't like it.

The question never makes any sense, since it all depends on what degree of "rating" you think the thing has to begin with, and who is doing the rating. Firefly is certainly not overrated by the general public, who has forgotten about it to the extent they were ever aware of it.

Here's my take: I would have watched more episodes. I know what I like and what I don't like. Other people's opinions matter only to the extent that they have Nielsens boxes.

On the other hand, Firefly had a very strong start (stronger than any other of Whedon's shows, and than any of the modern Trek shows, for instance) but if Firefly had lasted, for all we know, people might have also started complaining about the directions of the story that they didn't like, and the quality might have gotten more inconsistent...

I always keep that in mind when discussing Firefly. It's easy to be brilliant in a handful of episodes. Let's see you do that for seven years.

 

[stonester1]

Characterization must involve a recognizably human motivation, as revealed by the characters' actions. The Firefly characters simply do not have this. In my opinion. Yours may differ.

Fixed it for you. I'll avoid being too much of an ass in my generous correction of your weirdness and pomposity and not point out the generous body of work out there written doing just this sort of thing that you deny has been/can't be done.

Look, stj, it's one thing to have your opinions. And they can be as out there as you wish. But then when you try to claim they are fact, when they are in no way demonstrably so, then get on a high horse and explode forth with your jackassery towards those who see it differently, like only you have recieved the flame of Prometheus and the rest still dwell in darkness and THANK GOD YOU ARE HERE TO SHARE, only we are too buried in our Phillistinian ways to see this...

...dude...really...get over yourself.

 

[spot_loves_data]

Is Firefly overrated? Let me put it this way: I HATE Westerns with the fire of a thousand suns. I avoid them like the scourge they are.

I LOVE Firefly. It's a quick, fun, and imaginative show. It's not perfect but it's really original and a great, too-short lived piece of genre television.

Same here! I've hated westerns since I can remember. I even hate Kurosawa films for having the same feel. Somehow, I came to like the wild west settings in Firefly.

 

[StevenR]

Mal murders a helpless prisoner for backtalk in the first episode.

A hired thug working for a dangerous crime boss who just threatened to track down and kill Mal. This wasn't executing a weakling human, a Vulcan boy, and a woman just to prove a point.

 

[Lindley]

I think it has to do with Nathan Fillion's first appearance in Buffy, and he totally under whelmed me with his acting. Sorry.

He was in Firefly before Buffy, actually.

 

[Professor Zoom]

When I said the characterization was pathetic, it wasn't contrarian pose, it was a sober statement of my OPINION.

But yeah, it was also contrarian pose.

FIFY

Characterization must involve a recognizably human motivation, as revealed by the characters' actions. The Firefly characters simply do not have this. The fact that you cannot analyze a TV show is sad, but not my fault. The fact that you cannot understand when the difference between an opinion and the demonstration of a fact is worse than sad, it's irrational. And the fact that you cannot conceive anyone having the gall to think differently just shows how narrowminded you are. It's not contrarian pose to point out that the characters on Firefly don't make sense. That's just bad writing. All that's going on here is yet another Browncoat all pissed at being caught out at blindly justifying bad writing because they get off on Mal murdering a man in the first episode.

ROTFLMAO.

Opinion disguised as fact is still opinion. Which you are free to have, of course. But, it's still opinion.