Is "Firefly" overated or underated?

[DevilEyes]

I'm not sure it's a question of good or bad it's a question of freedom/anarchy versus restriction/good goverment, Simon, River and Inara all actually supporting the Alliance in the war, Wash and Jayne not really seeming to care much and Book...?

According to the Shepard's Tale comic, which reveals his backstory,

Spoiler: Shepard's Tale

he was a high-ranking Alliance operative who was dismissed after a disastrous battle... but in fact, he was undercover all the time, working for the Independents.

The comic is great, I advise anyone who hasn't read it to not open the spoiler and read the comic instead. It would have made an awesome flashback/non-linear episode of the show.

I like Firefly but i must admit I don't understand the slavish fan devotion towards it, I think it's very much the least of any of Joss' shows, Dollhouse is far superior

I think the two shows are of about the same quality. Which would mean that, among Whedon fans, Dollhouse is underrated and Firefly overrated. Both shows suffered from being cancelled too soon; Dollhouse had the time to wrap up the most important storylines, in mostly satisfactory way, but that meant that some characters' stories fell to the wayside (Claire, Dominic) and some things were rushed, with entire stories happening off-screen between the penultimate episode and Epitaph Two (Alpha's journey from villain to hero, Echo/Paul relationship). Firefly, on the other hand, didn't even get to develop a story in its only season, though Serenity, the movie, did have an epic story (and is probably what the next seasons of the show would have been about).

For the story, I'd go for Dollhouse; Firefly's strength is in having a lot of likeable characters, which is probably why people get attached to it so much. Dollhouse's problem is that most characters were either 1) dolls, which meant that for a long time they were barely characters in the usual sense of the word, changing their personalities every weak (which later does change to an extent, especially with Echo), or 2) people running the Dollhouse, i.e. morally corrupt people engaged in a form of human trafficking/slavery/violation of a particularly troubling kind. But that wasn't a failure of the show, it was simply the consequence of its premise. However, as the show went on, I thought they did a good job of fleshing out both sets of characters and making them more relatable.

On Firefly, all the characters were interesting and likeable in different ways, and there were no non-entities of the Harry Kim/Travis Mayweather type. However, since it lasted just one season, we didn't get them see develop, the way we did with characters on BtVS and AtS, which is why they don't match the Buffyverse characters in complexity. But they might have - who knows.

On the other hand, Firefly had a very strong start (stronger than any other of Whedon's shows, and than any of the modern Trek shows, for instance) but if Firefly had lasted, for all we know, people might have also started complaining about the directions of the story that they didn't like, and the quality might have gotten more inconsistent... and then maybe people would be saying "oh season 1 was so awesome, if only Firefly had ended then I'd consider it one of the best SF shows of all time, but then they did _____ in season 3, and ruined everything in season 4..." like many say about BSG, for instance. Or maybe there would be people who would say that seasons 5 and 6 were the best, while others would say that they don't recognize anything after season 3.

We'll never know.

 

[David cgc]

I'm not sure it's a question of good or bad it's a question of freedom/anarchy versus restriction/good goverment, Simon, River and Inara all actually supporting the Alliance in the war, Wash and Jayne not really seeming to care much and Book...?

According to the Shepard's Tale comic, which reveals his backstory,

Spoiler: Shepard's Tale

he was a high-ranking Alliance operative who was dismissed after a disastrous battle... but in fact, he was undercover all the time, working for the Independents.

The comic is great, I advise anyone who hasn't read it to not open the spoiler and read the comic instead. It would have made an awesome flashback/non-linear episode of the show.

It also quietly retconned the frame of time between "Serenity" and "Serenity" from eight months to four years, which sure solved all of my problems with the ever-increasing number of series-era stories in the comics.

 

[Captaindemotion]

I'm not sure it's a question of good or bad it's a question of freedom/anarchy versus restriction/good goverment, Simon, River and Inara all actually supporting the Alliance in the war, Wash and Jayne not really seeming to care much and Book...?

According to the Shepard's Tale comic, which reveals his backstory,

Spoiler: Shepard's Tale

he was a high-ranking Alliance operative who was dismissed after a disastrous battle... but in fact, he was undercover all the time, working for the Independents.

The comic is great, I advise anyone who hasn't read it to not open the spoiler and read the comic instead. It would have made an awesome flashback/non-linear episode of the show.

I like Firefly but i must admit I don't understand the slavish fan devotion towards it, I think it's very much the least of any of Joss' shows, Dollhouse is far superior

I think the two shows are of about the same quality. Which would mean that, among Whedon fans, Dollhouse is underrated and Firefly overrated. Both shows suffered from being cancelled too soon; Dollhouse had the time to wrap up the most important storylines, in mostly satisfactory way, but that meant that some characters' stories fell to the wayside (Claire, Dominic) and some things were rushed, with entire stories happening off-screen between the penultimate episode and Epitaph Two (Alpha's journey from villain to hero, Echo/Paul relationship). Firefly, on the other hand, didn't even get to develop a story in its only season, though Serenity, the movie, did have an epic story (and is probably what the next seasons of the show would have been about).

For the story, I'd go for Dollhouse; Firefly's strength is in having a lot of likeable characters, which is probably why people get attached to it so much. Dollhouse's problem is that most characters were either 1) dolls, which meant that for a long time they were barely characters in the usual sense of the word, changing their personalities every weak (which later does change to an extent, especially with Echo), or 2) people running the Dollhouse, i.e. morally corrupt people engaged in a form of human trafficking/slavery/violation of a particularly troubling kind. But that wasn't a failure of the show, it was simply the consequence of its premise. However, as the show went on, I thought they did a good job of fleshing out both sets of characters and making them more relatable.

On Firefly, all the characters were interesting and likeable in different ways, and there were no non-entities of the Harry Kim/Travis Mayweather type. However, since it lasted just one season, we didn't get them see develop, the way we did with characters on BtVS and AtS, which is why they don't match the Buffyverse characters in complexity. But they might have - who knows.

On the other hand, Firefly had a very strong start (stronger than any other of Whedon's shows, and than any of the modern Trek shows, for instance) but if Firefly had lasted, for all we know, people might have also started complaining about the directions of the story that they didn't like, and the quality might have gotten more inconsistent... and then maybe people would be saying "oh season 1 was so awesome, if only Firefly had ended then I'd consider it one of the best SF shows of all time, but then they did _____ in season 3, and ruined everything in season 4..." like many say about BSG, for instance. Or maybe there would be people who would say that seasons 5 and 6 were the best, while others would say that they don't recognize anything after season 3.

We'll never know.

What an excellent, well thought out post.

 

[Deckerd]

Is it overrated or underrated? No. Firefly's biggest detracting quality is the near-fanaticism some of its fans display in proclaiming their everlasting adulation and devotion to it. Otherwise, it's another well-made Joss Whedon series that some like, and some don't.

How can fans detract from the quality of a show?

 

[Forbin]

Is it overrated or underrated? No. Firefly's biggest detracting quality is the near-fanaticism some of its fans display in proclaiming their everlasting adulation and devotion to it. Otherwise, it's another well-made Joss Whedon series that some like, and some don't.

How can fans detract from the quality of a show?

He doesn't mean they detract from the quality of the show itself, he means they are an associated aspect of the show that he finds annoying, thus detracting from his enjoyment of the show's phenomenon.

 

[Similitude]

Forgot to post once I finished this and Serenity a month or two back.

LOVED this. One of my favorite shows ever now.

 

[stonester1]

I found it a somewhat uneven show. Personally, I think the closer Firefly hewed to a standard space opera rather than a western in SF trappings, the better it was. Serenity 10, Ariel 10, that one where they fight for the rights of space hookers 1. Of course a Firefly "1" is still pretty decent.

I wouldn't call it uneven at all, though I agree that "Heart of Gold" was a pretty weak episode. It was basically a reworked A-Team script.

However, nearly every other episode was a gem, or had parts that make up for the bad. Even "Safe", one of the least liked episodes had the Big Damn Hero scene, which makes the episode a must see!

When your "weakest" ep is "Heart of Gold" (which seems to largely be the consensus among Firefly devotes', you are doing something right.

FF is simply wonderful.

 

[FPAlpha]

Anyone care to speculate on such bizarre lapses in characterization as to why Inara loves Mal, why Zoe insists on staying with Mal, why Mal doesn't go home, why Kaylee doesn't care whether she makes an honest living?

As to Inara.. as much as he annoys her and disrespects her profession she knows him as a man of honor and high standards for himself given the world he lives in. She knows that in his world it's either shoot first or don't shoot at all but as he said to Simon when he shoots the other one will be armed and able to fight back making it an honest fight. He is insanely protective of his crew which he regards as his family and would do anything to keep them safe and he's easy on the eyes on top of that.

How can any woman not like and even love such a guy?

Zoey has been with him through the worst time of their lives and that created a bond.. she knows him probably better than anyone else and she thinks it's worth following him so that's why she stuck with him.

Kaylee just wants work and she said basically that where she lived there was hardly any work and Mal promised her a far more exciting life, regular work and pay.. if that involves crime now and then so be it but she also knows that there are lines Mal won't cross such as murder (shooting bad guys who try to kill you doesn't count as murder in that world i think) or dealing in slavery so she's fine taking money from the rich and keeping it for themselves.

 

[Lookingglassman]

I have never seen Firefly, but I have seen Serenity a bunch of times and loved it.

 

[Nerd unRage]

Serenity is a really good movie not just as a way to offically say good-bye with a hope that the series might have been revived kind of way. The series is worth it especially if you enjoyed the movie.

 

[stonester1]

Anyone care to speculate on such bizarre lapses in characterization as to why Inara loves Mal, why Zoe insists on staying with Mal, why Mal doesn't go home, why Kaylee doesn't care whether she makes an honest living?

As to Inara.. as much as he annoys her and disrespects her profession she knows him as a man of honor and high standards for himself given the world he lives in. She knows that in his world it's either shoot first or don't shoot at all but as he said to Simon when he shoots the other one will be armed and able to fight back making it an honest fight. He is insanely protective of his crew which he regards as his family and would do anything to keep them safe and he's easy on the eyes on top of that.

How can any woman not like and even love such a guy?

Zoey has been with him through the worst time of their lives and that created a bond.. she knows him probably better than anyone else and she thinks it's worth following him so that's why she stuck with him.

Kaylee just wants work and she said basically that where she lived there was hardly any work and Mal promised her a far more exciting life, regular work and pay.. if that involves crime now and then so be it but she also knows that there are lines Mal won't cross such as murder (shooting bad guys who try to kill you doesn't count as murder in that world i think) or dealing in slavery so she's fine taking money from the rich and keeping it for themselves.

All of the above is correct. But I have to think, though, if you have to explain any of the above to anyone...they simply haven't paid attention to the show.

 

[Capt_Pickirk]

Firefly is neither over-rated nor under-rated. Some people like it, some people don't.

I am getting sick to the back teeth of people saying something is 'over-rated' or 'under-rated' simply because they personally don't like it.

I don't like eggs, but that doesn't mean I think they're over-rated. I just don't like them. It's a matter of personal taste.

If you don't like something, just say you don't like it. You can express why you don't like it, but don't say it's because it's over/under-rated.
Grrrr....

 

[nightwind1]

Watching the series for the first time. Just saw Out of Gas, loved it. Really loving the series now. Savoring watching them for the first time. Christina Hendricks is a goddess amongst humans.

Ooohh... you're lucky, being able to see it for the first time. Come to the Brown side, we have strawberries...

 

[nightwind1]

Forgot to post once I finished this and Serenity a month or two back.

LOVED this. One of my favorite shows ever now.

Here's your Brown coat. Wear it with pride.

 

[stj]

Anyone care to speculate on such bizarre lapses in characterization as to why Inara loves Mal, why Zoe insists on staying with Mal, why Mal doesn't go home, why Kaylee doesn't care whether she makes an honest living?

Why is it bizarre for Inara to love Mal? Opposites attract, maybe?

Zoe is Mal's loyal right hand woman and close-as-skin war buddy. She will always be at his side and with him wherever he goes.

Mal's a grown man with his own life to live and money to make. His ship is his business so he lives there.

There were no job prospects for Kaylee at her home and she loved engines. If it hadn't been for Mal's offer she wouldn't be making any living.

This is all being resurrected for some reason. Anyhow, Mal calls Inara a whore. This is not opposites, it's a man abusing a woman, and the woman loves it. Spare me.

War vets have close bonds but they don't follow each other around after the service. This is a woman completely devoted to a man.

Mal got the ship so that he could run around without making terms with the Alliance, as a way of not surrendering. As the song says I think, if you keep flying you stay free. The question remains, what's so awful now about the family plantation that he can't even abide making a home there. (And ex post rationalization from "franchise lore" doesn't cut it either.)

Mal murders a helpless prisoner for backtalk in the first episode. Kaylee doesn't have to keep this job, she can look for another. She just likes Mal, I suppose for the same reason the Firefly fans do, for being a murderer. But this is not a nice person at all, yet Kaylee is supposed to be nice.

Characterization on Firefly is as pathetic. It's as phony as the system the series is set in.

 

[Set Harth]

Anyhow, Mal calls Inara a whore. This is not opposites, it's a man abusing a woman, and the woman loves it. Spare me.

You may be forgetting that she really is a whore.

 

[Forbin]

And that his calling her one is a playful repartee they share. They're friends.

 

[saturn5]

Anyhow, Mal calls Inara a whore. This is not opposites, it's a man abusing a woman, and the woman loves it. Spare me.

You may be forgetting that she really is a whore.

Tis a pity....?

Joss's attitude to prostitution is interesting, nearly all his shows seem to deal with it at some time or another. Mal abuses Inara for her profession but frankly I think that's just jealousy on his part and possibly resentment that she represents wealth and authority. He likes the Madam of the Heart of Gold (actually one of my favourite eps) and she's a lady of the night but she's a more down to earth version, Pretty Woman rather than Belle du Jour. Ironically in the Fireflyverse it's Inara who has the respectable profession
As for her attraction to him, maybe she likes that fact that he DOESN'T fawn all over her as everyone else does? Or maybe just straight girls are weird?
As for Kaylee she'd have been ok no matter what, she could have ended up working at the Heart of Gold or joined the Alliance as an engineer or something. They do give a very father/daughter vibe, Mal is always wanting to protect her from everything.
What I want to know is after the events of Serenity The Movie who does Mal end up with?

 

[Set Harth]

Is Firefly overated or underated? Neither.

Because "overated" and "underated" are not words.

 

[Enterprise is Great]

Neither. It's perfectly rated.