Eight of them were me
Is Discovery the most polarizing Trek property ever?
- Thread starter TheMadCloner
- Start date
Eight of them were me
I remember lots of complaints about the way the Vulcans were portrayed---and me spending too much time debating those complaints.
And the Klingons, and Lorca, and Burnham being Sarek's ward...on and on.
Say what you will about ENT (and many will) but it never hit the place of me wanting to debate it. It was just was boring and not engaging in anyway.
I became an Admiral in this place by debating Enterprise. (Pro)
I quit watching ENT near the end of season 3. I'd given up on the show much earlier that season. It was the first Star Trek TV show I had ever lost interest in. Discovery is the second, after only nine episodes.
Interesting contrast...DSC is the first Trek show since Next Gen that I HAVEN'T sort of given up on after a notional 12-13 episodes. And, I probably only stuck with TNG because I was in 7th grade and it was the first new Trek series I'd ever seen in the original run.
In fairness, I returned to DS9 first-run off and on over the years (and did a binge soup-to-nuts rewatch about 6 years ago), but I just this year finally watched all of ENT (which I liked) and I'm only now watching VOY, which I've come to realize I probably only saw about 15% of first run. There are entire VOY seasons I never saw an episode of. Pretty cool to be rediscovering all that now.
Contrast all of this to TOS, which I've been watching before I can remember (I think I was literally 3) and I still watch every episode over and over again. And DSC episodes get watched twice each before the next fresh episode airs.
Different tastes I guess.
Last edited:
Darren Amato
11/18/90
It seems to me that many of the posters on this newsgroup pull apart
every episode of TNG and harp on what the didn't like about it. And in
the wrap up of the postings they decide that it wasn't a good episode.
This seems to be the general trend of EVERY episode lately. If you don't
like the show then why do you continue to watch it? It would seem
to me that if one didn't enjoy a TV show after viewing 5 or 6 shows,
that they might consider not watching it anymore.
Roland Khorshidianzadeh, a.k.a. "Lord Garth"
1/25/18 (Post #211 in this thread)
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Shit. I'm too reasonable of a person for TrekBBS. I did what made sense according to this person.
I can't tell you how much reading those old postings changed my perspective on...well....everything we've been discussing and debating here.
And I'm different. I didn't get in to TNG until the series finale, and kind of worked my way back. DS9 lost me after a couple of episodes, but got me back with "Trials and Tribble-ations." VOY I was ready for, only to loose interest after the second episode when the Kazon failed to be appreciable villains.
DISCO is the first Trek TV series in a long while that makes me go "Yes, show me more of this world" like "The Cage" did.
I can honestly say I've seen every Trek series from their beginning. TOS was amazing because there had never been anything like it. TNG got off to a shaky start, but found its legs and finished strong. DS9 suffered from uneven storytelling, but I enjoyed it overall. VOY tried my patience with its love of the Big Giant Reset Button storytelling crutch. ENT lost me with the Temporal Cold War nonsense that never went anywhere. I hear season 4 was its strongest, but I simply don't give a damn. DISCO, for me, is a dumpster fire. They seem to be trying too hard, doing too much, while trying to be too different, yet desperate to be faptastically fanwanky all at the same time. Twists are telegraphed rather than foreshadowed, and seem to exist merely for the sake of throwing in a twist. It's rubbish storytelling, and that's saying something for a franchise that produced "Spock's Brain."
One man's trash is another man's treasure, I guess.
Sorry that you see dumpster fires and rubbish where others see fun and entertaining stuff (for the first time in a while for me).
A clear indication that human beings indeed have different tastes.
Yep, that's why I qualified my dumpster fire comment with "for me." Totally subjective, my view and I don't pretend to speak for anyone else. Different strokes for different folks, as they used to say. I'm glad you and others are enjoying DISCO.
I actually truly hope that once S1 is in the books and S2 is produced without the adversity of creative and production upheaval that made S1 a bit "polarizing," that more of the broader Trek fan base feels better and jumps in.
While I admittedly am enjoying the hell out of myself, I certainly see the flaws and know why some people are disappointed. I truly believe there's enough foundational goodness for that broader appeal to happen, though.
Humans are not logical
.That is why I posted it. Interesting to go back in time and look at debates from back when the shows were airing.
I am with you. I am enjoying the show but you can tell at places where all the changes behind the scene affected the how. It will be interesting to see what season 2 without that problem will look like.
Hi I am new here and this is an interesting discussion.
I think in terms of polarization, meaning fans like it or hate it, I'd say objectively TNG originally was more controversial, because of what many have already said. My take specifically is because TNG was the first spin off ever, and many felt like TNG was replacing TOS. Now, of course, TNG is arguably almost as beloved (at least by long time fans like me who remember TNG in first run) at TOS. So perhaps right NOW, Discovery is more divisive, but back in the day, I'd say TNG was more divisive.
Now, as far as Enterprise, I think it was controversial, but I think it was more met with fans being burnt out on the Berman era and apathy. There are some who hate it outright, but I think people who didn't like Enterprise in first run were more apathetic than anything.
It is interesting to me that people think Star Trek 2009 was very controversial and divisive. I don't see it that way. All but the most hard core fans seemed to accept it, but I think overall the movie was well-received. If there was a divisive Abrams era movie, I would point to Into Darkness as the one people were polarized over. Some loved it, but many out and out hated it. I am sad to say I was one of those who hated Into Darkness. I have since come to accept it, and like it on some level, but it was pretty polarizing.
Now, with Discovery, I would say after TNG, Discovery is probably the most polarizing. Fans who like it, seem to love it, fans who don't really have a negative reaction to it. On some levels, Discovery is iconoclastic, and destroys many conventions that came before, and goes further than even DS9 did. I will respect fans who like it, but it is not my cup of tea personally. The things Discovery contends with that the other shows don't is that:
a) you had a vocal (if not a minority) backlash against CBS and Discovery for the legal action and guidelines against fan films. whether or not you agree with CBS on that, it was controversial nonetheless, and I think some fans took their frustration out on CBS by boycotting Discovery.
b) Discovery not only turns tradition Trek conventions on its ear, but also seems to be a reboot in spirit if not in name and throws much of what came before to the wind, and that has angered a segment of Trekfandom.. I don't know if that is a majority or minority, but either way, it is a significant portion of fans.
c) Star Trek Discovery is the first show that has not only a lot more sci fi, fantasy, and just binge watch shows to compete against, but it also has Orville to compete against, at some level. Maybe its not apples to apples, but for someone like me, Orville fills the void left by the absence of the Berman era of Trek, which is an era I remember very fondly. Orville is a tribute to that era, whereas Discovery does its best to forget that era. In any event, you have a Star Trek series running away from many of the core tenants of what makes a Star Trek series Star Trek, and you have a non-Star Trek series that embraces those tenants, and seems more like a Star Trek series people like myself remember and love.
Indeed, to me, Orville is a Star Trek series all in but name, but Discovery is a Star Trek series in name only. I don't say that to be insulting, and I hope it is not taken that way, but that is how I feel.
I think in terms of polarization, meaning fans like it or hate it, I'd say objectively TNG originally was more controversial, because of what many have already said. My take specifically is because TNG was the first spin off ever, and many felt like TNG was replacing TOS. Now, of course, TNG is arguably almost as beloved (at least by long time fans like me who remember TNG in first run) at TOS. So perhaps right NOW, Discovery is more divisive, but back in the day, I'd say TNG was more divisive.
Now, as far as Enterprise, I think it was controversial, but I think it was more met with fans being burnt out on the Berman era and apathy. There are some who hate it outright, but I think people who didn't like Enterprise in first run were more apathetic than anything.
It is interesting to me that people think Star Trek 2009 was very controversial and divisive. I don't see it that way. All but the most hard core fans seemed to accept it, but I think overall the movie was well-received. If there was a divisive Abrams era movie, I would point to Into Darkness as the one people were polarized over. Some loved it, but many out and out hated it. I am sad to say I was one of those who hated Into Darkness. I have since come to accept it, and like it on some level, but it was pretty polarizing.
Now, with Discovery, I would say after TNG, Discovery is probably the most polarizing. Fans who like it, seem to love it, fans who don't really have a negative reaction to it. On some levels, Discovery is iconoclastic, and destroys many conventions that came before, and goes further than even DS9 did. I will respect fans who like it, but it is not my cup of tea personally. The things Discovery contends with that the other shows don't is that:
a) you had a vocal (if not a minority) backlash against CBS and Discovery for the legal action and guidelines against fan films. whether or not you agree with CBS on that, it was controversial nonetheless, and I think some fans took their frustration out on CBS by boycotting Discovery.
b) Discovery not only turns tradition Trek conventions on its ear, but also seems to be a reboot in spirit if not in name and throws much of what came before to the wind, and that has angered a segment of Trekfandom.. I don't know if that is a majority or minority, but either way, it is a significant portion of fans.
c) Star Trek Discovery is the first show that has not only a lot more sci fi, fantasy, and just binge watch shows to compete against, but it also has Orville to compete against, at some level. Maybe its not apples to apples, but for someone like me, Orville fills the void left by the absence of the Berman era of Trek, which is an era I remember very fondly. Orville is a tribute to that era, whereas Discovery does its best to forget that era. In any event, you have a Star Trek series running away from many of the core tenants of what makes a Star Trek series Star Trek, and you have a non-Star Trek series that embraces those tenants, and seems more like a Star Trek series people like myself remember and love.
Indeed, to me, Orville is a Star Trek series all in but name, but Discovery is a Star Trek series in name only. I don't say that to be insulting, and I hope it is not taken that way, but that is how I feel.
I'm sorry but, for me, Orville is a hollow pastiche of what made Trek great, but with crass sexual & potty jokes and meta references to TV shows like Seinfeld thrown in. It's really jarring to me and turns me off the good dramatic aspects of it. Some of the cast are solid, and there's some decent adventuring and world-building happening. However, it also is even less subtle than TNG with its heavy handed moralizing speeches and 'lessons'. Where some people see a nice homage, I see a bad knock off. And not of all Trek series, just TNG. Discovery is not a carbon copy with Seth's flavor added to it. Thank god. But those who like Orville can get a good nostalgic fix from it. Those that enjoy both can get a double fix. I envy them. I tried to like Orville but its humorous side is just not for me.
I prefer being excited by something new and challenging. Something which pushes the envelope while still keeping within the Trek-verse. A show that updates itself in ways that makes it seem modern and engaging in terms of what's happening now, not 20 years in the past. Does it sometimes fall flat in what it attempts to do? Yep, but at least it's not playing it safe. Or relying on dry humping or penis gags.
I think Discovery is far less controversial than people would like to believe. It seems to be doing very well critically, awards-wise and in terms of viewers. Yes, there's a lot of debate about it and some negative nitpicking, but as others have pointed out, this is common with newer iterations of Trek shows. As long as it continues to produce buzz and be talked about and keeps generating new fans, it may well stand the test of time like TNG and DS9 did. But then again, it might go the way of ENT. I guess we shall have to wait and see.
Nevertheless, for this viewer, at least, Disco is hitting that sweet spot where I'm excited to see the next weekly installment of the story and spend far too much time talking about it/speculating online with other fans than is probably healthy.
I prefer being excited by something new and challenging. Something which pushes the envelope while still keeping within the Trek-verse. A show that updates itself in ways that makes it seem modern and engaging in terms of what's happening now, not 20 years in the past. Does it sometimes fall flat in what it attempts to do? Yep, but at least it's not playing it safe. Or relying on dry humping or penis gags.
I think Discovery is far less controversial than people would like to believe. It seems to be doing very well critically, awards-wise and in terms of viewers. Yes, there's a lot of debate about it and some negative nitpicking, but as others have pointed out, this is common with newer iterations of Trek shows. As long as it continues to produce buzz and be talked about and keeps generating new fans, it may well stand the test of time like TNG and DS9 did. But then again, it might go the way of ENT. I guess we shall have to wait and see.
Nevertheless, for this viewer, at least, Disco is hitting that sweet spot where I'm excited to see the next weekly installment of the story and spend far too much time talking about it/speculating online with other fans than is probably healthy.
I'm glad you pointed this out. I'm often impressed at how completely the release of Into Darkness (and the massive fan backlash against it) has rewritten the history of Star Trek 2009. At the time 2009 came out, the vast majority of us, especially here at the BBS, thought it was pretty good and held a lot of promise for what came next. We were very taken with Leonard Nimoy's Spock and pleased that the creators had invested so much effort in preserving prior canon (while still setting their own path). There were certainly dissidents, but it seemed to me that they were a fairly clear minority.
Then Into Darkness happened, it validated a great many of the complaints of the anti-Abrams fans, and suddenly everyone had always hated the Abrams movies.
Discovery arrived in the context of a fandom that is already suspicious of and often hostile toward overt attempts to "modernize" Trek, especially if that modernization looks and feels (and sounds) like an Abramization. Into Darkness and to some extent Beyond burned away a lot of goodwill and a lot of optimism -- and nobody involved with Discovery seemed to notice that, so they drove right into the teeth of a very predictable fan backlash.
I am sincerely glad for you that you are enjoying Discovery. I remember feeling that way with TNG and DS9 in first run, all those years ago, and I know the excitement you are describing. While Discovery doesn't do that for me personally, I am glad for those who do enjoy it.
Now as to withstanding the test of time....well we will see. However, I think in this day and age, that is a tall order. I rather doubt Discovery will be as endeared to fans as previous Trek has been. Not that it is the show itself, but I think we live in a time where everything is disposable. It is viewed, talked about for a few years, then forgotten. And I think that is what will happen with Discovery. I am sad to say that has largely happened with Voyager and Enterprise, and to an extent, DS9. We are seeing the beginnings of that with the Abrams era of Star Trek now, especially since it is still up in the air if we will get a 4th movie. I will be happy if I am wrong, but I think something similar will happen to Discovery.
Now as to withstanding the test of time....well we will see. However, I think in this day and age, that is a tall order. I rather doubt Discovery will be as endeared to fans as previous Trek has been. Not that it is the show itself, but I think we live in a time where everything is disposable. It is viewed, talked about for a few years, then forgotten. And I think that is what will happen with Discovery. I am sad to say that has largely happened with Voyager and Enterprise, and to an extent, DS9. We are seeing the beginnings of that with the Abrams era of Star Trek now, especially since it is still up in the air if we will get a 4th movie. I will be happy if I am wrong, but I think something similar will happen to Discovery.
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