Is Enterprise the most US-centric Trek series?

[Sci]

I appreciate representative casting, when the actors are good and their roles well written, but I don't think it "harms" anybody when a series neglects diverse casting unintentionally.

I have a friend who is black, and is a huge fan of geek media -- things like Star Trek, Star Wars, superheroes, etc. And one of the things he has often shared with me is how hurtful it was to only rarely see black heroes growing up, and to almost never see them depicted as the main characters. And he has shared how meaningful it has been for his daughter to grow up in an era where she gets to see a main black hero in Blank Panther, or a main female hero in Wonder Woman. When I went to see Wonder Woman with a female friend of mine, I noticed that she was crying during the "No Man's Land" action sequence. She told me she was crying because it was the first time she had seen "herself" depicted as the protagonist in a way that was just straightforward heroic (rather than, say, sexually exploitative).

This is not a personal attack, but you are just plain wrong when you say lack of representation does not harm people from marginalized communities. It creates lifelong emotional pain.

 

[Sim]

I have a friend who is black, and is a huge fan of geek media -- things like Star Trek, Star Wars, superheroes, etc. And one of the things he has often shared with me is how hurtful it was to only rarely see black heroes growing up, and to almost never see them depicted as the main characters. And he has shared how meaningful it has been for his daughter to grow up in an era where she gets to see a main black hero in Blank Panther, or a main female hero in Wonder Woman. When I went to see Wonder Woman with a female friend of mine, I noticed that she was crying during the "No Man's Land" action sequence. She told me she was crying because it was the first time she had seen "herself" depicted as the protagonist in a way that was just straightforward heroic (rather than, say, sexually exploitative).

This is not a personal attack, but you are just plain wrong when you say lack of representation does not harm people from marginalized communities. It creates lifelong emotional pain.

Those are good points. And yes, I agree that representation is generally good. However, a given tv show doesn't have to be for everyone. Doesn't mean such a show is insulting to anyone, when it's telling a story about people you cannot relate to, for whatever reason.

As good as diverse casting is, I feel too much focus on skin color and sexual orientation rather divides people, than it unites them. Because, when you constantly reduce people to their skin color and sexual orientation, with the best intentions, does it really take you wonder when the straight white male mainstream might feel encouraged to do the same -- with very ugly results?

I constantly see this in all kinds of ugly online "debates", and I don't think it's just one of both sides that's divisive, rather than working for unity. Prejudices that stand in the way of unity exist on all sides. Rather than constantly judging shows or films by the skin color and sexual orientation of their casts, either in order to applaud or to trash them, I'd appreciate it if there were more messages in favor of unity -- the message in films and shows that skin color or sexual orientation don't define us as persons, or at least shouldn't do that. This message is more important, imo, than mere formal representation. (Star Trek usually does that well, as all kinds of "outsiders" are depicted as valued and competent team partners along more "mainstream" characters.)

But maybe I'm wrong and lacking the imagination how the situation in the USA truly is, as I'm not American. Perhaps your off-screen reality is much different than it might appear, judging from online talk and tv shows. So ... your argument maybe is fair enough.

 

[Shaka Zulu]

When I went to see Wonder Woman with a female friend of mine, I noticed that she was crying during the "No Man's Land" action sequence. She told me she was crying because it was the first time she had seen "herself" depicted as the protagonist in a way that was just straightforward heroic (rather than, say, sexually exploitative).

This is not a personal attack, but you are just plain wrong when you say lack of representation does not harm people from marginalized communities. It creates lifelong emotional pain.

Pardon me, but where has this lady been living, on Mars? The last three decades alone have seen a metric fuckton of strong female characters in sci-fi and action based media (video games, movies, TV, novels, and comic books); I don't know how she can say that and not bother to do any research to see how many have come out in all of that time, There are too many to list, so I won't mention them all, but again, if she does her research on the Internet, she'll find them (many of them depicted as being straightforward heroic without any sexuality too.)

As to the topic at hand, I (as an Afro-Canadian male) do support diverse casting, but not to excess (I have no wish to see black people in a historical setting being with whites when they wouldn't have been in real life, or any other misrepresentation of a past era [The Green Book was refreshing to see, because it showed what really happened back in the past]). The people who want more diversity need to truly do something about it (perhaps by writing a film script and then getting it sold) rather than doing what they're usually doing.

 

[Jinn]

I don't know how she can say that and not bother to do any research to see how many have come out in all of that time, There are too many to list, so I won't mention them all, but again, if she does her research on the Internet, she'll find them (many of them depicted as being straightforward heroic without any sexuality too.)

How dare she not do research before having an emotional reaction while watching a movie?

 

[Ragitsu]

It starts with an inch...

 

[Sci]

Pardon me, but where has this lady been living, on Mars?

You are not pardoned. Apologize for insulting my friend or go away.

The last three decades alone have seen a metric fuckton of strong female characters in sci-fi and action based media

And Wonder Woman was the first time that applied to a major superhero film where a woman was the single protagonist and was not sexually objectified a la Halle Berry in Catwoman.

 

[Sci]

It starts with an inch...

What starts with an inch?

 

[Shaka Zulu]

You are not pardoned. Apologize for insulting my friend or go away.

A female friend of mine was insulted for expressing how she felt about a female being the Doctor on Doctor Who a while back on this BBS; in this instance, I'd say that turnaround is fair play.

And Wonder Woman was the first time that applied to a major superhero film where a woman was the single protagonist and was not sexually objectified a la Halle Berry in Catwoman.

Forgetting how Wonder Woman was on the live action 1976-1979 TV show for quite a few seasons, not to forget how she was on Justice League (that is, not objectified) or how Supergirl was on the Supergirl series (again, not objectified even though she was wearing a skirt before she got the pants) or how Rey's been in the recent Star Wars movies, to say nothing of how the women have been on Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. As I said, this person's been living under a rock.

 

[Sci]

A female friend of mine was insulted for expressing how she felt about a female being the Doctor on Doctor Who a while back on this BBS;

I don't even know what you're talking about here.

in this instance, I'd say that turnaround is fair play.

No, it's not. Nothing about your decision to insult my friend for daring to have an emotional reaction to a movie that you didn't approve of is fair play.

Forgetting how Wonder Woman was on the live action 1976-1979 TV show for quite a few seasons,

A low-budget television program from the 1970s that sexually objectified the main character on a regular basis is absolutely not the same thing as a major superhero film where she is the protagonist and not objectified.

not to forget how she was on Justice League (that is, not objectified)

The film? Didn't come out until after Wonder Woman. The animated TV show? Was an animated TV show.

or how Supergirl was on the Supergirl series

Not the same thing.

how Rey's been in the recent Star Wars movies,

This comes the closest, but it is, again, not the same thing -- Ray is a co-protagonist of The Force Awakens with Finn and she spends a significant portion of The Force Awakens incapacitated.

to say nothing of how the women have been on Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.

Again, absolutely not the same thing.

As I said, this person's been living under a rock.

And now you insult my friend again? What the fuck is wrong with you?

To be very clear: The experience of seeing a woman as the protagonist in a major, big-budget, superhero action film not sexually objectified or filmed with a male gaze is a very different thing from a television program or an ensemble piece like The Force Awakens. It speaks to people's emotions differently. Get over it and stop being an asshole to my friend.

 

[Hopeful Romantic]

As I said, this person's been living under a rock.

Stop it, @Shaka Zulu. There is a way to express an alternate opinion without denigration. Reach way down and give it a try.

And now you insult my friend again? What the fuck is wrong with you?

To be very clear: The experience of seeing a woman as the protagonist in a major, big-budget, superhero action film not sexually objectified or filmed with a male gaze is a very different thing from a television program or an ensemble piece like The Force Awakens. It speaks to people's emotions differently. Get over it and stop being an asshole to my friend.

Emphasis mine.

I was going to say the same to you as I told Shaka Zulu, @Sci, but you already went too far. You have a warning for flaming. Comments to PM.

You both made good points until you started throwing rocks. Please be civil. Thank you.

 

[Ragitsu]

Profanity rarely brings out the best in people.

 

[Ragitsu]

Pan-fried catfish with cornbread and "greens": the most US-centric dish in a Star Trek series?

 

[Anna Yolei]

Those are good points. And yes, I agree that representation is generally good. However, a given tv show doesn't have to be for everyone. Doesn't mean such a show is insulting to anyone, when it's telling a story about people you cannot relate to, for whatever reason.

It doesn't, no.

But speaking as a black woman, I have never, either online or off, met anyone of color who has ever said they couldn't relate to a character because they were white.

As good as diverse casting is, I feel too much focus on skin color and sexual orientation rather divides people, than it unites them. Because, when you constantly reduce people to their skin color and sexual orientation, with the best intentions, does it really take you wonder when the straight white male mainstream might feel encouraged to do the same -- with very ugly results?

It really can depend on who is telling the story of marginalized groups, why they are telling the story and how the execution is done.

To use one example, Anne with an E was based on a book where the only "diversity" was the odd French Canadian farm hands who were universally depicted as poorly as Margaret Mitchell depicted slaves in Gone With the Wind and one German Jewish traveller that give the titular Anne some hair dye that turned her red hair green. I distinctly remember the last one being brought up in a later book that took place in WWI where another character blasts him as inherently untrustworthy for being German.

When I saw the Season Two trailer I was...wary, because a lot of time we do get tokenized when we get added to media adaptations that were not thought of. But the exact opposite happened with both the black characters introduced and the gay boy they added to Anne's class. Specifically, there's a scene between the main black addition from Trinidad Sebastian and another man from mainland Canada who have a conversation that makes it very, very clear that the writers either did their research very well or even better, hired people within the community to write that dialogue. For those of us who are in that community we got it, as we did with the follow up the next season when Bash's mother comes to Canada and instantly starts treating white folks better than her son and that respective generational trauma is addressed.

Despite how many conservatives have tried to glomp on this series, I have yet to here any backlash the way other shows have for "forced diversity" or "wokeness," either from bad faith actors or from marginalized groups depicted on the show. The timing of Season 3's take on parochial schools with the Inuit and First Nations group is especially notable.

That's a lot of words to say that yes, its entirely possible to bring in diversity in ways that are both meaningful to the group being depicted AND that add to the media being adapted, although personally I'd prefer to see more marginalized people get to tell their own stories rather than be shoehorned into existing media. But since studios are lazy, it is what it is.

 

[Nyotarules]

But speaking as a black woman, I have never, either online or off, met anyone of color who has ever said they couldn't relate to a character because they were white.

As a black woman living in the UK, one could argue we were forced to find a way to relate to what we saw on TV, or else avoid the medium. Especially up to the 1980's it was a big deal to see a black person on TV, especially in a role that was not stereotypical.
This was why Star Trek was a big deal in my house. Black people on TV and they ain't no maid!

 

[Ragitsu]

"Not that there's anything wrong with that."

 

[vulcancicada]

[QUOTE="

(Besides which, Will Riker is Canadian .)
[/QUOTE]

Will Riker is from Alaska. (I need to represent my home state here).

 

[vulcancicada]

(I hit enter by accident) Yes. I completely agree. I think Archer and Trip both display very stereotypical behaviours of Americans in terms of relations with other cultures. Archer's lack of diplomacy has always reminded me of conservative figures in the US government, generally, no one specific. It's the attitude that his viewpoint matters more than anyone else's, or any other culture's. And the inability to detach himself from his emotions, wants, needs, etc. Like getting pissed off that a culture didn't want his dog there, etc. Trip has a bit more curiosity about other cultures but he's judgemental in "cogenitor" and can't see outside his own culture.

 

[Ragitsu]

[QUOTE="

(Besides which, Will Riker is Canadian .)


Will Riker is from Alaska. (I need to represent my home state here).

https://www.trekbbs.com/threads/is-enterprise-the-most-us-centric-trek-series.311830/#post-14209318

 

[vulcancicada]

https://www.trekbbs.com/threads/is-enterprise-the-most-us-centric-trek-series.311830/#post-14209318

I missed this until right after I hit enter, my apologies! It's Alaska's only presence in the Trek universe!

 

[Tallguy]

I missed this until right after I hit enter, my apologies! It's Alaska's only presence in the Trek universe!

They needed more writers like Montana had.