• Welcome! The TrekBBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans.
    If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Is Enterprise Canon?

Status
Not open for further replies.
Any inconsistencies ENT may have with TOS, or any other form of Trek, can be quite easily explained with a line or two of dialogue and a little imagination. And Anwar is right - ENT had no more discontinuity with Trek at large than TOS did with its own self.
 
Court Martial: Kirk serves as an Ensign aboard the Republic.
Obsession: He also is said to be serving with Capt Garrovick on the Farragut since the day he left the academy.

depends on what he meant by "left the Academy". Did he mean graduate? Or conclude his career as an Academy instructor?

If the former: Either Garrovick commanded both vessels, or Kirk's rank of Ensign was given to him while he was on his cadet cruise.

WNMHGB: Kirks middle intial is "R"
Court Martial ( and others): His middle intial is "T"

Most likely: Gary screwed up. (Read Q-Squared for another explanation, though.)



Gary once mentioned "a little blonde lab technician"... ;)



That happened a few times in TOS. Officers would be referred to as a Lieutenant Commander yet wear the insignia of a full Commander. Besides Spock, I think this also happened with Finney (Court-Martial) and Giotto.



Crew sizes can change. No big deal. Perhaps the ship was refit to such a degree that it could accommodate a larger crew?

Spock says Vulcan reproduction is a private matter in "Amok Time" yet talks about it to a stranger in "Cloud Minders".

...okay, I'll give you that one. :)

Isnt 23 a bit young for a Lt Commander?

Watch the closing scene of ST XI and then ask that again. ;)
Of course they can be explained with a little imagination. But the "rules" as set down by Luther Sloan was there had to be a "canon" explanation. Someone or something on screen explaining the error. If they dont then they are not part of the "Core Star Trek Canon." (what ever that is) ;)
 
Any inconsistencies ENT may have with TOS, or any other form of Trek, can be quite easily explained with a line or two of dialogue and a little imagination. And Anwar is right - ENT had no more discontinuity with Trek at large than TOS did with its own self.
As I often say, in a half jokeing manner, ENT is more consistant with TOS than TOS is with TOS.
 
Last edited:
They took a few chances and got nailed for it by fans when it was not something that fit into their perfect little trek universe. How many times have we heard "How could that happen when there was no mention of it in TOS/TNG/ect... And yet the same people cry "They didn't give us anything new."

IMHO some of the chances they took are...
Xindi attack on earth.
Vulcan on a human ship 100 years before Spock.
Showing that some Vulcans are not so honorable.
Anger at Vulcans for "holding humans back".
TCW
Soong/Eugenics/Klingon trilogy

Were those really just chances or were they unacceptable risk with the Trek Time line.

The soong/Eugenics/Klingon Trilogy I consider it just plain smart planning for a prequel but the entire series shouldn't have been episodes of this nature.

Anger at Vulcans for holding humans back.
I thought it was reasonless and forced. It was and normally I find they take risk such as making conflict between allies because they don't know where the conflict will come from otherwise.

Vulcan's have a pretty pristine reputation in Trek. I think fandom has accepted bad vulcans before but an entire planet of them and vulcans we know in the future are...supposedly just a remnant few and a huge coincidence .

A vulcan on a human ship
may have stepped on a few toes but there was nothing wrong with it but there is a thing called diplomacy. Explanation goes along way to settle fans that continuity or may just their perception isn't just being dulldozed unceremoniously.

The Xindi Attack on Earth I found completely unprecedented as well as the Temporal Cold War. It was a High Risk story and the returns were fews if any. They occupied all their series' precious time with this line and I consider it a huge waste. We could have been learning about the Horizon or the USS Essex USS Mariposa...

Neo Transcendentalism
The New world Ecconmy
The Quadros One Probe
The European Hegemony

ENTERPRISE represented a chance to deal creatively with Earth's past which IS STILL our future rather they focused on stories that belong more to the future than the past.

In my opinion they should have STARTED the Series with
The Soong/Eugenics/Klingon Trilogy. It would have been a strong and encouraging beginning. Frankly it would have been the best beginning Trek has ever seen.
 
Anger at Vulcans for holding humans back.
I thought it was reasonless and forced. It was and normally I find they take risk such as making conflict between allies because they don't know where the conflict will come from otherwise.
Actually, given the premise set up in "Broken Bow" about Vulcans mentoring humans for a century -- but at the same time becoming too nanny-ish and taking charge of all the big decisions because they naturally considered themselves better suited than humans to do the thinking -- I thought the antagonism between some humans and Vulcans (not every human was shown as feeling this way) was organic. Plus, to a certain extent, the Vulcans were correct: humans weren't ready to explore deep space. That setup laid the way for a conflict-laden dynamic between the lead characters, which is essential for effective drama.

You can find self-serving, duplicitous, arrogant Vulcans as far back as "Amok Time." It wasn't a case of creating the ENT Vulcans out of whole cloth; there is precedent.

Vulcan's have a pretty pristine reputation in Trek. I think fandom has accepted bad vulcans before but an entire planet of them and vulcans we know in the future are...supposedly just a remnant few and a huge coincidence .
"An entire planet of them"? We only encountered a tiny percentage of Vulcan's population. They were largely members of the VHC, ship commanders, senior scientists, all the way up to Vulcan's top dog V'Las... people firmly entrenched in the system, and with a firm grasp on power. "Absolute power corrupts absolutely." The idea that Vulcans could be corrupted by power was fascinating to me. But I never assumed that all Vulcans were that way, or even most Vulcans.

I'm not clear on what you mean by Vulcans of the future being "just a remnant few and a huge coincidence."

The Xindi Attack on Earth I found completely unprecedented as well as the Temporal Cold War. It was a High Risk story and the returns were fews if any. They occupied all their series' precious time with this line and I consider it a huge waste.
Gotta disagree with you here. Season 3 is my favorite, partly because of the overall story arc, and the chance to see the characters (and the ship) put under increasing pressure as the season went on. On TV, you rarely get the chance to see the consequences of last week's plot. Season 3 of Enterprise was all about critical decisions and their consequences, impossible choices, character being revealed under pressure, characters evolving. I thought it had some terrific storytelling.
 
Last edited:
Gotta disagree with you here. Season 3 is my favorite, partly because of the overall story arc, and the chance to see the characters (and the ship) put under increasing pressure as the season went on. On TV, you rarely get the chance to see the consequences of last week's plot. Season 3 of Enterprise was all about critical decisions and their consequences, impossible choices, character being revealed under pressure, characters evolving. I thought it had some terrific storytelling.

Hopeful Romantic:

Yeah, I would have to partly agree with you here. Although, I later felt that Season 3 was a bit too Dominion War-ish and the Xindi Reptilians were too much like the lizard guys from Galaxy Quest: I still enjoyed this particular over all story arc when it first aired. It was fresh and exhilarating to see the crew so passionate in trying to save their home world. Also, it was emotional seeing it aired a few short years after 9/11, too.
 
That desperation also gave us some of the hardest and most talked about decisions of a captain without resorting to the tired "prime directive" episodes. Two of the first in my mind are taking equipment from a ship and stranding that crew and creating a clone to harvest materials needed to save the engineer. What was really good about the episode where they stranded the alien ship is that in the first episode they were the victim of the same circumstance. It showed how people do change when desperate.
 
Actually, given the premise set up in "Broken Bow" about Vulcans mentoring humans for a century -- but at the same time becoming too nanny-ish and taking charge of all the big decisions because they naturally considered themselves better suited than humans to do the thinking -- I thought the antagonism between some humans and Vulcans (not every human was shown as feeling this way) was organic. Plus, to a certain extent, the Vulcans were correct: humans weren't ready to explore deep space. That setup laid the way for a conflict-laden dynamic between the lead characters, which is essential for effective drama.

22nd century Humans weren't ready to explore the space of the 24th century, I agree. As Spock describes the Romulans and Earth they were more than ready to join the interstellar community.

I found the environment they placed Enterprise in too Advanced and too threatening and incredulously convenient for a Time War Cold War Premise. All these Time Travel stories always attack the past at a point where its marginally capable of fighting back from.

A simple space exploration story about discovery of wonder and new world and civilizations seemed too basic for the producers and they're idea seemed trouble from the get go.

Vulcan Mentoring...Why?
Why would any culture choose to "mentor" another considering the problems of xenophobia? Was it a method of control? With the Vulcan High Command as they portrayed them it doesn't make sense they would genuinely offer their hand to mentor humanity while suppressing their own race. That's a hypocritical plot development Rather they were supposed to be allies, mutual partners not big brother so yes I get the sense that the producer's exposition was mediocre and structureless.
You can find self-serving, duplicitous, arrogant Vulcans as far back as "Amok Time." It wasn't a case of creating the ENT Vulcans out of whole cloth; there is precedent.

This isn't about individuals. I believe that severely understates the condition in ENTEPRISE. The HEADS of the High Command and presumably by force of majority many of that structure and the planets population were adherents to racist attitudes and oppression.

Isn't that like saying the Segregation was only because of a few intolerant Americans that just happened to be white? I say give the situation it's full due. The Vulcans were portrayed just as intolerant of their own people and far from any path of logic in a self evident way. They had an underground and methods that were shunned but we're supposed to believe they were helping humanity out of the kindness of their heart? Sounds like "V" or Independence day.

An entire planet of them"? We only encountered a tiny percentage of Vulcan's population. They were largely members of the VHC, ship commanders, senior scientists, all the way up to Vulcan's top dog V'Las... people firmly entrenched in the system, and with a firm grasp on power. "Absolute power corrupts absolutely." The idea that Vulcans could be corrupted by power was fascinating to me. But I never assumed that all Vulcans were that way, or even most Vulcans.

That is not what is portrayed by Memory Alpha which I source.
The Syrrannites were a group of Vulcans who followed the teachings of Surak closely during the 22nd century. Syrrannites believed that Vulcan culture at the time had become 'corrupt' and no longer followed the original teachings of Surak. Specifically, Syrrannites objected to the militaristic attitude that the Vulcan government had adopted. They also believed that Vulcans had disregarded other basic tenets of Surak's teaching by engaging in frequent deception, distrust, and anger as embodied by the use of the monastery at P'Jem for espionage. The withholding of the truth from allies such as Humans, even though the Syrrannites did not fully accept the presence of non-Vulcans on their planet, was considered another sign of the cultural failings of the time.
I'm not clear on what you mean by Vulcans of the future being "just a remnant few and a huge coincidence."

Vulcan Life Spans are in the range of a couple of hundred years. Assuming two generations at the least raised by this generation how difficult it would have been to change the planet wide stray from logic in about a hundred years and then to the 24th century where the Vulcan's reputation is so solid in logic it appears to have never been any other way for at least many times those life spans old.

No matter the patch job they tried to mend this flawed introduction of the planet full of erring vulcans it just doesn't fit well in Trek, it's not consistent. If it were true then based on the action of the High Command Earth and Vulcan should have been at war shortly after those incidents.

Gotta disagree with you here. Season 3 is my favorite, partly because of the overall story arc, and the chance to see the characters (and the ship) put under increasing pressure as the season went on. On TV, you rarely get the chance to see the consequences of last week's plot.
I can't condone the Temporal Cold war in Enterprise for those reasons. The Dominion Style Arc that drew so many truely should have been left for the Romulan War which was firmly placed in History.

Season 3 of Enterprise was all about critical decisions and their consequences, impossible choices, character being revealed under pressure, characters evolving. I thought it had some terrific storytelling.

I saw contrivance after contrivance after contrivance.
The characters were unconvincing to pull off what these stories required. Blalock and Bakula together couldn't act out a puppet show.

I'm frequently appaled when ever I see Blalock on screen any where else. I assumed her robotic movements and shaky tone were her dipictions of T'pol by direction or actor inspiration...No on SG-1, it was the same. Toneless, shakey and emotionless robotic and bland facial expression. Really creepy.

Mayweather and Hoshi were just as bad and I really wanted to like Travis. Young, intelligent, great voice but really, really unconvincing delivers. Characters are so important because they make the delivery that the story can't do on it's own through space ship battles and fire fights.
 
22nd century Humans weren't ready to explore the space of the 24th century, I agree.
But that is not what I said. I was referring to the setup in "Broken Bow," which takes place in the 22nd century. I have no comment on your view that Enterprise was portrayed as too advanced.

A simple space exploration story about discovery of wonder and new world and civilizations seemed too basic for the producers and they're idea seemed trouble from the get go.
As I understand it, the Temporal Cold War was not part of the producers' premise, but was forced on them by the network to make the show more interesting, or Trek-like, or something.

Why would any culture choose to "mentor" another considering the problems of xenophobia?
The word "mentor" is mine, chosen to describe my own perception of the relationship (and strain) between Vulcans and humans at the outset of the series. I don't believe the term was ever used on the show.

As for why... I would assume the Vulcans considered it a logical course of action to guide a race that had newly acquired warp drive, and all the potential and risks that acquisition entailed.

Was it a method of control? With the Vulcan High Command as they portrayed them it doesn't make sense they would genuinely offer their hand to mentor humanity while suppressing their own race. That's a hypocritical plot development Rather they were supposed to be allies, mutual partners not big brother so yes I get the sense that the producer's exposition was mediocre and structureless.
Also, in "The Forge," Soval admits to Forrest that the Vulcans are actually afraid of humanity and its potential to advance at a far quicker pace than the Vulcans, perhaps even surpassing the Vulcans in the process (which the VHC doesn't seem too keen on). Such a point of view would likely not prevent the Vulcan higher-ups from finding a way to rationalize their "guidance" as perfectly logical.

Looking at the progression of Vulcans and the evolving perception of them by other characters, it seems to me that the producers had an overall "Vulcan arc" figured out from the beginning to explain their "different" Vulcans and eventually steer them onto a path that would lead to the Vulcans of TOS. I understand the producers had planned on more exploration of Vulcans in the 2nd season (perhaps something along the lines of the Season 4 Vulcan arc? just a guess), but were told by the network, "Less Vulcan shows." So it appears to me that the producers did have a structure in place for the evolution of the Vulcans (as characters), but it was derailed for a couple of seasons.

The HEADS of the High Command and presumably by force of majority many of that structure and the planets population were adherents to racist attitudes and oppression.
Not having seen every member of the Vulcan population, I cannot come to the conclusion that there was a planetwide racist attitude. The series showed us V'Lar, the diplomat who does not appear at all racist, but open-minded about many things. Also the emotionally free V'tosh Katur, who quite clearly had bucked the party line. And the Syrrannites, who followed the ancient ways of Surak, including melding. T'Pau wasn't wild about humans, but I don't think her attitude was based on racism. She was part of an oppressed band of rebels; her suspicious attitude could have been a survival tactic.

That is not what is portrayed by Memory Alpha which I source.
I use Enterprise as my source.

Memory Alpha articles are written by volunteers, correct? So those articles, even with their empirical data, sometimes are incomplete, or contain conjecture or subjective conclusions.

Vulcan Life Spans are in the range of a couple of hundred years. Assuming two generations at the least raised by this generation how difficult it would have been to change the planet wide stray from logic in about a hundred years and then to the 24th century where the Vulcan's reputation is so solid in logic it appears to have never been any other way for at least many times those life spans old.
If Vulcans saw the Awakening as a logical course, I assume change would come very quickly to most. The holdouts would likely be the power-wielding higher-ups like Adminstrator V'Las and the VHC, who would stand to gain little and lose much by returning to their Surakian roots. There's a post-Vulcan-arc episode, maybe part of the Andorian arc, which makes passing mention of T'Pau sacking a bunch of VHC officials and ship captains.

I can't condone the Temporal Cold war in Enterprise for those reasons.
I was not attempting to get you to condone anything; I wasn't referring to the TCW. I was expressing my personal opinion about the effectiveness of the story structure of Season 3.

The Dominion Style Arc that drew so many truely should have been left for the Romulan War which was firmly placed in History.
Since Enterprise was cancelled before they got to the Romulan War, I'm really happy they didn't wait. :biggrin:

I saw contrivance after contrivance after contrivance.
The characters were unconvincing to pull off what these stories required. Blalock and Bakula together couldn't act out a puppet show.
Dude, we really disagree on this. :lol: Different strokes, I guess.
 
A simple space exploration story about discovery of wonder and new world and civilizations seemed too basic for the producers and they're idea seemed trouble from the get go.
As I understand it, the Temporal Cold War was not part of the producers' premise, but was forced on them by the network to make the show more interesting, or Trek-like, or something.

Well, that is about half-right. While the producer's intent with the show was for Enterprise to be cruising and exploring, UPN wanted more futuristic things in it (because, apparently the 22nd century isn't futuristic enough). As a result, B&B went back and developed the TCW to please the network's request. So, it wasn't like the network directly said "Hey, include this plot line we have developed for you."

However, UPN did demand that the transporter to be included in the show (something B&B were not planning to have).
 
^^ Thanks for the clarification. When I hear this or that piece of info years after the fact, sometimes it's like playing "telephone." ;)
 
I can't believe some people dislike the Xindi story. That was the time Enterprise stepped out of the shadow of other Treks, when the crew went on a real adventure and did their own thing. It was when the show went from being shameful garbage ("Fusion" et al) to being an exciting show worthy of the name Star Trek. It wasn't perfect, but I loved it.

IMO the Xindi were *far* more interesting aliens than the Romulans. Yeah the "Lizard men" were cheesy, but it was a *fun* cheesy. The giant ants were fantastic.

Sometimes I think some people's idea of a perfect Star Trek episode is an hour of non-contradictory technical data scrolling up the screen.
 
Yeah, I have come to a new conclusion on Enterprise in regards to it's canon.

Enterprise as we all know is officially confirmed as being canon by the studio. However, I now believe that the interpretation of Enterprise's existence within the Star Trek universe is actually fanon, though.

Some folks believe Enterprise to be a part of the Prime Time Line flawlessly and other people believe it to be an Altered First Contact Time Line and or Temporal Cold War Time Line.

In other words, there is no 100% concrete proof on either side of the argument, despite how greener things may look on one side or the other.

So although Enterprise is canon. It's actual existence in the minds of fans is actually fanon.


Sources:
http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Canon
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.
If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Sign up / Register


Back
Top