Insurrection

[BillJ]

How would they know if you make a settlement on the other side of the planet?

But isn't relocating to the ring planet the same as today having to move next to the factory that makes your medicine?

If you need insulin, it gets shipped to you (or your pharmacy), you don't have live where it's made.

******

Picard was attracted to the Baku life style, would a modern 24th century community have been as desirable to him, even if on the same planet?

I've always thought it made no sense for Picard to admire the Baku lifestyle the way he did. Picard was never shown as some back to nature traditionalist. If anything, that was his brother's philosophy more than his. TV series Picard might have been "to each their own," but wouldn't have been charmed by it the way movie Picard seemed to be.

Picard was all over the place late in TNG and in the movies. I started missing the "I spell knife with an 'N'" Picard.

 

[T'Girl]

Picard did make a comment like, "remember when we were still explorers?"

Exactly where Insurrection fits into the overall Star Trek time line isn't clear, however the Federation either just was, or was currently, fighting a brutial war with the Dominion. Yes we did see her performing a diplomatic mission, and there was talk of a science mission, but it's unlikely that the Enterprise saw no action, and experienced no deaths.

Picard certainly would have read the lists of dead and wounded.

So his dreamy eyed view of the Baku quaint village could have come from there. He was tried of war. Even to the point (in a deleted scene) were he said he wouldn't permit anyone to build any settlement elsewhere on the planet. No one, no "outlanders," would be allowed to come to the ring planet and receive the benefits of the rings, only the Baku could do so in Picard's eyes.

And of coure himself while on leave.

 

[sonak]

Picard did make a comment like, "remember when we were still explorers?"

Exactly where Insurrection fits into the overall Star Trek time line isn't clear, however the Federation either just was, or was currently, fighting a brutial war with the Dominion. Yes we did see her performing a diplomatic mission, and there was talk of a science mission, but it's unlikely that the Enterprise saw no action, and experienced no deaths.

Picard certainly would have read the lists of dead and wounded.

So his dreamy eyed view of the Baku quaint village could have come from there. He was tried of war. Even to the point (in a deleted scene) were he said he wouldn't permit anyone to build any settlement elsewhere on the planet. No one, no "outlanders," would be allowed to come to the ring planet and receive the benefits of the rings, only the Baku could do so in Picard's eyes.

And of coure himself while on leave.

wow, so the deleted scenes make Picard out to be even more of an ass than he already was in the released movie.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

Once word gets out, the UFP would be defending the Baku against the Romulans,

Assuming the Romulans would want to risk violating the Neutral Zone and starting a war anyway. Depending on where that is in relation to the Baku planet

the Ferengi,

The Ferengi are going to bring military force on someone? Really? The most they would do would be to try to buy the Baku off.

the Cardassians

Are either at war with the federation or rebuilding their smoking ruin of a homeworld with millions dead depending on the timeline, I doubt they would spare the resources of either seeing as in once case the Starfleet will already shoot them on sight and the other they need federation support just to keep their empire from collapsing.

Of course all this rests on whether or not ALIEN civilizations would care about a fountain of youth

,.... etc. You think if a "fountain of youth" were discovered on Earth there wouldn't be some competition for it?

Yes but on Earth we would have a better idea where the various borders would be in relation to said fountain as well as a more accurate assessment of the political landscape of the area seeing as how their Neutral zones that violation of are an act of war and interstellar wars and the rebuilding in the aftermath of such at that point in the Star Trek universe.

 

[T'Girl]

Once word gets out, the UFP would be defending the Baku against the Romulans,

Assuming the Romulans would want to risk violating the Neutral Zone and starting a war anyway. Depending on where that is in relation to the Baku planet

At different times in the (Star Trek) past, the Brier Patch has been both Romulan and Klingon territories. Both might not have originally tried particularly hard to retain it, believing the region to be worthless. But things are different now, a pearl of great value is found there.

Risk war? Of course they would.

From the (deleted) scene, the information on the rings was already out. Quark likely knew of the medical properties of the rings prior to Data being damaged.

The Ferengi are going to bring military force on someone? Really? The most they would do would be to try to buy the Baku off.

Or steal it in the dead of night, without any attempt to protect the Baku like the Sona and the Federation were doing.

Not all Ferengi are as nice as Quark, and some have been shown to employ force to get what they want.

Of course all this rests on whether or not ALIEN civilizations would care about a fountain of youth

The motivations of various alien species are largely the same as Humans. The exceptions are exceptions.

You think if a "fountain of youth" were discovered on Earth there wouldn't be some competition for it?

Yes but on Earth we would have a better idea where the various borders would be in relation to said fountain ...

Okay, let's say that the "Fountain" is located right in the middle of the Kashmir region, an area simultaneously claimed by China, India and Pakistan. All three possessing nuclear weapons.

Or maybe it's in Israel, or on Taiwan. Or one of the African nations whose only current defense is that they don't have anything the anyone wants.

Might be time for a well financed regime change.

seeing as how their Neutral zones that violation of are an act of war and interstellar wars and the rebuilding in the aftermath of such at that point in the Star Trek universe.

In a universe where people will kill you for your shoes, what effect do you think a fountain of youth (one that is collectable, portable and capable of being sub-divided) will have on people after the knowledge of it becomes generally known?

 

[BillJ]

In a universe where people will kill you for your shoes, what effect do you think a fountain of youth (one that is collectable, portable and capable of being sub-divided) will have on people after the knowledge of it becomes generally known?

This has been my position for years. Once the secret about the planet gets out, the Ba'ku become a major pain in the ass for the Federation/Starfleet. And whomever comes calling for those particles the next time may not care whether the Ba'ku live or die in the process of extraction.

They go back to being mortal, but their culture will go on. It won't get eradicated.

 

[sonak]

In a universe where people will kill you for your shoes, what effect do you think a fountain of youth (one that is collectable, portable and capable of being sub-divided) will have on people after the knowledge of it becomes generally known?

This has been my position for years. Once the secret about the planet gets out, the Ba'ku become a major pain in the ass for the Federation/Starfleet. And whomever comes calling for those particles the next time may not care whether the Ba'ku live or die in the process of extraction.

They go back to being mortal, but their culture will go on. It won't get eradicated.

actually, with only 600 to make up their "culture," without the fountain of youth they're screwed.

Again, the movie makes no sense from a larger perspective. The whole thing is a classic example of fridge logic. WHY is Starfleet going to defend a group of 600 that aren't part of the Federation and aren't contributing anything? Realistically, they wouldn't. The only reason Picard could use to justify doing so was that Dougherty was already involving the Federation.

So, as BillJ usually brings up in these threads on INS, you're left with two options:


1. The Federation agrees to round-the-clock defense of the Baku(a neutral party that is hoarding a resource that would greatly help the Federation) for no real reason. If you pick this option, explain why they'd do this for the Baku and not other peaceful, vulnerable neutral groups.

2. After the events in the film, the Federation leaves the Baku alone. Explain why every major power in the quadrant doesn't come and either remove or attack the Baku with force.(agrarian pacifists in possession of a coveted resource don't do well historically)


That's why this film fails, in addition to the bad humor and not being very interesting, it's just badly written, with logic holes and plot holes all over the place.

 

[JarodRussell]

2. After the events in the film, the Federation leaves the Baku alone. Explain why every major power in the quadrant doesn't come and either remove or attack the Baku with force.(agrarian pacifists in possession of a coveted resource don't do well historically)

They never get to know about it.

 

[sonak]

2. After the events in the film, the Federation leaves the Baku alone. Explain why every major power in the quadrant doesn't come and either remove or attack the Baku with force.(agrarian pacifists in possession of a coveted resource don't do well historically)

They never get to know about it.

er, so the Federation Council, the Son'a, all those Starfleet observers we saw at the beginning, the Enterprise crew, etc. all agree to participate in a massive cover-up, huh?

How noble. Not very realistic, either-conspiracies of silence don't tend to last for long, especially in an age of mass, instant communications.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

2. After the events in the film, the Federation leaves the Baku alone. Explain why every major power in the quadrant doesn't come and either remove or attack the Baku with force.(agrarian pacifists in possession of a coveted resource don't do well historically)

They never get to know about it.

er, so the Federation Council, the Son'a, all those Starfleet observers we saw at the beginning, the Enterprise crew, etc. all agree to participate in a massive cover-up, huh?

Yeah, I mean its not like the federation didn't bother to tell anyone about genesis before Khan set it off right....

Oh, wait.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

In a universe where people will kill you for your shoes, what effect do you think a fountain of youth (one that is collectable, portable and capable of being sub-divided) will have on people after the knowledge of it becomes generally known?

This has been my position for years. Once the secret about the planet gets out, the Ba'ku become a major pain in the ass for the Federation/Starfleet. And whomever comes calling for those particles the next time may not care whether the Ba'ku live or die in the process of extraction.

They go back to being mortal, but their culture will go on. It won't get eradicated.

Or they may just wait and see how the federation's possible study of the rings would go and just steal that information or just outright offer something for it, less trouble that way seeing as you don't need a fleet to travel very close to federation space which they might attack even if they weren't defending the Baku since you know automatic act of war in some cases and everything.

 

[sonak]

They never get to know about it.

er, so the Federation Council, the Son'a, all those Starfleet observers we saw at the beginning, the Enterprise crew, etc. all agree to participate in a massive cover-up, huh?

Yeah, I mean its not like the federation didn't bother to tell anyone about genesis before Khan set it off right....

Oh, wait.

nice try, but Genesis was a classified Starfleet project from the beginning. That would be covered by their oaths as officers not to give out classified info.


The Briar Patch ring magic isn't a classified Starfleet project, nor are the Son'a members of Starfleet. Why would they and Starfleet officers agree to cover-up in order to protect the Baku's selfish lifestyle?

 

[Hartzilla2007]

The Briar Patch ring magic isn't a classified Starfleet project, nor are the Son'a members of Starfleet. Why would they and Starfleet officers agree to cover-up

Well the Son'a probably don't want to have annoying people with fleets going around claiming everything they see bothering them seeing as they live there now I mean subspace weapons used to blow them to hell if they start shooting don't grow on trees.

in order to protect the Baku's selfish lifestyle?

There you go making moral judgments about people based on their reasonable reactions to being spied on and almost kidnapped in their sleep.

 

[JarodRussell]

The Briar Patch ring magic isn't a classified Starfleet project

It's not? In the film they say that the Federation public doesn't know about it, and that not even the Council really knows what's going on, and Picard only gets to know what the "anomalies" in the Briar Patch are because he gets the Enterprise there uninvited. The fountain of youth effect of the metaphasic radiation was something the Enterprise crew found out for themselves, they weren't told about it.

nor are the Son'a members of Starfleet.

The Son'a are a group of shady individuals that supply the Dominion with Ketracell white, used illegal weapons, and only hopped in bed with the Federation because the planet was in their territory. The Son'a certainly kept it a secret, as they also told Starfleet only what they needed to know.

Why would they and Starfleet officers agree to cover-up in order to protect the Baku's selfish lifestyle?

Because they probably don't see it as "selfish".

 

[BillJ]

...and that not even the Council really knows what's going ...

No where does the film say that.

 

[sonak]

The Briar Patch ring magic isn't a classified Starfleet project

It's not? In the film they say that the Federation public doesn't know about it, and that not even the Council really knows what's going on, and Picard only gets to know what the "anomalies" in the Briar Patch are because he gets the Enterprise there uninvited. The fountain of youth effect of the metaphasic radiation was something the Enterprise crew found out for themselves, they weren't told about it.

nor are the Son'a members of Starfleet.

The Son'a are a group of shady individuals that supply the Dominion with Ketracell white, used illegal weapons, and only hopped in bed with the Federation because the planet was in their territory. The Son'a certainly kept it a secret, as they also told Starfleet only what they needed to know.

Why would they and Starfleet officers agree to cover-up in order to protect the Baku's selfish lifestyle?

Because they probably don't see it as "selfish".

yes, the REMOVAL of the Baku was kept secret for obvious reasons, but the resource itself COULDN'T have stayed secret, because they eventually planned to have the Federation population as a whole use it. ( even if they planned to put the magic particles in the drinking water secretly or something like that, don't you think that when blind folks started re-growing eyes and boobs started to magically firm-up, questions would be asked?)

 

[Hartzilla2007]

yes, the REMOVAL of the Baku was kept secret for obvious reasons, but the resource itself COULDN'T have stayed secret, because they eventually planned to have the Federation population as a whole use it. ( even if they planned to put the magic particles in the drinking water secretly or something like that, don't you think that when blind folks started re-growing eyes and boobs started to magically firm-up, questions would be asked?)

I don't know we are talking about a civilization that once invented a device that could make planets and resurrect the dead, so people might just assume the federation created something else with their magic super science, especially since that accidently found something similar with the transporter.

 

[T'Girl]

Well the Son'a probably don't want to have annoying people with fleets going around claiming everything they see bothering them seeing as they live there now

What do you mean "they" live there now? We saw a single Sona going to visit his mother at the end of the movie.

 

[Phily B]

In the video game sequel i think starfleet builds a starbase to protect it.

 

[sonak]

In the video game sequel i think starfleet builds a starbase to protect it.

see, that's what I figured was the answer they'd go with-protection from Starfleet. Which is just asinine-if Starfleet is going to protect them militarily, they should incorporate the Baku into the UFP, which would of course give them access to the system's resources.

And if they're not incorporating them into the UFP, then WHY are they intervening in this issue? I mean, they wouldn't lift a finger to help the Bajorans against the Cardassians, but here they'll devote resources to the Baku's defense.

Our "heroes" ladies and gentlemen-they won't try to stop an occupation resulting in mass oppression, forced labor, and slavery, but they'll go out of their way to protect a small village that's hoarding a valuable medical resource from having to give up their privileged lifestyle.